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Faber

"The Trinity isn't true because God isn't the author of confusion" (1 Corinthians 14:33)

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1 Corinthians 14:33

for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. (NASB)

Some who deny the Trinity will sometimes cite 1 Corinthians 14:33[*1] in thinking that because God is not the author of confusion the Trinity can't be true because it is confusing to believe that the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit are the 1 true God of the Bible.

 

The following reasons are why their position is to be rejected:

1. The nature of God is not predicated on how man arbitrarily chooses to think (reason) about Him (cf. Acts 17:29) but rather on how Scripture actually reveals Him (Acts 17:11). Even "now we see in a mirror dimly" when it comes to knowing God and the ways of God (1 Corinthians 13:12).

2. Those who affirm they believe what the Bible says and yet reject the Trinity because it can not be fully understood are not consistent with their own logic, for they would readily affirm their own existence (and the existence of others) despite having an incomplete understanding of its physical and spiritual composition. Furthermore, they would not reject the omniscience nor the greatness of God despite the fact that both are beyond the reach of complete human understanding (Psalms 139:6; 145:3).[*2]

3. If one can accept the Scriptural testimony concerning the acts of God (miracles) then it is incumbent upon them to accept from the same Scriptures describing the nature of God.

4. The context of 1 Corinthians 14:33 is of remedying confusing practices within the church.[*3]

 

 

 

[*1] The Watchtower: Marco, quoted in an earlier article, saw the Trinity as a barrier. “I thought God was hiding his identity from me,” he says, “and that just made him even more distant, mysterious, and unapproachable.” However, “God is not a God of confusion." (1 Corinthians 14:33, American Standard Version) (The Lie That Made God a Mystery, November 1, 2013).

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2013804

 

[*2] Reasoning from the Scriptures: Did God have a beginning?

Ps. 90:2 “Before the mountains themselves were born, or you proceeded to bring forth as with labor pains the earth and the productive land, even from time indefinite to time indefinite you are God.”

Is that reasonable? Our minds cannot fully comprehend it. But that is not a sound reason for rejecting it. (God)

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989230

Admitting, that "our minds can not fully comprehend" the eternity of God the Jehovah's Witnesses cite a Bible passage to affirm this truth. This is precisely what should be the ultimate criteria for determining whether or not the Trinity is true. One can just as easily respond to the Jehovah's Witnesses (and others) by pointing out that since God always existed in eternity past this can be confusing for some people, and since God is not the author of confusion their belief in Him is suspect.

 

[*3] See the insightful article found in CARM:

https://carm.org/does-the-trinity-ma...r-of-confusion

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If the trinity isn't true, then there is no salvation possible.

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I've never been sure why people find the concept of the trinity confusing. Our church used the trefoil (clover) as a metaphor for children: each of the three parts is a leaf in its own right, but the whole is one leaf, not three.

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If the trinity isn't true, then there is no salvation possible.

Hi Sue D,

 

Why?

 

Yours, Deade

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I've never been sure why people find the concept of the trinity confusing. Our church used the trefoil (clover) as a metaphor for children: each of the three parts is a leaf in its own right, but the whole is one leaf, not three.

Hi ChatterBox,

 

Please explain to me the importance of the trinity to our salvation. Trinity is a label, you label me you limit me. Just like Faber pointed out God is beyond our understanding. I think labeling the Holy Spirit, as a person, is where we fail.

 

Yours, Deade

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I've never been sure why people find the concept of the trinity confusing. Our church used the trefoil (clover) as a metaphor for children: each of the three parts is a leaf in its own right, but the whole is one leaf, not three.

@deade, hope you don't mind me chiming in? You asked, "please explain to me the importance of the trinity to our salvation." Lemme ask you whether you think these questions are essential which follow three areas of the Christian life:

 

1) The way we pray -- To whom can we pray? Is it more effective to pray to the Father than to the Son? Is there more than one God?

2) The way we worship -- Who can we name as the object(s) of our worship? What truths can we proclaim in his/their praise?

3) The way we think about our relationships with each other and with God -- In our union with Christ, are we united only to a man? Only to God? Only to a god? Can we become gods too?

 

Not all scholars and/or Christians agree on every technical aspect of Christian doctrine, but all scholastic / Christians agree to the essential aspects of Trinitarian doctrine. And though there should be great tolerance towards theological ignorance it's the lack of understanding of Trinitarian doctrines that deprives one of rich opportunities for growth and worship.

