Jump to content

The Protestant Community

Christian and Theologically Protestant? Or, sincerely inquiring about the Protestant faith? Welcome to Christforums the Christian Protestant community. You'll first need to register in order to join our community. Create or respond to threads on your favorite topics and subjects. Registration takes less than a minute, it's simple, fast, and free! Enjoy the fellowship! God bless, Christforums' Staff
Register now

Fenced Community

Christforums is a Protestant Christian forum, open to Bible- believing Christians such as Presbyterians, Lutherans, Reformed, Baptists, Church of Christ members, Pentecostals, Anglicans. Methodists, Charismatics, or any other conservative, Nicene- derived Christian Church. We do not solicit cultists of any kind, including Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Eastern Lightning, Falun Gong, Unification Church, Aum Shinrikyo, Christian Scientists or any other non- Nicene, non- Biblical heresy.
Register now

Christian Fellowship

John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
Sign in to follow this  
Marlin

Is Christ & Jesus Interchangeable?

Recommended Posts

When and where did the idea originate that Jesus and Christ could be used interchangeably? Early on that didn't appear to be the case:

[
John 1.41-42a
] The first thing Andrew did was to find his brother Simon and tell him, "We have found the Messiah" (that is,
the Christ
). [42] And he brought him to
Jesus
. (NIV)

 

The phrase, "the Christ" occurs 48 times in the NIV New Testament. The English determiner, "the," doesn't indicate a proper name. The Name Above all Names, is Jesus, the one who was the Christ not "the" Jesus. Who were, or are, the translators who left out the determiner and made "Jesus, the Christ" become 'Jesus Christ"?

 

But in the NIV Bible, for instance, the phrase Jesus Christ occurs 132 times. The phrase Christ Jesus only 86 times. What's going on here?

 

Using a parabolic analogy, let's say one was a devout political follower of Mr. Trump. Would he call himself a "Trumpian" or a "Presidentian"? Would he say President Trump or Trump President?

 

So the basic question is, does Christ/Messiah refer to a title, position, an anointing, or precept or not? Those are all things that are perceivable but not visible. All the same, does Prophet refer to a man with a name, like Moses, or not? It could be Prophet Moses, or Moses the Prophet, but not Moses Prophet. In fact, my studies show that it could be Christ:

 

Christ Moses, Son of Adam

 

Christ Jesus, Son of Elohim

 

Christ Elijah, Son of Adam

 

Three men on the mountain. The one in the middle, as it were, stands the tallest.

 

As for a prophet:

[
Malachi 4:5
] "See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. (NIV)

 

Does that passage even exist?

 

And does this:

[
Matthew 17:11-12
] Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. [12] But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." (NIV)

 

Have we a translation problem, or was Jesus being esoteric? When asked, John the Baptist denied being Elijah. Baptizing in water was hardly anything akin to the spirit and power recorded concerning the original Elijah.

 

And there's this statement:

[
John 3:13
] No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven -- the Son of Man. (NIV)

 

Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. He never saw death. Does that mean Jesus was Elijah? If so, what did Jesus mean by the following statements?

[
John 3:16
] "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him
shall not perish
but have eternal life. (NIV)

 

[
John 8:50-51
] I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. [51] I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word,
he will never see death.
"

 

[
John 11:25-26
] Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; [26] and whoever lives and believes in me
will never die
. Do you believe this?" (NIV)

 

That sounds like the mantle of Melchizedek and the power of an endless life.

 

And Jesus said this, as well:

[
Revelation 2:26-28
] To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations -- [27] 'He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them to pieces like pottery' -- just as I have received authority from my Father. [28] I will also give him the morning star. (NIV)

 

Overcomes?

 

Here's another Overcomer:

[
Revelation 21:7
] He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. (NIV)

 

How does "he" get turned into "everybody" and "his" into "their"? Is there an argument in that regard? There's a Greek word that could have been used, "pas," and often was for English words like the two I just mentioned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When and where did the idea originate that Jesus and Christ could be used interchangeably? Early on that didn't appear to be the case

 

Just curious, how many people around the time of Jesus Christ do you think may of been named Jesus? And prior to the fist century how many people were known to have held and/or fulfilled the office of Christ?

