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The church and Daniel’s 70 week prophecy

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Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. (1 Peter 1:10,11 ESV)

 

The Old Testament prophets tell us of the suffering Christ experienced when he was crucified; they tell us of the glory associeated with his rule over the earth during the Millennium. But what do they say about the time between these two events, the time in which we are living now? The answer is: not much. In fact they say nothing about the most important aspect of this era, the formation of the church. The apostle Paul was given the task of revealing this truth to us.

 

When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. (Ephesians 3:4-6 ESV)

 

The Old Testament teaches that Gentiles will be saved; it never tells of the formation of a new body composed of both Jews and Gentiles. Paul not only teaches us about this body but he also tells how it will be removed from the earth through the event known as the rapture.

 

I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:50-52 ESV)

 

God promised Abraham that his descendants would become a great nation and one reason Christ came was to be the king of that nation. If the Jews had accepted him as their king it is possible that this nation would have been established then. They rejected him and as a result were scattered throughout the world. Romans 9-11 tells us their present condition. They are blind to the truth but they are still God’s chosen people and God will fulfill the promise he made to Abraham.

 

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

 

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,

he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;

“and this will be my covenant with them

when I take away their sins.” (Romans 11:25-27 ESV)

 

The knowledge that the church wasn’t foretold can help us understand one important prophecy.

 

While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my plea before the Lord my God for the holy hill of my God, while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the first, came to me in swift flight at the time of the evening sacrifice. He made me understand, speaking with me and saying, “O Daniel, I have now come out to give you insight and understanding. At the beginning of your pleas for mercy a word went out, and I have come to tell it to you, for you are greatly loved. Therefore consider the word and understand the vision.

 

“Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing.

 

“And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

 

“And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.” (Daniel 9:20-27 ESV)

 

The 70 weeks are periods of seven years. God foretold what would happen to Israel and to Jerusaken for the next 490 years. At the end of 69 weeks, or 483 years, an anointed one would be cut off. This refers to the crucifixion of Jesus. His death took place 483 years after the command to restore Jerusalem. If the Jews of Jesus’ time had been familiar with this prophecy they would have been looking for the Messiah.

 

The interpretation of the 70th week is controversial. Some believe that the 70th week immediately follows the 69th, that the one who makes the seven year covenant is Jesus, and that the ending of sacrifices and offering refers to his death, which rendered the sacrifices offered in the temple unnecessary. There are at least two problems with this interpreation. There is no record of Jesus ever making a seven year covenant with anybody and it fails to explain why the destruction of Jerusalem is mentioned before this week.

 

This prophecy is easier to understand if you consider that the church was established 50 days after the crucifxion and resurrection. This means that the entire church age takes place between the 69th and 70th weeks, so the 70th week is still in the future. The one who makes the seven year covenant is the prince whose people destroyed Jerusalem. He will make a treaty which will allow the Jews to rebuild the temple and resume making the sacrifices required by the Mosaic law. In the middle of the week he will end those sacrifces and demand that he be worshipped.

 

Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. (2 Thessalonians 2:3,4 ESV)

 

If you want to know more details about what happens during this week I recommend that your read chapters 4 to 19 of Revelation. And if you want to know more about Biblical prophecy you should check this site: raptureready.com .

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Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. (1 Peter 1:10,11 ESV)

 

The Old Testament prophets tell us of the suffering Christ experienced when he was crucified; they tell us of the glory associeated with his rule over the earth during the Millennium. But what do they say about the time between these two events, the time in which we are living now? The answer is: not much. In fact they say nothing about the most important aspect of this era, the formation of the church. The apostle Paul was given the task of revealing this truth to us.

 

When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. (Ephesians 3:4-6 ESV)

 

The Old Testament teaches that Gentiles will be saved; it never tells of the formation of a new body composed of both Jews and Gentiles. Paul not only teaches us about this body but he also tells how it will be removed from the earth through the event known as the rapture.