 

Lastly, what you call a label is a theological term. No different really than any other field that specializes in any area of study. In the general sense, a term describes a theology that draws its material from the Bible. For example, I am Reformed theologically, which implicitly denies other theologies, such as Catholic theology (which Reformed theology rose in opposition to) and Arminian theology (which later rose in opposition to Reformed theology).

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Hello Deade,

 

How would you define the Holy Spirit if He is not a Person?

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Hello Deade,

 

How would you define the Holy Spirit if He is not a Person?

 

Hi Faber:

 

In my church I attend, I taught a twelve week course on the trinity.If you run into any situations that you need help- would be honored to serve.

 

MODERATION: NO ADS WITHOUT MODERATOR CONSENT

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I've never been sure why people find the concept of the trinity confusing. Our church used the trefoil (clover) as a metaphor for children: each of the three parts is a leaf in its own right, but the whole is one leaf, not three.

 

I understand the object lesson for children. As we mature, in reality there is no true way of explaining the Trinity, we except the Threee being one (called the Trinity) by faith. I don't think there are words to explain the God Head, every attempt in doing so falls sho, or totally fails. I finally came to just take exactly what the Bible says as it says about God the Father, the only Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

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Hi Faber:

 

In my church I attend, I taught a twelve week course on the trinity.If you run into any situations that you need help- would be honored to serve. Also you can go to www.ariel.org /click on resources/click on come and see/click studies and there is an excellent manuscript free to download on the defense and study of the Trinity!

 

I think your offer is wonderful; but on the same token you need to clear this with William the owner of the Christforums. Posting this as you have is a advertisement for your web site. I suggest you "edit" you post and ask William on how to advertise on his web site. William has a way for you to pay for advertise on his Christforums.

Edited by Just Mike

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If the trinity isn't true, then there is no salvation possible.

Just realized I haven't answered your question -- the trinity is comprised of God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ --- Jesus Christ being born was God incarnate -- Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins -- the Holy Spirit comes to indwell each believer at the moment of their salvation. And it was the Holy Spirit who came upon Mary so that Jesus Christ would be all man and all God. So -- without the trinity there would be no salvation. Hopefully 'this' makes sense to you. Of course -- even if it Doesn't make sense -- it still did take place. :)

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I've never been sure why people find the concept of the trinity confusing. Our church used the trefoil (clover) as a metaphor for children: each of the three parts is a leaf in its own right, but the whole is one leaf, not three.

And there's also the example of the egg -- the yoke has it's job, as does the white and the shell.

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Hello Deade,

 

How would you define the Holy Spirit if He is not a Person?

 

Hi Faber:

 

In my church I attend, I taught a twelve week course on the trinity.If you run into any situations that you need help- would be honored to serve.

 

MODERATION: NO ADS WITHOUT MODERATOR CONSENT

Maybe as an 'entity'?

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If the trinity isn't true, then there is no salvation possible.

Way to go Sue D, I agree entirely. What Jesus did for has nothing to do with defining the HS. It does define the Father/Son relationship. Yours, Deade

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Hello Deade,

 

How would you define the Holy Spirit if He is not a Person?

Hi Faber, William and Sue D,

 

I usually pray to my Heavenly Father as instructed by Jesus. I think it might be OK to pray to Jesus as some do, but I don't. Anyway, they wouldn't get jealous of each other. The scripture says if you have one you have the other.

Now, about the HS. I like Sue D's response in comment 5.1. Entity works for me. I am just saying the HS is everywhere at all times. I can't fathom that with my finite brain. I also can't fathom God having always existed: everything I experience has a beginning and an end. The HS is what makes God: God. I hope that clears it up.

Yours, Deade

Edited by deade

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I think your offer is wonderful; but on the same token you need to clear this with William the owner of the Christforums. Posting this as you have is a advertisement for your web site. I suggest you "edit" you post and ask William on how to advertise on his web site. William has a way for you to pay for advertise on his Christforums.

 

Well I apologize, but it is not my web site! are we allowed to recommend other sites? I am afraid I did not read the terms as carefully as I should have.

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I think your offer is wonderful; but on the same token you need to clear this with William the owner of the Christforums. Posting this as you have is a advertisement for your web site. I suggest you "edit" you post and ask William on how to advertise on his web site. William has a way for you to pay for advertise on his Christforums.

 

Well I apologize, but it is not my web site! are we allowed to recommend other sites? I am afraid I did not read the terms as carefully as I should have.

If you're quoting someone then you may and are encouraged to provide the source. However, we discourage "self-promotion" and advertising of material. We can't check every single link that is made to see whether someone is trying to make a commission on Amazon.