 

I just assume that most people when saying Christ or Jesus know who we are referring. Prior to Jesus' incarnation the OT Saints looked forward to the coming of the Messiah, but nobody knew His name, Jesus. We live well after the birth of a historical figure that is known as Jesus.

 

As for types, I think Melchizedek was not only a "type" of Christ but then again so was the "Angel of the Lord".

 

In other words, we now know who is the Christ, which is Jesus. Perhaps I am being too simplistic but rather I think our point in the time line allows us to assume these names interchangeably will be understood.

 

God bless,

William

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You wrote:

"Just curious, how many people around the time of Jesus Christ do you think may of been named Jesus?"

 

Who'd know? But if one of them claimed the Messianic Title he'd be subject to close scrutiny and testing. Could he raise the dead, heal the sick and walk on water?

 

"And prior to the fist century how many people were known to have held and/or fulfilled the office of Christ?"

 

One. His name was Moses.

 

"I just assume that most people when saying Christ or Jesus know who we are referring."

 

What about the "men" mentioned here: "In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

(Matthew 5:16 NIV)

 

Do I assume that happens to you? How often? We're talking about people outside your religious frame of reference, in the sense of outsiders:

 

[
1 Corinthians 5:12-13
] For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? [13] God judges those outside. "Drive out the wicked person from among you." (RSV)

 

 

How do you deal with young woman who have abortions? Smokers, prostitutes, beer drinkers, and single mothers on welfare? What about those authorities Elohim establishes as political dignitaries, such as presidents or dictators? If Nebuchadnezzar was established by the will of the Most High, who established Hitler? Did Bill Clinton get into the office of the President of the United States against the rules of Romans 13:1-7? The LORD knows what's in a man's heart.

 

[
Titus 3:1-2
] Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, [2] to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men. (NIV)

 

And other kinds of dignitaries:

 

[
2 Peter 2:10-12
] This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and
despise authority
. Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to
slander celestial beings
; [11] yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. [12] But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish. (NIV)

 

That's a very stern warning. I fear many will not take heed.

[
Jude 1:8-10
] In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. [9] But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" [10] Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals -- these are the very things that destroy them. (NIV)

 

You wrote:

"Prior to Jesus' incarnation the OT Saints looked forward to the coming of the Messiah, but nobody knew His name, Jesus. We live well after the birth of a historical figure that is known as Jesus."

 

So that makes it all right to interchange Jesus' Name and the Name of His Messianic Office? How many times did the Apostles invoke a miracle in 'Christ's' name? How many times did Jesus say "...in my name..."?

 

""'As for types, I think Melchizedek was not only a "type" of Christ but then again so was the "Angel of the Lord."'"

 

 

An Angel of the LORD is a reference to a member of the Elohim, translated as a singular God in most Bibles. Please explain this:

[
Revelation 10:7
] But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets." (NIV)

 

Are these the days of the Seventh Angel? What's your take on the mystery?

 

Yours:

"In other words, we now know who is the Christ, which is Jesus."

 

And you don't care what men think? What if they think your use of the word Christ to make a name for yourself conveys the implication of actually believing you are Christs? The Greek word "antichristos," is translated as Antichrist. The Greek prefix -anti is defined first as "against." But other uses of the word show the "how" of being against; and it's by the use of a masquerade which is the Devil's modus operandi. He masquerades an an angel of light, his servants as ministers of righteousness.

 

Here's an example of the use of -anti (SRN0473)):

 

[
Matthew 2:22
] But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning in Judea
in place of
his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. Having been warned in a dream, he withdrew to the district of Galilee, (NIV)

 

Here's a Link that gives the full definition. In the light green box you'll see "instead of," "in place of (something)," etc.. So an Antichrist is a false Christ, one of those false Christs of Matthew 24:24. Also:

[
1 John 2:18
] Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. (NIV)

 

If there were many then, how many after almost 2000 years?

"Perhaps I am being too simplistic but rather I think our point in the time line allows us to assume these names interchangeably will be understood."