 

I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:50-52 ESV)

 

God promised Abraham that his descendants would become a great nation and one reason Christ came was to be the king of that nation. If the Jews had accepted him as their king it is possible that this nation would have been established then. They rejected him and as a result were scattered throughout the world. Romans 9-11 tells us their present condition. They are blind to the truth but they are still God’s chosen people and God will fulfill the promise he made to Abraham.

 

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

 

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,

he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;

“and this will be my covenant with them

when I take away their sins.” (Romans 11:25-27 ESV)

 

The knowledge that the church wasn’t foretold can help us understand one important prophecy.

 

While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my plea before the Lord my God for the holy hill of my God, while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the first, came to me in swift flight at the time of the evening sacrifice. He made me understand, speaking with me and saying, “O Daniel, I have now come out to give you insight and understanding. At the beginning of your pleas for mercy a word went out, and I have come to tell it to you, for you are greatly loved. Therefore consider the word and understand the vision.

 

“Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing.

 

“And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

 

“And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.” (Daniel 9:20-27 ESV)

 

The 70 weeks are periods of seven years. God foretold what would happen to Israel and to Jerusaken for the next 490 years. At the end of 69 weeks, or 483 years, an anointed one would be cut off. This refers to the crucifixion of Jesus. His death took place 483 years after the command to restore Jerusalem. If the Jews of Jesus’ time had been familiar with this prophecy they would have been looking for the Messiah.

 

The interpretation of the 70th week is controversial. Some believe that the 70th week immediately follows the 69th, that the one who makes the seven year covenant is Jesus, and that the ending of sacrifices and offering refers to his death, which rendered the sacrifices offered in the temple unnecessary. There are at least two problems with this interpreation. There is no record of Jesus ever making a seven year covenant with anybody and it fails to explain why the destruction of Jerusalem is mentioned before this week.

 

This prophecy is easier to understand if you consider that the church was established 50 days after the crucifxion and resurrection. This means that the entire church age takes place between the 69th and 70th weeks, so the 70th week is still in the future. The one who makes the seven year covenant is the prince whose people destroyed Jerusalem. He will make a treaty which will allow the Jews to rebuild the temple and resume making the sacrifices required by the Mosaic law. In the middle of the week he will end those sacrifces and demand that he be worshipped.

 

Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. (2 Thessalonians 2:3,4 ESV)

 

If you want to know more details about what happens during this week I recommend that your read chapters 4 to 19 of Revelation. And if you want to know more about Biblical prophecy you should check this site: raptureready.com .

 

Excellent post!

 

those who hold to preterism are the ones who say all 70 weeks occur without break. they spiritualize Scriptures so terribly to arrive at their conclusions.

 

Excellent post.

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those who hold to preterism are the ones who say all 70 weeks occur without break. they spiritualize Scriptures so terribly to arrive at their conclusions.

Hi Brother @nolidad, thanks for this information. Now I can tell my wife what I really am.

If you don't mind, I'll just paste the following scripture, and ask which blessing is not manifest already that we need another week? Thanks.

 

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

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I'm about to go out to a meeting at Chapel - I will post on this when I get back for know let me just ask two things:

 

1) What date was the command to 'restore Jerusalem' given?

 

2) Are you suggesting that these 'weeks' are not literal weeks (as in 7x24 hour days) - i just wonder why I am take to 1000 years of Rev 20 in that way, but not the 70 'weeks' of Daniel 7 - can you clarify this?

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I'm about to go out to a meeting at Chapel - I will post on this when I get back for know let me just ask two things:

 

1) What date was the command to 'restore Jerusalem' given?

483 years prior to Jesus riding into Jerusalem in Mt 21:1-11? And we must be aware that their calendar was different than ours.

In Ezekiel 4:6 we read that "I have appointed thee each day for a year. That would be 173880 days @ 483 x 360.

If I've correctly got the date, it was 444 BC. Neh 2:1 And it came to pass in the month Nisan, in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king,

 

2) Are you suggesting that these 'weeks' are not literal weeks (as in 7x24 hour days) - i just wonder why I am take to 1000 years of Rev 20 in that way, but not the 70 'weeks' of Daniel 7 - can you clarify this?

