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Why did God allow sin at all?

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Could God have created a world where nobody sinned? If so, why didn't He?

 

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Over my paygrade.

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Honestly, I believe if God did create a world where nobody could sin, He would be controlling every choice that everyone ever made in order to prevent them from choosing against His ways. In my opinion, love requires choice because love without choice is force. We might not be able to fully comprehend the existence of evil because it is the "mystery of iniquity." 2 Thes. 2:7. After all, how does sin rise up in an angel that was created perfect, and that was always in the presence of Almighty God (Ezek. 28:14,15)? God bless.

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For His glory. See Romans 9.

 

If there were no sin, there are two attributes of God which the universe would never know: His wrath and His mercy.

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thatbrian: does that mean that God's wrath brings Him glory? Romans 9:22,23 says that His glory is made known on the vessels of mercy (those who turn to Him for salvation) because He endures with much longsuffering, but He must show His wrath and power to those vessels of wrath that are fitted to destruction (those who refuse to turn to Him for salvation), otherwise sin would be perpetuated for all eternity. Indeed, the destruction in hell is reserved for Satan and his angels (Matt. 25:41), but sadly many have decided to follow the devil even though God has made a way of escape.

 

I agree that His mercy brings Him glory, but His wrath is something He does not desire to bring about. "Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live." Ezek. 18:31,32. "As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?" Ezek. 33:11. You can hear the cry of God as He pleads earnestly for all to turn from sin. God bless!

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thatbrian: does that mean that God's wrath brings Him glory? Romans 9:22,23 says that His glory is made known on the vessels of mercy (those who turn to Him for salvation) because He endures with much longsuffering, but He must show His wrath and power to those vessels of wrath that are fitted to destruction (those who refuse to turn to Him for salvation), otherwise sin would be perpetuated for all eternity. Indeed, the destruction in hell is reserved for Satan and his angels (Matt. 25:41), but sadly many have decided to follow the devil even though God has made a way of escape.

 

I agree that His mercy brings Him glory, but His wrath is something He does not desire to bring about. "Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live." Ezek. 18:31,32. "As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?" Ezek. 33:11. You can hear the cry of God as He pleads earnestly for all to turn from sin. God bless!

 

 

Let me turn that question around. Is God's wrath sinful? Is it inglorious? Is i shameful? Should it be hidden? Is it unjust?

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Let me turn that question around. Is God's wrath sinful? Is it inglorious? Is i shameful? Should it be hidden? Is it unjust?

 

I see your point. I guess for me, I don't believe God allowed sin for the purpose of displaying His wrath. He allows sin because it is the risk He chose to take when He created beings with the freedom to choose. And sin must be allowed to run its course so that all will know the destructive results of it, and when the time comes it will be eternally destroyed along with those who cling to it. Thank you for your feedback. Merry Christmas!

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whether God demonstrates justice or mercy, wrath or grace, the saints shall praise Him!

 

Yes. Any display of God's glory is praiseworthy. Crushing the wicked or showing compassion to a prostitute, He is perfect in His justice and mercy.

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At the very beginning -- God Did have a perfect environment for Adam and Eve. But He Also gave mankind freedom of choice. He didn't create us as puppets. Revelation -- the book of -- says that eventually we will have the New Jerusalem brought down from heaven for believers to dwell in. God, Himself will dwell with us (born-again believers).

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Love can not exist with out free choice, God wanted us to have the perfect world, so he created it for us with love and for love. Because he loves us. But that also requires us to have the choice.

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At the very beginning -- God Did have a perfect environment for Adam and Eve. But He Also gave mankind freedom of choice. He didn't create us as puppets. Revelation -- the book of -- says that eventually we will have the New Jerusalem brought down from heaven for believers to dwell in. God, Himself will dwell with us (born-again believers).

 

How did these perfectly created creatures act imperfectly?

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man is a free moral being. if there was no evil man would have been a robot. there would have been no sincere worship, love for God and commitment to serve and worship Him. but God decided that man can make choice and that is more honorable to God. God prefers personal decision in man's life. “And Joshua said unto all the people [of Israel], … choose you this day whom ye will serve; … but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord” (Josh. 24:2, 15). stay blessed

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How did these perfectly created creatures act imperfectly?