 

 

When the chips are down, only among yourselves, and maybe even already. As for a point in the timeline, I'll suggest other distinct possibilities:

[
Isaiah 63:1-6
] Who is this coming from Edom, from Bozrah, with his garments stained crimson? Who is this, robed in splendor, striding forward in the greatness of his strength? "It is I, speaking in righteousness, mighty to save." [2] Why are your garments red, like those of one treading the winepress? [3] "I have trodden the winepress alone; from the nations no one was with me. I trampled them in my anger and trod them down in my wrath; their blood spattered my garments, and I stained all my clothing. [4] For the day of vengeance was in my heart, and the year of my redemption has come. [5] I looked, but there was no one to help, I was appalled that no one gave support; so my own arm worked salvation for me, and my own wrath sustained me. [6] I trampled the nations in my anger; in my wrath I made them drunk and poured their blood on the ground." (NIV)

 

 

[
Luke 18:8b
] However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?" (NIV)

 

 

Every age has ended with a horrifying minority and a stupendous majority. The age of Israel ended with only 120 people. What basis is there for thinking this age won't end with an incomprehensible minority?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When and where did the idea originate that Jesus and Christ could be used interchangeably? Early on that didn't appear to be the case:

[
John 1.41-42a
] The first thing Andrew did was to find his brother Simon and tell him, "We have found the Messiah" (that is,
the Christ
). [42] And he brought him to
Jesus
. (NIV)

 

The phrase, "the Christ" occurs 48 times in the NIV New Testament. The English determiner, "the," doesn't indicate a proper name. The Name Above all Names, is Jesus, the one who was the Christ not "the" Jesus. Who were, or are, the translators who left out the determiner and made "Jesus, the Christ" become 'Jesus Christ"?

 

But in the NIV Bible, for instance, the phrase Jesus Christ occurs 132 times. The phrase Christ Jesus only 86 times. What's going on here?

 

Using a parabolic analogy, let's say one was a devout political follower of Mr. Trump. Would he call himself a "Trumpian" or a "Presidentian"? Would he say President Trump or Trump President?

 

So the basic question is, does Christ/Messiah refer to a title, position, an anointing, or precept or not?

 

No one denies that Jesus was his name, and that both 'Lord' and 'Christ' or titles that are his. However, names and titles are interchangeable.

 

As a pastor, my title is 'pastor' however many in my congregation also 'pastor' as my name - why, well for the same reason as my children call me 'dad' or 'daddy' and my wife calls me 'sweetheart' names define relationships. I am not primarily a friend to the people in the church, I am their pastor. It happens with doctors - Doctor is a title, yet it also used as a name. Just the other day a child called me 'mister' he was using it as a name. Titles and names are interchangeable?

 

Now, just going to the idea that "the English determiner, "the," doesn't indicate a proper name." do you now what a specific determiner like the definite article does in English? It merely implies that the writer assumes the readers know exactly what they are referring to. John is simply pointing out that Andrew expected Simon to understand the term 'Christ'.

 

Those are all things that are perceivable but not visible. All the same, does Prophet refer to a man with a name, like Moses, or not? It could be Prophet Moses, or Moses the Prophet, but not Moses Prophet. In fact, my studies show that it could be Christ:

 

Christ Moses, Son of Adam

 

Christ Jesus, Son of Elohim

 

Christ Elijah, Son of Adam

 

Three men on the mountain. The one in the middle, as it were, stands the tallest.

 

Well, if you have studies to back that up I would love to interact with them :RpS_wink:

As for a prophet:

[
Malachi 4:5
] "See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. (NIV)

 

Does that passage even exist?

 

You've lost me - obviously it exists you have quoted it

 

And does this:

[
Matthew 17:11-12
] Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. [12] But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." (NIV)

 

Have we a translation problem, or was Jesus being esoteric? When asked, John the Baptist denied being Elijah. Baptizing in water was hardly anything akin to the spirit and power recorded concerning the original Elijah.

 

You tell me, do we have a translation problem, here is the greek:

 

ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν· Ἠλίας μὲν ἔρχεται καὶ ἀποκαταστήσει πάντα·λέγω δὲ ὑμῖν ὅτι Ἠλίας ἤδη ἦλθεν, καὶ οὐκ ἐπέγνωσαν αὐτὸν ἀλλὰ ἐποίησαν ἐν αὐτῷ ὅσα ἠθέλησαν· οὕτως καὶ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου μέλλει πάσχειν ὑπ᾽ αὐτῶν.

 

I look forward to reading your translation :RpS_thumbup:

 

And there's this statement:

[
John 3:13
] No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven -- the Son of Man. (NIV)

 

Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. He never saw death. Does that mean Jesus was Elijah? If so, what did Jesus mean by the following statements?