I'm not sure what you are asking here other than the fact that in using day/year counting we have to subtract 5 days for each year prophesied from our calendar. I firmly believe a prophesied thousand years is a thousand years at the 360 day calendar. If it isn't I expect to be in heaven with my Savior Jesus face to face.

 

 

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Thanks for the answers.

 

 

483 years prior to Jesus riding into Jerusalem in Mt 21:1-11? And we must be aware that their calendar was different than ours.

In Ezekiel 4:6 we read that "I have appointed thee each day for a year. That would be 173880 days @ 483 x 360.

If I've correctly got the date, it was 444 BC. Neh 2:1 And it came to pass in the month Nisan, in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king,

 

Ok, so what year does that put the triumphal entry in your calculation?

 

moving on, how many days there are in a year is not relevant - the idea is that these 'sevens' are years!

 

The original captivity took place 605BC (Dan 1:1), Daniel received this vision in 537BC (Dan 9:1) and we know from Jeremiah 25:11 & 29:10-14 that the captivity was to last 70 years - that means the captivity came to an end in 535BC - the decree was Issued by Cyrus in 536Bc, and the foundation of the temple laid in 535BC (Ezra 3:8). The work stops of 15 years (Cyrus died in 529BC, and his successor in 522BC). it is under Darius Hystaspes that the work begins. Haggai preaches his first sermon in 520BC (Haggai 1:1-11). the temple is completes in 515BC.Ezra come on to the scene in about 458BC and the Nehemiah in 444BC - 483 years after that is AD38/9

 

So if we take it that the messiah will be cut off half way through the final seven (as some do) I can understand how that gets us roughly to about the right time - but it is only roughly. No one has ever made the dates tie up exactly.

 

I'm not sure what you are asking here other than the fact that in using day/year counting we have to subtract 5 days for each year prophesied from our calendar. I firmly believe a prophesied thousand years is a thousand years at the 360 day calendar. If it isn't I expect to be in heaven with my Savior Jesus face to face.

 

Really, I thought my question was quite clear, let me try it a different way :RpS_cool:

 

1) When it comes to Rev 20 the futurist expects me to read that the 'years' in the millennium are literal, (ie 365 or 360 24 days)

 

2) However when it comes to Daniel 7 and these 'sevens', according to the futurist, I am to read them not as weeks (7x24 hour days) but as years

 

Coming at this from a historsist point of view this completely looses me - I could understand if both were taken to mean a literal year and a literal week, or if both were taken to picture a period of time - but this just seems so inconsistent to me - it appears to me that what is happening is the text is being interpreted to fit with the theology, ie Rev 20 must be a literal millennium because we need it to to make our theology work, but in Dan 7 these must week must symbolize years because we need them to to make our theology work.

 

I might be totally off the mark, but as no one has ever provided a satisfactory answer to this question I am left wondering.

 

Now, the truth is I have no trouble believing that the sevens could be years (after all I believe that the years in Rev 20 are not literal years either - so I am being consistent) and I agree that if this prophecy is that precise by the time of Jesus ministry there would have been a great exception of the messiah, and that is exactly what we see in the gospels. I have no problem with that - no what I have a huge problem with is statements like this:

 

This prophecy is easier to understand if you consider that the church was established 50 days after the crucifxion and resurrection. This means that the entire church age takes place between the 69th and 70th weeks, so the 70th week is still in the future. The one who makes the seven year covenant is the prince whose people destroyed Jerusalem. He will make a treaty which will allow the Jews to rebuild the temple and resume making the sacrifices required by the Mosaic law. In the middle of the week he will end those sacrifces and demand that he be worshipped.

