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reformed baptist

Something you should know about 'free will'

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Luther once wrote:

 

"If all men have “free will” and yet all without exception are under God’s wrath, then it follows that “free will” leads them in only one direction—“ungodliness and unrighteousness” (i.e., wickedness). So where is the power of “free will” helping them to do good? If “free will” exists, it does not seem to be able to help men to salvation because it still leaves them under the wrath of God.”

― Martin Luther, The Bondage of the Will

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Reformed Baptist. I understand your thinking and point on Free Will and how Calvinism teaches. Here is something I would like to just explain from my Biblical view point. It makes no real significant difference in the end of our lives if we don't agree on this area of Free Will. The real important issue is we are bothers in Jesus Christ. I am reminded of John 13:34,35. How do Christians that do not agree on a Theological issue, still love each other? For me I don't see my Brothers and Sisters in Jesus Christ as belong to the Arminiamism or Calvinism view point, I see them as Followers of Our Lord God Almighty and His So, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

 

Reformed Baptist, when we are both together, in front of the Lord face to face before Him I doubt we will even care which side of this issue will thought was right. I can honestly say Brother Reformed Baptist , you are a very dear brother, we just see Free Will differently, but we both see Jesus Christ the very same way.

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I can honestly say Brother Reformed Baptist , you are a very dear brother, we just see Free Will differently, but we both see Jesus Christ the very same way.

 

But that is the thing brother - if we disagree on this issue it is actually a disagreement about the person, work and nature of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am not making it a salvation issue - as a Calvinist I believe we are saved despite what we don't know, not because of what we do know - but a disagreement on free will is a disagreement on the nature of the atonement, the love of Jesus Christ and the sovereignty of Jesus Christ.

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I can honestly say Brother Reformed Baptist , you are a very dear brother, we just see Free Will differently, but we both see Jesus Christ the very same way.

 

But that is the thing brother - if we disagree on this issue it is actually a disagreement about the person, work and nature of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am not making it a salvation issue - as a Calvinist I believe we are saved despite what we don't know, not because of what we do know - but a disagreement on free will is a disagreement on the nature of the atonement, the love of Jesus Christ and the sovereignty of Jesus Christ.

"A new commandment I give you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." John 13:34,35. NASB

 

I am positive that all who become Followers of Jesus Christ took Jesus Christ at His word that "Whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." There is no other way but by Jesus Christ that we are saved. How many millions have been saved and died, and gone to Jesus Christ, never ever hearing of Calvinism or Arminianism? I doubt the nature of the Atonement of our Dear Lord Jesus Christ and His Sovereignty was doubted for even one second.

 

I have come to the point in my life where I make the choice to love and respect, than to argue. I thought perhaps my attempt to bridge a gap with you was possible. That was my only intention. I will leave it at that. God bless.

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Just Mike - please try and respond to what I am actually saying - it makes conversation much more beneficial :RpS_flapper:

 

I am positive that all who become Followers of Jesus Christ took Jesus Christ at His word that "Whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

 

I'm sure they did too - but it is entirely irrelevant to the point I am making - as indeed are all your objections which amount to little mere then dumbing the gospel down to a simple point that we can all agree on!

 

How many millions have been saved and died, and gone to Jesus Christ, never ever hearing of Calvinism or Arminianism?

 

Again, so what - it doesn't matter what name you give it!

 

I doubt the nature of the Atonement of our Dear Lord Jesus Christ and His Sovereignty was doubted for even one second

 

Again, I am sure what was believed by those people was firmly believed - but the Bible present a penal substitionairy atonement that achieves the salvation of the elect - to say "Jesus died to make salvation possible for all," is to change the nature the atonement and the intend of God!

 

However, the truth is my friend - whilst these are all important points to discuss - not a single one of them in relevant to OP - which is quote about free will.

 

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Just Mike - please try and respond to what I am actually saying - it makes conversation much more beneficial :RpS_flapper:

 

I am positive that all who become Followers of Jesus Christ took Jesus Christ at His word that "Whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

 

I'm sure they did too - but it is entirely irrelevant to the point I am making - as indeed are all your objections which amount to little mere then dumbing the gospel down to a simple point that we can all agree on!

 

How many millions have been saved and died, and gone to Jesus Christ, never ever hearing of Calvinism or Arminianism?