[
John 3:16
] "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him
shall not perish
but have eternal life. (NIV)

 

[
John 8:50-51
] I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. [51] I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word,
he will never see death.
"

 

[
John 11:25-26
] Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; [26] and whoever lives and believes in me
will never die
. Do you believe this?" (NIV)

 

That sounds like the mantle of Melchizedek and the power of an endless life.

 

And Jesus said this, as well:

[
Revelation 2:26-28
] To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations -- [27] 'He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them to pieces like pottery' -- just as I have received authority from my Father. [28] I will also give him the morning star. (NIV)

 

Overcomes?

 

I'm sorry, I am sure you see some compelling point here (and I know I'm not the brightest) but i just don't get it! Jesus is not Elijah and he never claims to be - John was not Elijah (he was John) however if you read on in the passage you will find that he does indeed claim to the 'second Elijah' that will prepare the way for the messiah (John 1:23)

 

Here's another Overcomer:

[
Revelation 21:7
] He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. (NIV)

 

Again what is your point?

 

How does "he" get turned into "everybody" and "his" into "their"? Is there an argument in that regard? There's a Greek word that could have been used, "pas," and often was for English words like the two I just mentioned.

 

Again what is your point?

 

On a side note though I am interested in knowing where πᾶς is translated as 'their' in scripture - what to your understanding is the difference between determiners and adjectives? Do they modify nouns in the same way? Are they interchangeable as you seem to be saying?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You wrote:

""'Now, just going to the idea that "the English determiner, "the," doesn't indicate a proper name." do you now what a specific determiner like the definite article does in English? It merely implies that the writer assumes the readers know exactly what they are referring to. John is simply pointing out that Andrew expected Simon to understand the term 'Christ'.""

 

The passage I quoted didn't say 'we found Christ.' It said the Christ. If somebody found me and wrote that they'd found 'neighbor' and then turned around and wrote that they had brought said neighbor to 'the' Marlin, then Marlin would think that a bit crazy. I don't recall ever being referred to as "the Marlin," the crazy man, yes, or the TV man, yes. My question, and the point of my post, sought an answer to why you avoid referring to Jesus as THE Christ and turn around and use the phrase Jesus Christ, all while knowing that doing so conveys the implication that Christ is His last name. What's the point? How did that get into the New Testament record? You think it's a small thing. I think it's a big thing. Never the twain shall meet.

 

But I gave an analogy about it being important to at least acknowledge that there's a difference between the idea of an office and the reality of the person IN the office. For you, as an admirer of Donald Trump I ask again -- hypothetically speaking -- which would be more appropriate and sensible? To refer to yourself as a "Trumpian" or a "Presidentian"?

 

Likewise, I wanted to know why your public identity, implied purpose, and aspirations are intimate with the title instead of the Name, the name by which all such things are actually conveyed. An office without an occupant thus vanishes in terms of authority, reputation, or visible manifestation. Ideas, concepts, and precepts are invisible, just as the inward man is invisible. (I begrudge James Strong's failure to properly define the Greek word "sarx" in even the merest semblance of those terms.)

 

But aside from semantics, to omit 'the' as a reference to Christ is a wish to imply many. And adding it to Antichrist is to imply a strictly singular implication. I know the why of all that.

 

I mean, would you admit that the word Christianity is an institutional concept that purports to occupy the Christhood? Or at least admit the tacit import? Or at least explain why the Book of Truth is called the "Christian Scriptures"? What are the realities of her origins? Why did she go to bed with Constantine? Why the need for political influence? How did that later empower the Inquisitions? Why is the Christian Right fixated on politics? What does it mean that the Vice President of the United States has advocated for an American Christian Theocracy? What motivates Christian leaders to urge Christians to seek political office from dog catcher to president? What was the first Council of Nicaea all about? What did that have to do with what had been written by the Followers of the Way? If knowing that Satan masquerades as an angel of light, can you point out and identify any of his servants who masquerade as ministers of righteousness? Do they wear black robes and have horns on their foreheads? What do they look like, act like, sound like, smell like? If you know any, or even one, why not do what Paul said about such insiders? (1 Corinthians 5:12)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You wrote:

"Well, if you have studies to back that up I would love to interact with them :RpS_wink:"

 

Well, if you can refute what I said I'd love to have it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You wrote:

"You've lost me - obviously it exists you have quoted it."