 

We have been looking at a prophecy in which these sevens have up to this point been understood as years (each 'seven' has represented 7 years) however now I am being told that I must take this final 7 to represent 'the church age' which is about 2000 years old and still going strong. So, despite the fact I haven't been any hermetical queue to change my method of interpretation I am suddenly expected to understand these 'sevens' in a very different way. This is completely arbitrary and inconstant (and both are signs of a failed argument)

 

To my mind this is a self refuting position for this very reason that just goes to show that interpretation of the text is being presented here is driven by theology, rather then theology by the interpretation of the text. The simple truth is the futurist wants the seventy 'sevens' to be years because it's close enough to the period of Jesus life, and they want the last 'seven' to not be years because that allows them to fit everything else in that they need to make their system work.

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Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

Jesus has made reconciliation of iniquity by his death and resurrection. As far as I see none of the others has been fulfilled.

 

Are you suggesting that these 'weeks' are not literal weeks (as in 7x24 hour days) - i just wonder why I am take to 1000 years of Rev 20 in that way, but not the 70 'weeks' of Daniel 7 - can you clarify this?

 

The word translated "week" is actually "seven", meaning a group of seven objects of any kind. In the Hebrew calender every seventh year was a Sabbath year, when the land had rest.

 

The Lord spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai, saying, “Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When you come into the land that I give you, the land shall keep a Sabbath to the Lord. For six years you shall sow your field, and for six years you shall prune your vineyard and gather in its fruits, but in the seventh year there shall be a Sabbath of solemn rest for the land, a Sabbath to the Lord. You shall not sow your field or prune your vineyard. You shall not reap what grows of itself in your harvest, or gather the grapes of your undressed vine. It shall be a year of solemn rest for the land. The Sabbath of the land shall provide food for you, for yourself and for your male and female slaves and for your hired worker and the sojourner who lives with you, and for your cattle and for the wild animals that are in your land: all its yield shall be for food.

Leviticus 25:1-7 ESV

 

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The word translated "week" is actually "seven", meaning a group of seven objects of any kind.

 

Actually that is wrong שָׁבֻעִ֖ים is literally, a period of seven - it could mean seven days or 7 years. It's most common use is to refer to a week though (as in seven days) see for example, Gn 29:27-28; Lv 12:5; Ex 34:22, 2 Chron 8:13; Je 5:24. In fact, setting aside the references in Dan 9 that we are considering i would suggest that every other occurrence of this word is a literal week:

 

NKJ Genesis 29:27 "Fulfill her week, and we will give you this one also for the service which you will serve with me still another seven years."

 

NKJ Genesis 29:28 Then Jacob did so and fulfilled her week. So he gave him his daughter Rachel as wife also.

 

NKJ Exodus 34:22 "And you shall observe the Feast of Weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the year's end.

 

NKJ Leviticus 12:5 `But if she bears a female child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her customary impurity, and she shall continue in the blood of her purification sixty-six days.

 

NKJ Numbers 28:26 `Also on the day of the firstfruits, when you bring a new grain offering to the LORD at your Feast of Weeks, you shall have a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work.

 

NKJ Deuteronomy 16:9 "You shall count seven weeks for yourself; begin to count the seven weeks from the time you begin to put the sickle to the grain.

 

NKJ Deuteronomy 16:10 "Then you shall keep the Feast of Weeks to the LORD your God with the tribute of a freewill offering from your hand, which you shall give as the LORD your God blesses you.

 

NKJ Deuteronomy 16:16 "Three times a year all your males shall appear before the LORD your God in the place which He chooses: at the Feast of Unleavened Bread, at the Feast of Weeks, and at the Feast of Tabernacles; and they shall not appear before the LORD empty-handed.

 

NKJ 2 Chronicles 8:13 according to the daily rate, offering according to the commandment of Moses, for the Sabbaths, the New Moons, and the three appointed yearly feasts-- the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Weeks, and the Feast of Tabernacles.

 

NKJ Jeremiah 5:24 They do not say in their heart, "Let us now fear the LORD our God, Who gives rain, both the former and the latter, in its season. He reserves for us the appointed weeks of the harvest."

 

NKJ Ezekiel 45:21 "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, you shall observe the Passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.

 

NKJ Daniel 9:24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.

 

NKJ Daniel 9:25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.

