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CaptainFarkus

How can the trinity be one God?

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I'm not understanding how the trinity is one God. If you have three divine persons with three divine minds and three divine wills you have by definition three divine gods. The trinity isn't even supported by scripture. We must recognize that Jesus is in every way subordinate to God(who is the Father).  It is the Father who gave the Son life(John 5:26).  It's the Father who gives Jesus his authority and power(John 3:35)(Matthew 28:18-20)(Matthew 11:27)(Phillipians 2:9)(Ephesians 1:20)(John 17:1-3).  The Father is the God of Jesus as well(Ephesians 1:17)(Revelation 1:6)(1 Peter 1:3)(John 20:17)(Romans 15:6)(2 Corinthians 1:3)(2 Corinthians 11:31).  Jesus doesn't know the hour, but the Father only(Mark 13:32)(Matthew 24:36).  Also, Jesus prayed to the Father on multiple occasions.

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Dear Captain,

Below are the beliefs of the site, if you show you are asking a real question, truly looking for understanding , you are welcome.  IF you have come here for the purpose of battling this is not the place for you.  The ball is in your court what say you? 

 

 

The doctrine of our staff is summarized in the following paragraphs:

 

  • The Bible, having been inspired by God, is entirely trustworthy and without error. Therefore, we are to believe and obey its teachings. The Bible is the only source of special revelation for the church today.
  • The one true God is personal, yet beyond our comprehension. He is an invisible spirit, completely self-sufficient and unbounded by space or time, perfectly holy and just, and loving and merciful. In the unity of the Godhead there are three “persons”: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
  • God created the heavens and the earth, and all they contain. He upholds and governs them in accordance with his eternal will. God is sovereign (in complete control) yet this does not diminish human responsibility.
  • Because of the sin of the first man, Adam, all mankind is corrupt by nature, dead in sin, and subject to the wrath of God. But God determined, by a covenant of grace, that sinners may receive forgiveness and eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ. Faith in Christ has always been the only way of salvation, in both Old Testament and New Testament times.
  • The Son of God took upon himself a human nature in the womb of the virgin Mary, so that in her son Jesus the divine and human natures were united in one person. Jesus Christ lived a sinless life and died on a cross, bearing the sins of, and receiving God’s wrath for, all those who trust in him for salvation (his chosen ones). He rose from the dead and ascended into heaven, where he sits as Lord and rules over his kingdom (the church). He will return to judge the living and the dead, bringing his people (with glorious, resurrected bodies) into eternal life, and consigning the wicked to eternal punishment.
  • Those whom God has predestined unto life are effectually drawn to Christ by the inner working of the Spirit as they hear the gospel. When they believe in Christ, God declares them righteous (justifies them), pardoning their sins and accepting them as righteous, not because of any righteousness of their own, but by imputing Christ’s merits to them. They are adopted as the children of God and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, who sanctifies them, enabling them increasingly to stop sinning and act righteously. They repent of their sins (both at their conversion and thereafter), produce good works as the fruit of their faith, and persevere to the end in communion with Christ, with assurance of their salvation.
  • Believers strive to keep God’s moral law, which is summarized in the Ten Commandments, not to earn salvation, but because they love their Savior and want to obey him. God is the Lord of the conscience, so that men are not required to believe or do anything contrary to, or in addition to, the Word of God in matters of faith or worship.
  • Christ has established his church, and particular churches, to gather and perfect his people, by means of the ministry of the Word, the sacraments of baptism (which is to be administered to the children of believers, as well as believers) and the Lord’s Supper (in which the body and blood of Christ are spiritually present to the faith of believers), and the disciplining of members found delinquent in doctrine or life. Christians assemble on the Lord’s Day to worship God by praying, hearing the Word of God read and preached, singing psalms and hymns, and receiving the sacraments.

 

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Becky has asked the question about motives - i thought about waiting to see what your response would be but then i thought I would address the points you raise anyway because even you don't find them helpful, someone else might :RpS_thumbup:

 

You begin:

53 minutes ago, CaptainFarkus said:

I'm not understanding how the trinity is one God. If you have three divine persons with three divine minds and three divine wills you have by definition three divine gods.

Statements like reveal a certain degree of ignorance in regards to what Christians actually teach in regards to the Trinity. We teach that there is one being who is God, and that their are three divine persons who are co-equal and co-eternal who are that one being - hence God is not 'three' in the same way as he is 'one'. 

 

Let's talk about 'persons' first of all - The personhood of each member of the Trinity means that each Person has a distinct center of consciousness. Thus, they relate to each other personally — the Father regards himself as “I” while he regards the Son and Holy Spirit as “you.” Likewise, the Son regards himself as “I,” but the Father and the Holy Spirit as “you.” And the Spirit regards himself as "I" while he regards the Father and the Son as "You." 