 

Again, so what - it doesn't matter what name you give it!

 

I doubt the nature of the Atonement of our Dear Lord Jesus Christ and His Sovereignty was doubted for even one second

 

Again, I am sure what was believed by those people was firmly believed - but the Bible present a penal substitionairy atonement that achieves the salvation of the elect - to say "Jesus died to make salvation possible for all," is to change the nature the atonement and the intend of God!

 

However, the truth is my friend - whilst these are all important points to discuss - not a single one of them in relevant to OP - which is quote about free will.

You have the last word, so be it.

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Luther once wrote:

 

"If all men have “free will” and yet all without exception are under God’s wrath, then it follows that “free will” leads them in only one direction—“ungodliness and unrighteousness” (i.e., wickedness). So where is the power of “free will” helping them to do good? If “free will” exists, it does not seem to be able to help men to salvation because it still leaves them under the wrath of God.”

― Martin Luther, The Bondage of the Will

Perhaps free will is the illusion we're under. The scriptures tell us all things are predestined, which would mean, preordained, pre-ordered, by God's will and for his glory.And when God is the source of all things, the creator, the first cause, and God , the holy spirit, is also omniscient, all knowing, it would be impossible for us to possess the capacity to decide anything outside of his control or awareness.

Ergo, it is all a game. And we're simply walking in the footsteps God predetermined for us to follow.

After all, why didn't God destroy Satan and 1/3rd of those angels that followed him after they lost the war in Heaven?

Instead, God cast them down to the newly formed earth. Where the first humans would be created to dwell inside a paradise accessible to Satan. Who slithered up a tree God planted with what he told Adam was forbidden fruit. Omnipresence, as God is also, would have watched the whole thing unfold.

Let the games begin.

 

 

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Adam ate of his Free Will. Cane killed Able out of his free will. You and I make choices each day out of our free will. God knows what we will do, His for knowledge.

 

I know there is the different side of this. However I believe I am a 3rd Calvinists. I an not going to disrespect anyone who thinks otherwise, and I hope I receive the same respect back.

 

Here is what I do know when I became a Follower of Jesus Christ, I put my life in His hands. I asked Him to take my life and use it where even He wants. I trust Him completely, I will follow Him where ever he wants me to go. Believe me, that right now I am trusting Him day by day as never before. With my latest diagnosis of bone cancer, my faith In Jesus Christ has never been stronger, nor my desire to please Him more. Its one thing to say I believe, or will follow Him, its altogether differently in doing it. Talk is so easy and cheap, finishing life well takes love and obediance in a Jesus that so loves us that He paoid the price for our sins no matter how small we think they are. In truth each sin took Jesus to die on a bloody Cross for that lie.

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Adam ate of his Free Will. Cane killed Able out of his free will.

 

Kinds of supports the OP doesn't it?

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I don't think this discussion can be twisted into something it is not , unless someone imparts through implication that their opinion on the topic is because their a follower of Christ. Therein implying those who have a different opinion or observation of free will , are not.

This is a Christian site. We're all presumed to be in the Lord. Little jabs aren't necessary nor are they reflecting a civil tone to proceed.

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I don't think this discussion can be twisted into something it is not , unless someone imparts through implication that their opinion on the topic is because their a follower of Christ. Therein implying those who have a different opinion or observation of free will , are not.

This is a Christian site. We're all presumed to be in the Lord. Little jabs aren't necessary nor are they reflecting a civil tone to proceed.

I don't think anyone has implied that - but I'm sorry it comes across that way to you

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I don't think this discussion can be twisted into something it is not , unless someone imparts through implication that their opinion on the topic is because their a follower of Christ. Therein implying those who have a different opinion or observation of free will , are not.

This is a Christian site. We're all presumed to be in the Lord. Little jabs aren't necessary nor are they reflecting a civil tone to proceed.

Reformed Baptist. My reading of your post's has surely seemed that way to me. I prefer to let you say what you will and ignore it. I tried three times to quote John 13:34,35. and I was stunned by your response. Frankly I made the choice to try and let Christian love end the dialogue.

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I don't think this discussion can be twisted into something it is not , unless someone imparts through implication that their opinion on the topic is because their a follower of Christ. Therein implying those who have a different opinion or observation of free will , are not.