 

So you actually missed the tongue-in-cheek inference that I meant it didn't exist for you?

"You tell me, do we have a translation problem, here is the greek:"

 

You missed the point, or avoided it, whatever...

"I look forward to reading your translation
:RpS_thumbup:

 

My point was about the Christian reading of the passage in question, not the passage itself.

"I'm sorry...,"

 

May I disagree?

 

About Elijah:

"Again what is your point?

 

It's to question what drives the supreme confidence about the times and what I observe as vaunted love and flaunted faith. I see no love. I see no faith, just masquerades. I quoted Jesus at Luke 18:8 and Isaiah at chapter 63:1-6. No comment, no response. The confidence remains and so does the masquerade.

"Again what is your point?"

 

It was about my view of Christian reading and understanding of Scripture. Do you think perception should be relegated to the outback?

"On a side note though I am interested ..."

 

I don't think so. But thanks anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You wrote:

"You've lost me - obviously it exists you have quoted it."

 

So you actually missed the tongue-in-cheek inference that I meant it didn't exist for you?

"You tell me, do we have a translation problem, here is the greek:"

 

You missed the point, or avoided it, whatever...

"I look forward to reading your translation
:RpS_thumbup:

 

My point was about the Christian reading of the passage in question, not the passage itself.

"I'm sorry...,"

 

May I disagree?

 

About Elijah:

"Again what is your point?

 

It's to question what drives the supreme confidence about the times and what I observe as vaunted love and flaunted faith. I see no love. I see no faith, just masquerades. I quoted Jesus at Luke 18:8 and Isaiah at chapter 63:1-6. No comment, no response. The confidence remains and so does the masquerade.

"Again what is your point?"

 

It was about my view of Christian reading and understanding of Scripture. Do you think perception should be relegated to the outback?

"On a side note though I am interested ..."

 

I don't think so. But thanks anyway.

Try highlighting the text you want to quote. A quote button will appear which places the poster you're quoting and the quote itself in the reply box: https://www.christforums.org/forum/welcome-to-christforums/updates-and-information/24472-how-do-i-multi-quote

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Try highlighting the text you want to quote. A quote button will appear which places the poster you're quoting and the quote itself in the reply box:

 

Thanks, William. Your post also lacked the usual "quote" option at the bottom of the message. So I did what you said and it worked.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When and where did the idea originate that Jesus and Christ could be used interchangeably? Early on that didn't appear to be the case:

[
John 1.41-42a
] The first thing Andrew did was to find his brother Simon and tell him, "We have found the Messiah" (that is,
the Christ
). [42] And he brought him to
Jesus
. (NIV)

 

The phrase, "the Christ" occurs 48 times in the NIV New Testament. The English determiner, "the," doesn't indicate a proper name. The Name Above all Names, is Jesus, the one who was the Christ not "the" Jesus. Who were, or are, the translators who left out the determiner and made "Jesus, the Christ" become 'Jesus Christ"?

 

But in the NIV Bible, for instance, the phrase Jesus Christ occurs 132 times. The phrase Christ Jesus only 86 times. What's going on here?

 

Using a parabolic analogy, let's say one was a devout political follower of Mr. Trump. Would he call himself a "Trumpian" or a "Presidentian"? Would he say President Trump or Trump President?

 

So the basic question is, does Christ/Messiah refer to a title, position, an anointing, or precept or not? Those are all things that are perceivable but not visible. All the same, does Prophet refer to a man with a name, like Moses, or not? It could be Prophet Moses, or Moses the Prophet, but not Moses Prophet. In fact, my studies show that it could be Christ:

 

Christ Moses, Son of Adam

 

Christ Jesus, Son of Elohim

 

Christ Elijah, Son of Adam

 

Three men on the mountain. The one in the middle, as it were, stands the tallest.

 

As for a prophet:

[
Malachi 4:5
] "See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. (NIV)

 

Does that passage even exist?

 

And does this:

[
Matthew 17:11-12
] Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. [12] But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." (NIV)

 

Have we a translation problem, or was Jesus being esoteric? When asked, John the Baptist denied being Elijah. Baptizing in water was hardly anything akin to the spirit and power recorded concerning the original Elijah.