 

NKJ Daniel 9:26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

 

NKJ Daniel 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

 

NKJ Daniel 10:2 In those days I, Daniel, was mourning three full weeks.

 

NKJ Daniel 10:3 I ate no pleasant food, no meat or wine came into my mouth, nor did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.

 

So, you can see why I asked - however, for the time being lets assume your correct and these are sevens of years

 

Now moving on from that question, having established that a 'seven' refers to 7 years - I have questions

 

1) What is the period of time covered by the final 'seven'

 

2) What hermeneutical queue is there for to suddenly change how I understand this term from one phrase to the next?

 

3) bearing in mind that שָׁבוּעַ has the sense of a specific and relatively short period of time, is it really within the semantic range of the etrm to discribe a period of history that has lasted around 2000 years and show no sign of coming to an end today?

 

 

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I agree that the week/years were symbolic as stated but I also believe the 1000 year millennial reign is also symbolic.

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I agree that the week/years were symbolic as stated but I also believe the 1000 year millennial reign is also symbolic.

On what basis do you believe the 1,000 yr reign in symbolic.

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The word translated "week" is actually "seven", meaning a group of seven objects of any kind.

 

Actually that is wrong שָׁבֻעִ֖ים is literally, a period of seven - it could mean seven days or 7 years. It's most common use is to refer to a week though (as in seven days) see for example, Gn 29:27-28; Lv 12:5; Ex 34:22, 2 Chron 8:13; Je 5:24. In fact, setting aside the references in Dan 9 that we are considering i would suggest that every other occurrence of this word is a literal week:

 

NKJ Genesis 29:27 "Fulfill her week, and we will give you this one also for the service which you will serve with me still another seven years."

 

NKJ Genesis 29:28 Then Jacob did so and fulfilled her week. So he gave him his daughter Rachel as wife also.

 

NKJ Exodus 34:22 "And you shall observe the Feast of Weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the year's end.

 

NKJ Leviticus 12:5 `But if she bears a female child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her customary impurity, and she shall continue in the blood of her purification sixty-six days.

 

NKJ Numbers 28:26 `Also on the day of the firstfruits, when you bring a new grain offering to the LORD at your Feast of Weeks, you shall have a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work.

 

NKJ Deuteronomy 16:9 "You shall count seven weeks for yourself; begin to count the seven weeks from the time you begin to put the sickle to the grain.

 

NKJ Deuteronomy 16:10 "Then you shall keep the Feast of Weeks to the LORD your God with the tribute of a freewill offering from your hand, which you shall give as the LORD your God blesses you.

 

NKJ Deuteronomy 16:16 "Three times a year all your males shall appear before the LORD your God in the place which He chooses: at the Feast of Unleavened Bread, at the Feast of Weeks, and at the Feast of Tabernacles; and they shall not appear before the LORD empty-handed.

 

NKJ 2 Chronicles 8:13 according to the daily rate, offering according to the commandment of Moses, for the Sabbaths, the New Moons, and the three appointed yearly feasts-- the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Weeks, and the Feast of Tabernacles.

 

NKJ Jeremiah 5:24 They do not say in their heart, "Let us now fear the LORD our God, Who gives rain, both the former and the latter, in its season. He reserves for us the appointed weeks of the harvest."

 

NKJ Ezekiel 45:21 "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, you shall observe the Passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.

 

NKJ Daniel 9:24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.

 

NKJ Daniel 9:25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.

 

NKJ Daniel 9:26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

 

NKJ Daniel 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

 

NKJ Daniel 10:2 In those days I, Daniel, was mourning three full weeks.

 

NKJ Daniel 10:3 I ate no pleasant food, no meat or wine came into my mouth, nor did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.

 

So, you can see why I asked - however, for the time being lets assume your correct and these are sevens of years

 

Now moving on from that question, having established that a 'seven' refers to 7 years - I have questions

 

1) What is the period of time covered by the final 'seven'

 

2) What hermeneutical queue is there for to suddenly change how I understand this term from one phrase to the next?

