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Fastfredy0

Theophany question(s)

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Theophany – is a manifestation of God in the Bible that is tangible to the human senses. In its most restrictive sense, it is a visible appearance of God in the Old Testament period, often, but not always, in human form.

 

Example: Joshua 5:13 When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand. And Joshua went to him and said to him, “Are you for us, or for our adversaries?” 14 And he said, “No; but I am the commander of the army of the Lord. Now I have come.” And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshipped and said to him, “What does my lord say to his servant?” 15 And the commander of the Lord's army said to Joshua, “Take off your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so.

 

Proof of a Theophany in Joshua 5: A unfallen angel of God would never allow himself to be worshiped; thus deity is identified. Also Joshua, like Moses on Mount Sinai when he met God (The Angel of the Lord), was told to take off his sandals because he was standing on holy ground.

 

Questions:

1) In the example, which member(s) of the Trinity did Joshua meet and how do you come to that conclusion?

2) General question: Is it possible that there are more than (asked respectfully) 3 persons and if not why? (Background: The Trinity is not a biblical term but a summation of biblical facts that came to a conclusion of 3 persons and one nature. Also, Judaism only recognizes 1 person and the identification of 3 persons in the old testament is difficult)

 

Aside: I believe in the Trinity, Deut. 29:29, if forced to answer #1 I would say it was the person of Christ but my evidence would be intuitive only.

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Proof of a Theophany in Joshua 5: A unfallen angel of God would never allow himself to be worshiped; thus deity is identified. Also Joshua, like Moses on Mount Sinai when he met God (The Angel of the Lord), was told to take off his sandals because he was standing on holy ground.

 

Right, both the "commander of the Lord's armies" and "the Angel of the Lord" are thought to be the pre-incarnate Christ.

 

1) In the example, which member(s) of the Trinity did Joshua meet and how do you come to that conclusion?

 

I come to the conclusion that Jesus, the Son, was the one Joshua met as there is an economic subordination in the Trinity. The entity was identified as the commander of the Lord's armies. Doesn't that imply that the commander is subordinate to the Lord? For example, the Son never "sends" the Father anywhere John 6:44; 8:18; 10:36; 1 John 4:14.

 

2) General question: Is it possible that there are more than (asked respectfully) 3 persons and if not why? (Background: The Trinity is not a biblical term but a summation of biblical facts that came to a conclusion of 3 persons and one nature. Also, Judaism only recognizes 1 person and the identification of 3 persons in the old testament is difficult)

 

Genesis chapter 1, the Trinity can be noted.

 

The first chapter of John makes an allusion to Genesis 1. Given that John explains the Logos or the Word which is the creative agent of creation. There is nothing made that has not been made by the Son. With fear of saying something unbiblical, as most analogies fail when properly describing the Trinity, may I suggest that within the God head the Word is the perfect inward thought of the Father. The Father perfectly expresses the Word which is made manifest in the perfect image of the Son. Literally, the Word or Logos is divine reason or the mind of God. Jesus is the Son of God, the link of communication between God and the external world. John 14:9 asks, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, “Show us the Father”?" Jesus is the perfect manifestation of the Father. One who has seen Jesus has seen the Father in the power and glory of the Holy Spirit.

 

Note what John has revealed to us:

 

-Jesus is eternal (“In the beginning was the Word”)

-Jesus was with God prior to coming to earth (“the Word was with God”)

-Jesus is God (“the Word was God.”)

-Jesus is Creator (“All things were made through him”)

-Jesus is the Giver of Life (“In him was life”)

-Jesus became human to live among us (“the Word became flesh and dwelt among us”)

 

The Father is in overall supervision. The whole of creation is made by His command. Yet, we read that God said, “Let there be light.” In John’s Gospel, Jesus is described as the Word of God—and also as the Light. We can see, then, that the creation was made through Jesus—and this is supported by Colossians 1:15–17. Finally, in Genesis 1:2, we read about the Spirit “hovering over the face of the waters.” That accounts for all three Persons of the Trinity at the very start of things.

 

As to why Judaism rejects this, I have no comment nor try to figure it out. Historically, much more capable men have tried to convert but failed miserably. Martin Luther grew very frustrated with the Jews he tried to reach which denied Jesus as the second person of the Trinity. Martin Luther began a firestorm of anti-Semitic language after he failed to convert them to Protestantism. Judaism rejects the New Testament, which means their text is only partial, having only the types and shadows of which was brought to full fruition and/or light of Jesus Christ.

 

God bless,

William

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Proof of a Theophany in Joshua 5: A unfallen angel of God would never allow himself to be worshiped; thus deity is identified. Also Joshua, like Moses on Mount Sinai when he met God (The Angel of the Lord), was told to take off his sandals because he was standing on holy ground.