 

And there's this statement:

[
John 3:13
] No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven -- the Son of Man. (NIV)

 

Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. He never saw death. Does that mean Jesus was Elijah? If so, what did Jesus mean by the following statements?

[
John 3:16
] "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him
shall not perish
but have eternal life. (NIV)

 

[
John 8:50-51
] I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. [51] I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word,
he will never see death.
"

 

[
John 11:25-26
] Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; [26] and whoever lives and believes in me
will never die
. Do you believe this?" (NIV)

 

That sounds like the mantle of Melchizedek and the power of an endless life.

 

And Jesus said this, as well:

[
Revelation 2:26-28
] To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations -- [27] 'He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them to pieces like pottery' -- just as I have received authority from my Father. [28] I will also give him the morning star. (NIV)

 

Overcomes?

 

Here's another Overcomer:

[
Revelation 21:7
] He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. (NIV)

 

How does "he" get turned into "everybody" and "his" into "their"? Is there an argument in that regard? There's a Greek word that could have been used, "pas," and often was for English words like the two I just mentioned.

 

Hi Marlin. Christ is a title Jesus is the anglicized name Jeshua or Jehoshua. For a long time it was Jesus THE Christ and over time the word THE was dropped! Christ is Christos which is the greek equivalent of the Hebrew mesiach or Messiah or anointed one! Hope this helps

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You wrote:

"Well, if you have studies to back that up I would love to interact with them :RpS_wink:"

 

Well, if you can refute what I said I'd love to have it.

 

My friend, I said 'interact' and assume 'refute' - one thing I always endeavor to do is deal honestly with other people's words and I kind of expect the same. I am not seeking to be combative, but to understand. If I see what I believe I might try and refute it - But i said 'interact'

 

Now, in regards to what you have said, I am being entirely honest when I say I don't get your point. My answer to what I believe the main thrust of your OP is (based on the title) is that titles can also be used as names - I am both,'pastor' (name) and 'the pastor' (title). My wife is both 'doctor' (name) and 'the doctor' title. Jesus is both 'christ' 'name' and 'the Christ' title. So, that is my answer to what I believe to be the main thrust of your post, but if I am being entirely candid there is just so much that appears jumbled to me, that I can't make sense of everything else to interact meaningfully with it.

 

Take this for example:

 

I mean, would you admit that the word Christianity is an institutional concept that purports to occupy the Christhood? Or at least admit the tacit import? Or at least explain why the Book of Truth is called the "Christian Scriptures"? What are the realities of her origins? Why did she go to bed with Constantine? Why the need for political influence? How did that later empower the Inquisitions? Why is the Christian Right fixated on politics? What does it mean that the Vice President of the United States has advocated for an American Christian Theocracy? What motivates Christian leaders to urge Christians to seek political office from dog catcher to president? What was the first Council of Nicaea all about? What did that have to do with what had been written by the Followers of the Way? If knowing that Satan masquerades as an angel of light, can you point out and identify any of his servants who masquerade as ministers of righteousness? Do they wear black robes and have horns on their foreheads? What do they look like, act like, sound like, smell like? If you know any, or even one, why not do what Paul said about such insiders? (1 Corinthians 5:12)

 

I don't understand the grammer - I'm having to guess what your getting at! For example in this series of questions "Or at least explain why the Book of Truth is called the "Christian Scriptures"? What are the realities of her origins? Why did she go to bed with Constantine?" what you call 'the book of truth' seems to be the subject, so you are asking me why the book of truth got into bed with Constantine - now, I can assume you talking about the church but that is guesswork on my part.

 

1) Do you want address the origins of the bible or the church?

2) Do want me to talk about the relationship between the church and Constantine or the bible and Constantine?

 

I could write a long response and miss the point entirely.

 

Your also asking me a series of very random questions like: "What motivates Christian leaders to urge Christians to seek political office from dog catcher to president?" - Now, how do you expect to answer to an individuals motives? Also, bearing in mind that I am a Christian leader, and I have never encouraged anyone into politics - indeed I am on record as saying I don't believe Christians can be successful in politics in my country today I don't know what answer you want me to give.

 

As to naming false ministers - well I think you will find I have done that recently on this vert forum in regards to certain men in Nigeria - and as for what Paul says in 1 Cor 5:12, I'm sure your aware that is in a local church context and regarding church discipline and not simply false teachers - and I believe a quick look through our minutes books will show you that we practice church discipline when required.