 

Know let's talk about the 'oneness' of God - the Bible is clear that there is only one God, hence we must conclude that these three persons are one being (or one essence). 

 

This really isn't any harder to accept then the idea that we have a body and a soul (that are perfecting united into one being) or that Jesus Christ is both man and God at the same time! 

1 hour ago, CaptainFarkus said:

The trinity isn't even supported by scripture.

Isn't it, or is that you have decided arbitrarily on a level of evidence  that you demand from the text (knowing you won't find it)

 

1 hour ago, CaptainFarkus said:

We must recognize that Jesus is in every way subordinate to God(who is the Father).  It is the Father who gave the Son life(John 5:26).  It's the Father who gives Jesus his authority and power(John 3:35)(Matthew 28:18-20)(Matthew 11:27)(Phillipians 2:9)(Ephesians 1:20)(John 17:1-3).  The Father is the God of Jesus as well(Ephesians 1:17)(Revelation 1:6)(1 Peter 1:3)(John 20:17)(Romans 15:6)(2 Corinthians 1:3)(2 Corinthians 11:31).  Jesus doesn't know the hour, but the Father only(Mark 13:32)(Matthew 24:36).  Also, Jesus prayed to the Father on multiple

So, your some sort of subortionist - I don't know if you claim to Christian as you profile doesn't seem to complete - so it makes a meaningful response to you most difficult so I guess I will just have to be general. 

 

First a general point - proof texting is not always a strong form of argument (especially when it is only selective proof texts) - for example I notice that you neglect John 1:1 why is that? 

 

Secondly, let's look at John 1:1: " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. " Consider that phrase In the beginning - what beginning does it refer to? 

 

Well it reminds of Gen 1:1 certainly, and it tells us 'the word' was there then - but does that exhaust it's meaning? The verb “was” (Gr: en, imperfect of eimi) takes us before whatever “beginning” we may wish to choose. The continuous action in the past of the imperfect tense of the verb indicates to us that whenever the “beginning” was, the Word was already in existence. In other words, the Word is eternal – timeless – without a “beginning.” - so from 3 words of scripture we are easily able to refute your false claim that, "Jesus is in every way subordinate to God" - but we haven't finished yet, the verse continues: "and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". In the final clause there notice that The Greek reads, kai theos en ho logos. The term Logos has the article ho while the term theos does not. This tells us that the subject of the clause is the Logos. Hence, we could not translate the phrase “and God was the Word” for that would make the wrong term the subject of the clause. Hence, the term “God” is the predicate nominative - that means this clause is telling us about 'the word' namely that he is 'God' just as mush as the person he is with is God.

 

Now, in regards to your scattergun approach of scriptures maybe your aware that difference in function does not denote inferiority of nature - take a biblical marriage for example, a wife is to submit to her husband and a husband is to love his wife - husband and wife have different functions but they both human being and equal in the sight of God. 

 

I hope your questions are genuine, and that your hear to learn and that your statements are born out of genuine ignorance of the Bible's teaching.   

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2 hours ago, Becky said:

Dear Captain,

Below are the beliefs of the site, if you show you are asking a real question, truly looking for understanding , you are welcome.  IF you have come here for the purpose of battling this is not the place for you.  The ball is in your court what say you? 

 

 

The doctrine of our staff is summarized in the following paragraphs:

 

  • The Bible, having been inspired by God, is entirely trustworthy and without error. Therefore, we are to believe and obey its teachings. The Bible is the only source of special revelation for the church today.
  • The one true God is personal, yet beyond our comprehension. He is an invisible spirit, completely self-sufficient and unbounded by space or time, perfectly holy and just, and loving and merciful. In the unity of the Godhead there are three “persons”: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
  • God created the heavens and the earth, and all they contain. He upholds and governs them in accordance with his eternal will. God is sovereign (in complete control) yet this does not diminish human responsibility.
  • Because of the sin of the first man, Adam, all mankind is corrupt by nature, dead in sin, and subject to the wrath of God. But God determined, by a covenant of grace, that sinners may receive forgiveness and eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ. Faith in Christ has always been the only way of salvation, in both Old Testament and New Testament times.
  • The Son of God took upon himself a human nature in the womb of the virgin Mary, so that in her son Jesus the divine and human natures were united in one person. Jesus Christ lived a sinless life and died on a cross, bearing the sins of, and receiving God’s wrath for, all those who trust in him for salvation (his chosen ones). He rose from the dead and ascended into heaven, where he sits as Lord and rules over his kingdom (the church). He will return to judge the living and the dead, bringing his people (with glorious, resurrected bodies) into eternal life, and consigning the wicked to eternal punishment.
  • Those whom God has predestined unto life are effectually drawn to Christ by the inner working of the Spirit as they hear the gospel. When they believe in Christ, God declares them righteous (justifies them), pardoning their sins and accepting them as righteous, not because of any righteousness of their own, but by imputing Christ’s merits to them. They are adopted as the children of God and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, who sanctifies them, enabling them increasingly to stop sinning and act righteously. They repent of their sins (both at their conversion and thereafter), produce good works as the fruit of their faith, and persevere to the end in communion with Christ, with assurance of their salvation.
  • Believers strive to keep God’s moral law, which is summarized in the Ten Commandments, not to earn salvation, but because they love their Savior and want to obey him. God is the Lord of the conscience, so that men are not required to believe or do anything contrary to, or in addition to, the Word of God in matters of faith or worship.
  • Christ has established his church, and particular churches, to gather and perfect his people, by means of the ministry of the Word, the sacraments of baptism (which is to be administered to the children of believers, as well as believers) and the Lord’s Supper (in which the body and blood of Christ are spiritually present to the faith of believers), and the disciplining of members found delinquent in doctrine or life. Christians assemble on the Lord’s Day to worship God by praying, hearing the Word of God read and preached, singing psalms and hymns, and receiving the sacraments.