 

3) bearing in mind that שָׁבוּעַ has the sense of a specific and relatively short period of time, is it really within the semantic range of the etrm to discribe a period of history that has lasted around 2000 years and show no sign of coming to an end today?

 

Your Daniel 9:27 passage -- Can mean that the last 7 is in the future -- in the middle of that 7 yr period -- the Great Tribulation will begin and last for 3 1/2 yrs.

 

1) the final 7 is the coming 7 yrs of tribulation after the Church has been raptured up and out.

 

3) we Do see signs of this time in history coming to an end. Wars and rumors of More wars -- falling away from the truths of God's Word is more and more obvious in Society. That which was once Wrong is now considered mostly okay and that which Should be okay is Wrong.

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I agree that the week/years were symbolic as stated but I also believe the 1000 year millennial reign is also symbolic.

2 Peter 3:8 "With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day." Similar is stated in the Psalms. In other words, God transcends time so it is hard to say the exact equation for this thousand year reign.

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I agree that the week/years were symbolic as stated but I also believe the 1000 year millennial reign is also symbolic.

Do you believe that the 6 - 24 hr days of creation are also symbolic?

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I can understand how that gets us roughly to about the right time - but it is only roughly. No one has ever made the dates tie up exactly.

From what I've seen, there's not even a set time on Jesus' birth, and different times for Jesus' entrance into Jerusalem. I reckon it's not going to change the price of rice in China. Do I believe Jesus came, died, and is in heaven today? YES! Do I believe I will be with Him face to face someday? YES! Earlier when I said I hope I've got the figures correct, they were not my calculations, but those of expositors whose calculations I copied.

the futurist

Futurist? OK, I think I'm beginning to understand. :RpS_huh:

 

 

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I can understand how that gets us roughly to about the right time - but it is only roughly. No one has ever made the dates tie up exactly.

From what I've seen, there's not even a set time on Jesus' birth, and different times for Jesus' entrance into Jerusalem. I reckon it's not going to change the price of rice in China. Do I believe Jesus came, died, and is in heaven today? YES! Do I believe I will be with Him face to face someday? YES! Earlier when I said I hope I've got the figures correct, they were not my calculations, but those of expositors whose calculations I copied.

the futurist

Futurist? OK, I think I'm beginning to understand. :RpS_huh:

 

You said that you believe the Jesus came, died and is in heaven today. Is Jesus Christ the Son of God? He Did die but do you believe He was bodily resurrected from the dead. And do you believe that He's in heaven because of His bodily ascension that is presented in Acts 1?

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You said that you believe the Jesus came, died and is in heaven today. Is Jesus Christ the Son of God? He Did die but do you believe He was bodily resurrected from the dead. And do you believe that He's in heaven because of His bodily ascension that is presented in Acts 1?

Yes I do.

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The word translated "week" is actually "seven", meaning a group of seven objects of any kind.

 

Actually that is wrong שָׁבֻעִ֖ים is literally, a period of seven - it could mean seven days or 7 years. It's most common use is to refer to a week though (as in seven days) see for example, Gn 29:27-28; Lv 12:5; Ex 34:22, 2 Chron 8:13; Je 5:24. In fact, setting aside the references in Dan 9 that we are considering i would suggest that every other occurrence of this word is a literal week:

 

NKJ Genesis 29:27 "Fulfill her week, and we will give you this one also for the service which you will serve with me still another seven years."

 

NKJ Genesis 29:28 Then Jacob did so and fulfilled her week. So he gave him his daughter Rachel as wife also.

 

NKJ Exodus 34:22 "And you shall observe the Feast of Weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the year's end.

 

NKJ Leviticus 12:5 `But if she bears a female child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her customary impurity, and she shall continue in the blood of her purification sixty-six days.

 

NKJ Numbers 28:26 `Also on the day of the firstfruits, when you bring a new grain offering to the LORD at your Feast of Weeks, you shall have a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work.

 

NKJ Deuteronomy 16:9 "You shall count seven weeks for yourself; begin to count the seven weeks from the time you begin to put the sickle to the grain.