 

Right, both the "commander of the Lord's armies" and "the Angel of the Lord" are thought to be the pre-incarnate Christ.

 

1) In the example, which member(s) of the Trinity did Joshua meet and how do you come to that conclusion?

 

I come to the conclusion that Jesus, the Son, was the one Joshua met as there is an economic subordination in the Trinity. The entity was identified as the commander of the Lord's armies. Doesn't that imply that the commander is subordinate to the Lord? For example, the Son never "sends" the Father anywhere John 6:44; 8:18; 10:36; 1 John 4:14.

 

2) General question: Is it possible that there are more than (asked respectfully) 3 persons and if not why? (Background: The Trinity is not a biblical term but a summation of biblical facts that came to a conclusion of 3 persons and one nature. Also, Judaism only recognizes 1 person and the identification of 3 persons in the old testament is difficult)

 

Genesis chapter 1, the Trinity can be noted.

 

The first chapter of John makes an allusion to Genesis 1. Given that John explains the Logos or the Word which is the creative agent of creation. There is nothing made that has not been made by the Son. With fear of saying something unbiblical, as most analogies fail when properly describing the Trinity, may I suggest that within the God head the Word is the perfect inward thought of the Father. The Father perfectly expresses the Word which is made manifest in the perfect image of the Son. Literally, the Word or Logos is divine reason or the mind of God. Jesus is the Son of God, the link of communication between God and the external world. John 14:9 asks, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, “Show us the Father”?" Jesus is the perfect manifestation of the Father. One who has seen Jesus has seen the Father in the power and glory of the Holy Spirit.

 

Note what John has revealed to us:

 

-Jesus is eternal (“In the beginning was the Word”)

-Jesus was with God prior to coming to earth (“the Word was with God”)

-Jesus is God (“the Word was God.”)

-Jesus is Creator (“All things were made through him”)

-Jesus is the Giver of Life (“In him was life”)

-Jesus became human to live among us (“the Word became flesh and dwelt among us”)

 

The Father is in overall supervision. The whole of creation is made by His command. Yet, we read that God said, “Let there be light.” In John’s Gospel, Jesus is described as the Word of God—and also as the Light. We can see, then, that the creation was made through Jesus—and this is supported by Colossians 1:15–17. Finally, in Genesis 1:2, we read about the Spirit “hovering over the face of the waters.” That accounts for all three Persons of the Trinity at the very start of things.

 

As to why Judaism rejects this, I have no comment nor try to figure it out. Historically, much more capable men have tried to convert but failed miserably. Martin Luther grew very frustrated with the Jews he tried to reach which denied Jesus as the second person of the Trinity. Martin Luther began a firestorm of anti-Semitic language after he failed to convert them to Protestantism. Judaism rejects the New Testament, which means their text is only partial, having only the types and shadows of which was brought to full fruition and/or light of Jesus Christ.

 

God bless,

William

"Doesn't that imply that the commander is subordinate ... For example, the Son never "sends" the Father anywhere" ... good point.

 

Colossians 1:15-17 ... another good point

 

I like the fit.

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1) In the example, which member(s) of the Trinity did Joshua meet and how do you come to that conclusion?

 

I think William has answered the question fully, but in regards to the first I just wanted to add the following text:

 

John 6:46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. (Joh 6:46 NKJ) - no one has seen God the Father hence we must conclude that he was not the person of the trinity who appears in any theophany.

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General question: Is it possible that there are more than (asked respectfully) 3 persons and if not why?

John to the seven churches that are in Asia:

 

Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne.

Revelation 1:4 ESV

 

The seven spirits are mentioned several times in Revelation. This suggests to me that the Holy Spirit might not be just a single person.

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General question: Is it possible that there are more than (asked respectfully) 3 persons and if not why?

John to the seven churches that are in Asia:

 

Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne.

Revelation 1:4 ESV

 

The seven spirits are mentioned several times in Revelation. This suggests to me that the Holy Spirit might not be just a single person.

The reference has too few facts to substantiate that conclusion for me. A commentator thought they were probably angels and referred to verse 20 ... As for the mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands, the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

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I think William has answered the question fully, but in regards to the first I just wanted to add the following text:

 

John 6:46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. (Joh 6:46 NKJ) - no one has seen God the Father hence we must conclude that he was not the person of the trinity who appears in any theophany.

 

Despite the fact He is frequently refereed to in the singular, eg 1 Jo 5:8?

 

Maybe it's the hermeneutic that is fault here my friend?

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