 

I was asking a question. I'm asking how the trinity can be one God.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, CaptainFarkus said:

I was asking a question. I'm asking how the trinity can be one God.

And I have explained it to you - happy to interact with anything you have to say in laggards to my post. 

 

PS - just reading back my last post I must apologize for the terrible spelling and grammar (even by my standards) :classic_biggrin:

Edited by reformed baptist

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1 hour ago, reformed baptist said:

Statements like reveal a certain degree of ignorance in regards to what Christians actually teach in regards to the Trinity. We teach that there is one being who is God, and that their are three divine persons who are co-equal and co-eternal who are that one being - hence God is not 'three' in the same way as he is 'one'. 

 

Let's talk about 'persons' first of all - The personhood of each member of the Trinity means that each Person has a distinct center of consciousness. Thus, they relate to each other personally — the Father regards himself as “I” while he regards the Son and Holy Spirit as “you.” Likewise, the Son regards himself as “I,” but the Father and the Holy Spirit as “you.” And the Spirit regards himself as "I" while he regards the Father and the Son as "You." 

That sounds like three divine persons with three divine minds and three divine wills which is by definition three divine gods.

1 hour ago, reformed baptist said:

This really isn't any harder to accept then the idea that we have a body and a soul (that are perfecting united into one being) or that Jesus Christ is both man and God at the same time! 

Last time I checked by body, soul, and spirit are one person. What you're talking about sounds like hyper modalism.

1 hour ago, reformed baptist said:

I don't know if you claim to Christian as you profile doesn't seem to complete - so it makes a meaningful response to you most difficult so I guess I will just have to be general. 

I am a Christian. I just believe what the Bible says.

1 hour ago, reformed baptist said:

Secondly, let's look at John 1:1: " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. " Consider that phrase In the beginning - what beginning does it refer to? 

I don't deny that Jesus' Spirit has always existed because his Spirit is the Spirit of God (which is the Holy Spirit). We can know this by looking at verses where the Spirit of Christ and Holy Spirit are used interchangeably. Like these verses for example:

Acts 16:6-7
6 And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia. 7 And when they had come up to Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them.

 

We know that God is the Father(1 Corinthians 8:6). So John 1:1 is literally saying this...

In the beginning was the Spirit of Christ, and the Spirit of Christ was with the Father and the Spirit of Christ was the Father.

 

This doesn't mean that Jesus is the Father, it just means that they share the same Spirit. So yes, Jesus is God according to the spirit because God was manifest in him. But to say that Jesus consciously existed eternally would be to deny John 5:26 which clearly says that the Father gave life to Jesus.

 

1 hour ago, reformed baptist said:

Now, in regards to your scattergun approach of scriptures maybe your aware that difference in function does not denote inferiority of nature - take a biblical marriage for example, a wife is to submit to her husband and a husband is to love his wife - husband and wife have different functions but they both human being and equal in the sight of God. 

It was not a scattergun approach. I literally listed scriptures which show that the trinity cannot be true. Jesus is definitely inferior to the Father. As I already posted, there are about seven verses which show that the Father is the God of Jesus. God cannot have a God. Also, scripture says that the Messiah must fear God (Isaiah 11:1-3). Jesus demonstrated this when he said the Father is greater than he is (John 14:28).

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Christ  is God Incarnate, fully human and fully God, when we see verses like, " I do the will of The Father" it is understood to mean that the fully human part of Christ does the will of the fully God part.

 

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12 minutes ago, Innerfire89 said:

Christ  is God Incarnate, fully human and fully God, when we see verses like, " I do the will of The Father" it is understood to mean that the fully human part of Christ does the will of the fully God part.