 

NKJ Deuteronomy 16:10 "Then you shall keep the Feast of Weeks to the LORD your God with the tribute of a freewill offering from your hand, which you shall give as the LORD your God blesses you.

 

NKJ Deuteronomy 16:16 "Three times a year all your males shall appear before the LORD your God in the place which He chooses: at the Feast of Unleavened Bread, at the Feast of Weeks, and at the Feast of Tabernacles; and they shall not appear before the LORD empty-handed.

 

NKJ 2 Chronicles 8:13 according to the daily rate, offering according to the commandment of Moses, for the Sabbaths, the New Moons, and the three appointed yearly feasts-- the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Weeks, and the Feast of Tabernacles.

 

NKJ Jeremiah 5:24 They do not say in their heart, "Let us now fear the LORD our God, Who gives rain, both the former and the latter, in its season. He reserves for us the appointed weeks of the harvest."

 

NKJ Ezekiel 45:21 "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, you shall observe the Passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.

 

NKJ Daniel 9:24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.

 

NKJ Daniel 9:25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.

 

NKJ Daniel 9:26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

 

NKJ Daniel 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

 

NKJ Daniel 10:2 In those days I, Daniel, was mourning three full weeks.

 

NKJ Daniel 10:3 I ate no pleasant food, no meat or wine came into my mouth, nor did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.

 

So, you can see why I asked - however, for the time being lets assume your correct and these are sevens of years

 

Now moving on from that question, having established that a 'seven' refers to 7 years - I have questions

 

1) What is the period of time covered by the final 'seven'

 

2) What hermeneutical queue is there for to suddenly change how I understand this term from one phrase to the next?

 

3) bearing in mind that שָׁבוּעַ has the sense of a specific and relatively short period of time, is it really within the semantic range of the etrm to discribe a period of history that has lasted around 2000 years and show no sign of coming to an end today?

 

That is your tradition that allows you to make that jump, there is nothing in the text that suggests or implies it, it simply isn't there (like the word 'literal' in Rev 20

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Let me sum up my biggest problem with all these futurist interpretations of these texts of scripture - it can be summed up in one word: inconsistency

 

Just think of some of the things we have been expected to accept:

 

1) Rev 20 speaks of literal years, but in Dan 9 the Hebrew term for 'week' must mean a weak of years and not days (despite it never been used in that sense elsewhere)

 

2) Dan 9 isn't that simple though because the last 'week' is either

a) the church age - ie 2000 years and counting, or

b) separated from the other sevens despite there being no reason to separate it (except tradition)

3) Ezek 40-48 speaks of physical millenial temple (despite the fact this temple is not even in a city) but the sacrifices offered in it aren't literal (their symbols)

 

4) Rev 20 doesn't talk about Israel, Jerusalem or a temple - but it is all about the millennial reign of Christ over Israel, in Jerusalem where the temple is!

 

5) Rev 4:1 signifies a huge jump in time, but all the others verses in Rev that use the same wording don't

 

and that is just from posts in the last week :RpS_ohmy:

 

Simply put, it is my opinion that, the Bible is not be allowed to speak for itself rather it is the tradition that that speaks, and the bible is being made to fit into that tradition hence the inconsistency.

 

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1) Rev 20 speaks of literal years, but in Dan 9 the Hebrew term for 'week' must mean a weak of years and not days (despite it never been used in that sense elsewhere)

 

I pointed out in post #8 that the Hebrew calendar does include weeks of years. Daniel 9 is just as literal as Revelation 20.

 

2) Dan 9 isn't that simple though because the last 'week' is either

a) the church age - ie 2000 years and counting, or

b) separated from the other sevens despite there being no reason to separate it (except tradition)

 

Take a look at what the prophecy actually says.

 

And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

Daniel 9:26

 

These events follow the end of the 69th week. They incluce the destruction of Jerualem, which took place almost 40 years later. Then the 70th week occurs after this.

 

And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.

Daniel 8:27

 

This shows that a long period of time must elapse between the 69th and 70th weeks.