 

Your links could of been misinterpreted as self promotion, we'll let you be honest about that and either continue or refrain. If however, you're wanting self-promotion then for 10 dollars a month we allow a sponsor link on our main homepage (footer), and for the sponsor to talk about what they are promoting within reason (not spamming).

 

If there were any misunderstandings then I apologize on behalf of staff.

 

God bless,

William

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I understand the object lesson for children.
- It's also St. Patrick's metaphor to the pagans, using the shamrock, so it is well-established in the church for explaining to people unfamiliar with the concept (History).

 

 

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On 1/16/2018 at 12:11 PM, ChatterBox said:

I've never been sure why people find the concept of the trinity confusing. Our church used the trefoil (clover) as a metaphor for children: each of the three parts is a leaf in its own right, but the whole is one leaf, not three.

The analogy falls short as every other analogy. Some use a Tree: trunk, branches, and roots. Like the clover metaphor each part of the tree is not a tree, neither is each leaf a clover, each Person is God in the Trinity, however, there's only one God. Each Person is not a part but fully God.

 

I suppose all analogies fail because the Trinity is unique. There's nothing that compares!

 

God bless,

William
 

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A thought just occurred to me. I do wonder if when attempting to make an analogy of the Triune God if we are projecting Him in an image which would be forbidden for when one thinks of God wouldn't they also be thinking of the image.

 

Just a thought.

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46 minutes ago, Faber said:

A thought just occurred to me. I do wonder if when attempting to make an analogy of the Triune God if we are projecting Him in an image which would be forbidden for when one thinks of God wouldn't they also be thinking of the image.

 

Just a thought.

No, it's not just a thought, but I think it better to remain ignorant under certain conditions. It is better to say I dunno rather than to project the wrong mental image on God. We'd be conjuring up a false image of God whenever He enters our minds. It is impossible for our finite minds to grasp the Trinity as each Person is infinite. I think it is one of those things that we are not really at fault for not fully understanding as so much as understanding wrongly. Perhaps there is humility to be learned here. If we want to try to grasp as much of the mystery as possible we have the responsibility to proceed with great care.

 

God bless,

William

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17 minutes ago, William said:

I suppose all analogies fail because the Trinity is unique. There's nothing that compares!

 Yes. We use analogies with the aim of having one thing correspond to another, like having a car shod with new tyres, which is analogous to footwear even though shoes and tyres are different things, so the analogy only works for the attaching of the tyres and the footwear.

 

If God the Father is analogous to Water, God the Son analogous to Ice, and God the Holy Spirit analogous to Steam, we are only drawing a comparison to different molecular states of the same substance, but not truly describing the character and personalities of God.

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16 minutes ago, Placable37 said:

 

 Yes. We use analogies with the aim of having one thing correspond to another, like having a car shod with new tyres, which is analogous to footwear even though shoes and tyres are different things, so the analogy only works for the attaching of the tyres and the footwear.

 

If God the Father is analogous to Water, God the Son analogous to Ice, and God the Holy Spirit analogous to Steam, we are only drawing a comparison to different molecular states of the same substance, but not truly describing the character and personalities of God.

God doesn't have different molecular states. The same water cannot be ice or steam at the same time. Again the analogy fails and is condemned as Modalism. Water, ice, and steam destroy each other, water turns into vapor, and ice melts etc. Modalism suggests that in the OT God appeared in the mode of the Father, and then the Son in the NT, and the Holy Spirit in the Church age etc.

 

Personally, the best way I can explain "persons" in the Godhead is to suggest that each person is not individual enough to have independent or different wills, but each Person is independent or different enough to commune together.

 

I learned this description rather than an analogy from Louis Berkhof:

 

 

Berkhof is considered the standard in Systematic theology. The link above provides a free download of his book. Just beware, when teaching about the Trinity he uses the word "mode" which is not to be understood in the historical sense which Christianity condemned in the Nicene Creed.

 

God bless,

William

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, William said:

God doesn't have different molecular states. 

 

Personally, the best way I can explain "persons" in the Godhead is to suggest that each person is not individual enough to have independent or different wills, but each Person is independent or different enough to commune together.

God doesn't have different molecular states, except the ones He created 💎 (Not to be worshipped as if they are God)

 

Do the members of the Godhead "co-exist" as is often stated?  is that an acceptable word to use or is there a better one? 

Edited by Placable37

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In chemistry there is a concept called the triple point state ... a temperature and pressure where a substance (like water) exists as a solid, liquid and gas at the same time.  Constantly transforming from one to another but never completely existing in any one state.

 

It fails to really describe the 'persons' of the trinity, but helps visualize the three-in-one nature of a 'Godhead'.

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