This is a Christian site. We're all presumed to be in the Lord. Little jabs aren't necessary nor are they reflecting a civil tone to proceed.

You didn't choose to ignore my post - you responded with this:

 

Reformed Baptist. I understand your thinking and point on Free Will how Calvinism teaches. Here is something I would like to just explain from my Biblical view point.

 

It seems brother you want the right to disagree with me (and even imply my position is unbiblical) - but you don't want me to have the right to respond to your words. If I do respond I am 'disrespecting you' and not speaking in 'love' - I am truly sorry you feel that way but the simple truth is I can assure you that I haven't written anything with the intention to lack respect or love towards you.

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Posted (edited)

Reformed Baptist. This does not honor Christ to keep going over it again and again. Its one thing to disagree, but being disagreeable is altogether wrong. I don't care if you are Calvinistic or whatever but unless respect and brother Christian love is at the core it is meaningless. Christians for hundreds of years have debated Calvinism and still were close friends in Jesus Christ. That seems difficult for you. Lets let this go I just no longer have the time for this to continue on. Pleace.

Edited by Just Mike
spelling error

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Posted (edited)
Reformed Baptist. This does not honor Christ to keep going over it again and again. Its one thing to disagree, but being disagreeable is altogether wrong. I don't care if you are Calvinistic or whatever but unless respect and brother Christian love is at the core it is meaningless. Christians for hundreds of years have debated Calvinism and still were close friends in Jesus Christ. That seems difficult for you. Lets let this go I just no longer have the time for this to continue on. Pleace.

 

Nothing I would love more then seeing this thread get back on topic - but that is up to you brother, your the one pursuing me here and you have been since post #2 - with all due respect you need to let it go! Your first post of this thread was not relevant to a word of that quote it was instead a claim that I am being unbiblical and unloving in posting it :RpS_thumbdn:

Edited by reformed baptist

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Reformed Baptist, I sent you back a response to your private message to me. If you don't get it please let me know. Peace and brotherly love in Christ Jesus.

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In early Methodism, both John Wesley (Arminian) and George Whitefield (Calvinist) achieved great success preaching in the open to great crowds and had many converts.

 

Calvinistic Methodists were born out of the Methodist Revival in 18th-century Wales and survive as a body of Christians now forming the Presbyterian Church of Wales.[1] Calvinistic Methodism became a major denomination in Wales, growing rapidly in the 19th century, and taking a leadership role in the Welsh Religious Revival of 1904-5.[2]

Calvinistic Methodism claims to be the only denomination in Wales to be of purely Welsh origin, owing no influence in its formation to Scottish Presbyterianism. It is also the only denomination to make use of the title Calvinistic (after John Calvin) in its name. In 18th-century England Calvinistic Methodism was represented by the followers of George Whitefield as opposed to those of John and Charles Wesley, although all the early Methodists in England and Wales worked together regardless of Calvinist or Arminian (or Wesleyan) theology, for many years.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinistic_Methodists

 

 

 

 

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On 4/27/2018 at 10:35 AM, reformed baptist said:

Luther once wrote:

 

"If all men have “free will” and yet all without exception are under God’s wrath, then it follows that “free will” leads them in only one direction—“ungodliness and unrighteousness” (i.e., wickedness). So where is the power of “free will” helping them to do good? If “free will” exists, it does not seem to be able to help men to salvation because it still leaves them under the wrath of God.”

 

― Martin Luther, The Bondage of the Will

I believe the scriptures to teach that God gave all mankind a free will to choose how he wants to live his life here on earth, but it is God's sovereign choice as to man's eternal destination.  There are many verses of scripture that God tells us to choose certain things, but he does not tell us to choose eternal life.

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On 4/28/2018 at 4:11 PM, Just Mike said:

Reformed Baptist, I sent you back a response to your private message to me. If you don't get it please let me know. Peace and brotherly love in Christ Jesus.

Hi Mike, I appreciate your willingness to keep our discussions civil.  I do not like confrontations.  If we think that we have the understanding of the truth of Jesus's doctrine, we should not use it as a weapon to beat someone over the head with it.  After all, no one will understand it unless the Holy Spirit within them will reveal it. 

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7 hours ago, Forest said:

I believe the scriptures to teach that God gave all mankind a free will to choose how he wants to live his life here on earth, but it is God's sovereign choice as to man's eternal destination.  There are many verses of scripture that God tells us to choose certain things, but he does not tell us to choose eternal life.