 

3) Ezek 40-48 speaks of physical millenial temple (despite the fact this temple is not even in a city) but the sacrifices offered in it aren't literal (their symbols)

 

Why do you say they aren't literal?

 

4) Rev 20 doesn't talk about Israel, Jerusalem or a temple - but it is all about the millennial reign of Christ over Israel, in Jerusalem where the temple is!

 

Zechariah 14 describes the details of Christ's return. There was no need to repeat what the readers already knew.

 

5) Rev 4:1 signifies a huge jump in time, but all the others verses in Rev that use the same wording don't

This verse represents a transition in the topics discussed. Chapters 2 and 3 are letters to churches; they are speaking about our present age. After the start of chapter 4 the church isn't mentioned until chapter 19 but Israel is often referred to.

 

Simply put, it is my opinion that, the Bible is not be allowed to speak for itself rather it is the tradition that that speaks, and the bible is being made to fit into that tradition hence the inconsistency.

Aren't the inconsistancies of the amilleniel tradition just as great?

 

 

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This shows that a long period of time must elapse between the 69th and 70th weeks.

 

No, it shows that according to your tradition there needs to be a break between the 69th and 70th week to make it all work. I can make it work by having the prophecy come to an end in AD70 and I don't have to insert an arbitrary break to do so :RpS_glare:

 

 

There was no need to repeat what the readers already knew.

Can you establish that through exegesis - or is it another assertion? I don't think - in Zach 14 doesn't the battle happen at the beginning, rather then then end as in Rev 20?

 

I see quite a bit of repetition in the bible.

 

 

Aren't the inconsistancies of the amilleniel tradition just as great?

 

No, it is an entirely coherent position that allows the exegete to read the bible in a consistent fashion without having to look to his tradition to determine if a text is 'literal' or 'symbolic', in fact it a position that reads the whole Bible in agenuine literal sense (ie seeks to understand the sense in which the author was writing) - but of course that is juts my opinion, and I'm sure you disagree with me on that

Zechariah 14 describes the details of Christ's return.

:RpS_thumbup:

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those who hold to preterism are the ones who say all 70 weeks occur without break. they spiritualize Scriptures so terribly to arrive at their conclusions.

Hi Brother @nolidad, thanks for this information. Now I can tell my wife what I really am.

If you don't mind, I'll just paste the following scripture, and ask which blessing is not manifest already that we need another week? Thanks.

 

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Well sin hasn't ended, transgression hasn't ended, prophecy and visions were not sealed up by the end of Jesus ministry.

 

But think about the revelation given to JOhn- How could that have happened as well as the olivet discourse if the 70 "weeks" were fulfilled around 40 AD

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I'm about to go out to a meeting at Chapel - I will post on this when I get back for know let me just ask two things:

 

1) What date was the command to 'restore Jerusalem' given?

 

2) Are you suggesting that these 'weeks' are not literal weeks (as in 7x24 hour days) - i just wonder why I am take to 1000 years of Rev 20 in that way, but not the 70 'weeks' of Daniel 7 - can you clarify this?

Because the word used doesn't specifically mean week. It is shabuwa which specifically means a heptad or seven- so the Prophecy was for 70 7 sevens and the future from that point showed it to mean 490 years not weeks!

 

there is an excellent book entitled "The coming Prince" by Sir Anderson ( if i remember correctly) that goes into great detail showing the breakdown of 7 year periods in Daniel and the 69 weeks fulfilled to the day at Palm Sunday when Jesus was hailed as Messiah!

 

These are small answers for very detailed prophecies.

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I agree that the week/years were symbolic as stated but I also believe the 1000 year millennial reign is also symbolic.

So you do not believe in teh physical return of Jesus to earth then?

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I agree that the week/years were symbolic as stated but I also believe the 1000 year millennial reign is also symbolic.

But Peter is definitely making an analogy so we know this is not literal. He is talking about the patience of god toward sinful man! It is not a cornerstone verse to make doctrine on how God views time. If that is the case do you think Jesus is still in the tomb? After all he said three days! Doesn't that mean 3,000 years?????

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