 

All I can see is a series of loaded questions - which I am sure make a solid case to your mind - what I don't understand is why you not just spelling it out :RpS_bored:

 

It's to question what drives the supreme confidence about the times and what I observe as vaunted love and flaunted faith. I see no love. I see no faith, just masquerades.

 

Ok - so what evidence would you expect to see in regard to:

 

i) Love

ii) Faith

 

What are these things, to your way of thinking? (and note you might find I agree with you to a point, for I see a Christianity that is a mile wide, but in many places only an inch deep today)

 

It seems to me that you have written everyone off who claims to a Christian today, and you maintain that only you (and to a lesser extant your wife) are true followers of Jesus Christ - and you can throw a lot of scripture around that you believe makes your point and backs up everything your saying (just as the cults do) - so let me ask you some direct questions please:

 

1) Do you believe I am a follower of Jesus Christ?

 

2) Do you understand this forum to be made up of followers of Jesus Christ

 

3) Are you part of a church?

 

4) Do you accept that it is faith (and faith alone) that saves?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Marlin. Christ is a title Jesus is the anglicized name Jeshua or Jehoshua. For a long time it was Jesus THE Christ and over time the word THE was dropped! Christ is Christos which is the greek equivalent of the Hebrew mesiach or Messiah or anointed one! Hope this helps

 

Over time the word was dropped? Unless somebody tinkered with the original writings, the book we're talking about is nearing 2000 years old. What time are you talking about? That over the last 2000 years somebody was slowly "dropping" a small but important word out of the Scriptures? Christians obviously think that's a small thing, nothing to worry about. The Judge might not think so. I submit it would have better to have just left it alone.

 

If you meant translators were doing that dangerous tinkering you might have said so -- and also admitted, yet again, that it's a really bad idea to introduce subtle little kinks into the Truth. Who told you it was okay to tinker with the Word of the LORD or of the Elohim?

 

In fact, unless some really dangerous and crooked stuff was going on at Nicaea, you know, back when Christianity declared ownership of the Apostolic Writings, and by that contrived ownership did a lot of sorting ...,

[
John 21:25
] Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written. (NIV)

 

..., and who knows what else. I wrote on here somewhere that I didn't trust the Christian Scriptures. Typically, using the penchant for the semantic tweak, the Christian part was left off and I was accused of not trusting the Scriptures. See how that works?

 

But as if being forced to assume the version-ized "Bible" we have today represents the Truth, then you need to realize that the phrase, "the Christ" occurs only 48 times in most if not all New Testaments. The phrase Jesus Christ occurs 132 times. The phrase Christ Jesus only 86 times. What's going on here? What happened to the consistency that one has the right to expect from the Book of Truth? If you insist that nothing nefarious was done at the big shuffle of Nicaea, then who were (..., or are), the translators who left out the determiner and made "Jesus, the Christ" become 'Jesus Christ"?

 

Now, here's an honest question that no Christian has ever answered. I want to see if you will:

"Using a parabolic analogy, let's say one was a devout political follower of Mr. Trump. Would he call himself a "Trumpian" or a "Presidentian"? Would he say President Trump or Trump President?"

 

Why would the Truth let slide such an idiotic swap of name and title? Isn't Jesus Christ the same as saying Trump President..., or not? "Well, hello Trump President! Boy, you sure do have a funny last name!"

 

So what I want to know is, how did that nifty little turn-around get introduced into the scriptural record? For what purpose? It's published that way the world around. And if that quirk is established as having happened, what other quirks are in there. Who will be held responsible?

 

There's going to be an inquest:

[Daniel 7:9] "As I looked, "thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze. [10] A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened. (NIV)

 

[Hosea 9:7-8] The days of punishment are coming, the days of reckoning are at hand. Let Israel know this. Because your sins are so many and your hostility so great, the prophet is considered a fool, the inspired man a maniac. [8] The prophet, along with my God, is the watchman over Ephraim, yet snares await him on all his paths, and hostility in the house of his God. (NIV)

 

And then there's that strong delusion...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Over time the word was dropped? Unless somebody tinkered with the original writings, the book we're talking about is nearing 2000 years old. What time are you talking about? That over the last 2000 years somebody was slowly "dropping" a small but important word out of the Scriptures? Christians obviously think that's a small thing, nothing to worry about. The Judge might not think so. I submit it would have better to have just left it alone.