 

Do you have any scripture to support that interpretation? It's important to interpret scripture with scripture.

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55 minutes ago, CaptainFarkus said:

That sounds like three divine persons with three divine minds and three divine wills which is by definition three divine gods.

Let's work through this a step at a time shall we - if you give me opportunity I will address all your points as we come to them? 

 

Do you understand the distinction I am making between 'being' and 'person'?

 

These two words are at the heart of the trinity - but it is obvious from your statements that you either conflate them or do not believe that more then one person can share one being - so how do you understand these two terms, 'being' and 'person'?

 

Moving on: 

 

(1) Do you agree that the scriptures tell us there is only one God?

(2) Do you agree that the scriptures tells us about more then one person who is that one God? 

(3) How many persons does the scripture identify as being God?

 

I think once we have established where we are at in regards to these points we will be ready to move on:RpS_thumbup:

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1 hour ago, CaptainFarkus said:

Do you have any scripture to support that interpretation? It's important to interpret scripture with scripture.

Philippians 2:5-7 sums it up well.

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26 minutes ago, Innerfire89 said:

Philippians 2:5-7 sums it up well.

I meant the part about...

2 hours ago, Innerfire89 said:

I do the will of The Father" it is understood to mean that the fully human part of Christ does the will of the fully God part.

 

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58 minutes ago, reformed baptist said:

Do you understand the distinction I am making between 'being' and 'person'?

 

These two words are at the heart of the trinity - but it is obvious from your statements that you either conflate them or do not believe that more then one person can share one being - so how do you understand these two terms, 'being' and 'person'?

A person is an individual. A being is the nature or essence of a person. One God cannot exist as three divine persons.

1 hour ago, reformed baptist said:

(1) Do you agree that the scriptures tell us there is only one God?

Yes

1 hour ago, reformed baptist said:

(2) Do you agree that the scriptures tells us about more then one person who is that one God? 

No

1 hour ago, reformed baptist said:

How many persons does the scripture identify as being God?

One

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2 hours ago, CaptainFarkus said:

Do you have any scripture to support that interpretation? It's important to interpret scripture with scripture.

John 1 flat out says Jesus is God. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

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6 minutes ago, CaptainFarkus said:

A person is an individual. 

Concerning persons of the trinity, they are not individual enough to have separate wills, but individual enough to be able to commune together. 

 

God bless,

William 

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13 minutes ago, davidtaylorjr said:

John 1 flat out says Jesus is God. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

I already discussed that in a previous comment.

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, William said:

Concerning persons of the trinity, they are not individual enough to have separate wills, but individual enough to be able to commune together. 

 

God bless,

William 

But they do have seperate wills. Here are a few verses which prove that:

John 6:38

Luke 22:42

Matthew 26:39

John 5:30

Edited by CaptainFarkus
Typo

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3 minutes ago, CaptainFarkus said:

I already discussed that in a previous comment.

Not adequately. You said Jesus is the Spirit of God, then said Jesus is not God. That makes no sense at all.  There are other passages that said all things were created through Christ. How can that be if He is not God?

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33 minutes ago, CaptainFarkus said:

I meant the part about...

 

The interpretation is constitant with what scripture teaches.

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1 minute ago, davidtaylorjr said:

Not adequately. You said Jesus is the Spirit of God, then said Jesus is not God. That makes no sense at all.  There are other passages that said all things were created through Christ. How can that be if He is not God?

I said this...

2 hours ago, CaptainFarkus said:

This doesn't mean that Jesus is the Father, it just means that they share the same Spirit. So yes, Jesus is God according to the spirit because God was manifest in him. But to say that Jesus consciously existed eternally would be to deny John 5:26 which clearly says that the Father gave life to Jesus.

 

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3 minutes ago, Innerfire89 said:

The interpretation is constitant with what scripture teaches.

Not what you said about:

2 hours ago, Innerfire89 said:

" I do the will of The Father" it is understood to mean that the fully human part of Christ does the will of the fully God part.

 

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5 minutes ago, CaptainFarkus said:

But they do have seperate wills. Here are a few verses which prove that:

John 6:38

Luke 22:42

Matthew 26:39

John 5:30

What the was the will of The Son that differed from the will of The Father's? 

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1 minute ago, Innerfire89 said:

What the was the will of The Son that differed from the will of The Father's? 

Pretty much everything:

John 6:38

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

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Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 

Mal_2:10  Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers? 
Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 
Joh 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God. 
Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 
Joh 1:4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 
 

 

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1 minute ago, Becky said:

Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 

Mal_2:10  Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers? 
Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 
Joh 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God. 
Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 
Joh 1:4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 
 

 

I believe I already addressed that.

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4 minutes ago, CaptainFarkus said:

Not what you said about:

 

But it is, to say otherwise is inconsistent.

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