Hi Frosty,

 

So to you "free will" is synonymous with having "choice"? Do you think all men have the "ability to choose" God? Don't mistaken my point, I think all men have a choice, and they'll be accountable and responsible for their decisions.

 

God bless,

William

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4 hours ago, William said:

Hi Frosty,

 

So to you "free will" is synonymous with having "choice"? Do you think all men have the "ability to choose" God? Don't mistaken my point, I think all men have a choice, and they'll be accountable and responsible for their decisions.

 

God bless,

William

I believe that the natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, can not choose a spiritual God, or anything else that is of a spiritual nature, until he has been regenerated as explained in Eph 2:5.

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On 4/28/2018 at 11:11 AM, Just Mike said:

Reformed Baptist. This does not honor Christ to keep going over it again and again. Its one thing to disagree, but being disagreeable is altogether wrong. I don't care if you are Calvinistic or whatever but unless respect and brother Christian love is at the core it is meaningless. Christians for hundreds of years have debated Calvinism and still were close friends in Jesus Christ. That seems difficult for you. Lets let this go I just no longer have the time for this to continue on. Pleace.

I am a firm believer that before anyone can have an understanding of the true doctrine of Jesus, the Holy Spirit within that person will have to reveal the truths to him.  I was raised in a church going family of 8 siblings, and all of them tried to make me understand scriptures, with no avail.  When I tried to study the scriptures, they, seemingly, contradicted each other, mostly with the salvation scriptures.  When I was 50 years old, I was determined, and had the mindset, that I was smart enough, that I thought if I bought a Strong's concordance and studied hard enough that I could figure it out.  After my stubbornness and 12 years, I finally decided I was not smart enough and gave up on understanding the scriptures.  A short time after that, the Spirit within me began to reveal a little here and a little there.  I think back on it and realizes if God had revealed it to me earlier, I would have said, "I knew I was smart enough".  Luke 9:23 -   If any man will come after me, let him DENY himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.  Until man denies his own abilities The Spirit will not reveal. 

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On 4/27/2018 at 2:26 PM, Just Mike said:

we are saved despite what we don't know, not because of what we do know

i think that is very profound

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It blows Gnosticism out of the water in that Knowledge is not a basis of being saved.

 

To pin down what is exactly meant by "prevenient Grace" seems difficult to me; I think it is related to the DRAWING of a person to God, which must be done by the Father. 

 

And technically the ETERNAL SECURITY issue becomes moot for the Arminian who believes that Election is on the basis of God's foreknowledge of who will believe AND PERSIST IN BELIEVING TIL THE END; so the question of "falling from Grace" might become meaningless; it is clouded by the realization that God foreknew who would persist in believing.

 

Joshua told the Israelites "Choose Life" -- but it might be true that the Bible never says "Choose ETERNAL life -- I dunno.

 

Christian message boards these days seem rampant with non-Trinnies, not-godders, and non-Chalcedonians.

 

Differences in soteriology and eschatology seem MINOR compared to the insisters that there is no Trinity, that Jesus was not fully divine, and/or not fully human.

 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Anto9us said:

It blows Gnosticism out of the water in that Knowledge is not a basis of being saved.

I agree, and I go further by suggesting our salvation is not dependent on how well we even articulate soteriology, but there is a degree a person can reach in which they stand stark against essential doctrine which becomes "another doctrine".

 

19 minutes ago, Anto9us said:

Joshua told the Israelites "Choose Life" -- but it might be true that the Bible never says "Choose ETERNAL life -- I dunno. 

I find that reference in Scripture very interesting. Have you thought about it much in that Covenant Israel was being told to "choose life"?

 

Also, there are instances in the Scriptures which support a "biblical free will" which is merely "non compulsion by the law".

 

For example, if God asks for a free will offering then it is an offering without penalty by law. This doesn't suggest whether a person is saved or not, as an example unbelievers as well as believers give to charity etc. Unbelievers may do things which appear good in the eyes of other men. So much emphasis is placed on Total depravity or Total inability by Monergist in general. Man may do good works according to man's standard, but the T in Tulip contrasts man's nature, ability, etc to God's nature, requirements, etc., or ultimately His Holy Standard.

 

God bless,

William

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