 

If you meant translators were doing that dangerous tinkering you might have said so -- and also admitted, yet again, that it's a really bad idea to introduce subtle little kinks into the Truth. Who told you it was okay to tinker with the Word of the LORD or of the Elohim?

 

In fact, unless some really dangerous and crooked stuff was going on at Nicaea, you know, back when Christianity declared ownership of the Apostolic Writings, and by that contrived ownership did a lot of sorting ...,

[
John 21:25
] Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written. (NIV)

 

..., and who knows what else. I wrote on here somewhere that I didn't trust the Christian Scriptures. Typically, using the penchant for the semantic tweak, the Christian part was left off and I was accused of not trusting the Scriptures. See how that works?

 

But as if being forced to assume the version-ized "Bible" we have today represents the Truth, then you need to realize that the phrase, "the Christ" occurs only 48 times in most if not all New Testaments. The phrase Jesus Christ occurs 132 times. The phrase Christ Jesus only 86 times. What's going on here? What happened to the consistency that one has the right to expect from the Book of Truth? If you insist that nothing nefarious was done at the big shuffle of Nicaea, then who were (..., or are), the translators who left out the determiner and made "Jesus, the Christ" become 'Jesus Christ"?

 

Now, here's an honest question that no Christian has ever answered. I want to see if you will:

"Using a parabolic analogy, let's say one was a devout political follower of Mr. Trump. Would he call himself a "Trumpian" or a "Presidentian"? Would he say President Trump or Trump President?"

 

Why would the Truth let slide such an idiotic swap of name and title? Isn't Jesus Christ the same as saying Trump President..., or not? "Well, hello Trump President! Boy, you sure do have a funny last name!"

 

So what I want to know is, how did that nifty little turn-around get introduced into the scriptural record? For what purpose? It's published that way the world around. And if that quirk is established as having happened, what other quirks are in there. Who will be held responsible?

 

There's going to be an inquest:

[Daniel 7:9] "As I looked, "thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze. [10] A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened. (NIV)

 

[Hosea 9:7-8] The days of punishment are coming, the days of reckoning are at hand. Let Israel know this. Because your sins are so many and your hostility so great, the prophet is considered a fool, the inspired man a maniac. [8] The prophet, along with my God, is the watchman over Ephraim, yet snares await him on all his paths, and hostility in the house of his God. (NIV)

 

And then there's that strong delusion...

 

Yeah, you might want to do some research and rid yourself of that strong delusion. It could drag your soul right off to Hell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote name=Marlin

 

As for a prophet: Malachi 4:5 "See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. (NIV)

 

Does that passage even exist?.

 

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

†Ἡλίας Hēlías, hay-lee'-as; of Hebrew origin (H452); Helias (i.e. Elijah), an Israelite:—Elias.

Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

 

Mark 8:28 And they answered, John the Baptist: but some say, Elias; and others, One of the prophets.

 

 

The name is used for everything which the name covers, everything the thought or feeling of which is aroused in the mind by mentioning, hearing, remembering, the name, i.e. for one's rank, authority, interests, pleasure, command, excellences, deeds etc.

The KJV translates Strong's G3686 in the following manner: name (193x), named (28x), called (4x), surname (with G2007) (2x), named (with G2564)

Name; Jesus is a popular name in Mexico. I’ve known Mexicans with that name. (hay-zoos) Clearly, when we pray in Christ’s name, we are not referring to just a title, We appealing to His rank, His authority. We’ve know His interests, have witnessed His deeds in our lives. We know He is excellent and made us for His pleasure…

I was a building contractor. When I sent someone to the building supply store they had my authority to charge whatever materials were needed to my account. It was not the letters that spelled my name, there are plenty others with the same one. They had my permission, knowledge and authority.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Another favorite

Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Merriam Webster

effectual: producing a desired result or effect.

Fervent: very hot, glowing, marked by great intensity of feeling.

Righteous: acting in accord with divine or moral law.

Prayer: an address (as a petition) to God or a god in word or thought…

Oh to personify these words…..

In Christ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
Articles - News - Privacy Policy