 

God created Adam and Eve with freedom of choice -- just like everyone has.

 

God gave them instructions to Not even Touch the fruit of one of the trees in the midst of the Garden. If they even touched it, they would die. But satan, the serpent set out to deceive Eve. 'Did God Really say that" Satan told them that God told her That because He knew that as soon as she did she would be as wise As God. Knowing good and evil. That appealed to Eve so -- instead of listening to God , she went ahead and not only touched it, but ate some as well. And then she shared some with Adam. And sure enough -- suddenly their eyes were open and they recognized themselves as being naked. And their first impulse was to cover themselves and hide from God.

 

So -- they acted imperfectly by not trusting / obey God -- they listened to satan instead.

 

 

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if there was no evil man would have been a robot.

 

Gee, I will be a robot in heaven. I'm good with that though for I love the programmer because He first loved (favored) me. :RpS_biggrin: I definitely need to be re-wired.

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Gee, I will be a robot in heaven. I'm good with that though for I love the programmer because He first loved (favored) me. :RpS_biggrin: I definitely need to be re-wired.

 

 

No one is a robot Here and no one will become one in heaven. The re-wiring will be in the form of a glorified body just like Jesus Christ's.

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I earnestly pray for those other genuine Followers of Jesus Christ, who suffer to day. Some who have no food. Many Christians in the World today may not have a bed to sleep on, a pillow to lay their head on. Some may not have eaten today,. In many parts of the World today women do not have a place to use the toilet in privacy. Today many people do not earn enough to send their boys to school say nothing about their daughters.

 

If any part of the suffering people in the World are Christians, surely knowing their suffering is only for now on Earth is only temporary, gives them hope of a wonderful life with Jesus Christ in heaven.

 

Has anyone here on this forum suffered, hunger, financial worries, family problems, Spiritual struggles, job problems, health problems? Don't you look to the day real life with Jesus in heaven? If you are totally free of problems on Earth you are to be pitied as you may not be looking to the time you are living with Jesus in Heaven.

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Have none of you ever read the Bible. God DID create a world without sin. This world had no sin and it was perfect. Read the New Testament it says, by ONE man (Adam) sin came into the world and death by sin. This world was perfect we wrecked it and Jesus had to come back and fix it. Surprised the first answers were not this...

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Have none of you ever read the Bible. God DID create a world without sin. This world had no sin and it was perfect. Read the New Testament it says, by ONE man (Adam) sin came into the world and death by sin. This world was perfect we wrecked it and Jesus had to come back and fix it. Surprised the first answers were not this...

 

You sound a little upset. Am I reading you right?

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God created Adam and Eve with freedom of choice -- just like everyone has.

 

God gave them instructions to Not even Touch the fruit of one of the trees in the midst of the Garden. If they even touched it, they would die. But satan, the serpent set out to deceive Eve. 'Did God Really say that" Satan told them that God told her That because He knew that as soon as she did she would be as wise As God. Knowing good and evil. That appealed to Eve so -- instead of listening to God , she went ahead and not only touched it, but ate some as well. And then she shared some with Adam. And sure enough -- suddenly their eyes were open and they recognized themselves as being naked. And their first impulse was to cover themselves and hide from God.

 

So -- they acted imperfectly by not trusting / obey God -- they listened to satan instead.

 

 

 

First, that doesn't answer my question.

 

Second, you don't have "freedom of choice", and neither do I.

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No one is a robot Here and no one will become one in heaven. The re-wiring will be in the form of a glorified body just like Jesus Christ's.

 

Didn't you say that God created Adam and Eve "perfect"???

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First, that doesn't answer my question.

 

Second, you don't have "freedom of choice", and neither do I.

 

You don’t have the freedom of choice? Ok.

 

1. You can close out of this app.

2. You can leave this app open.

3. You can respond to this after reading this.

4. You can NOT respond to this.

5. You can read this again.

6. You can NOT read it again.

 

Conclusion: you and me have freedom of choice.

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Didn't you say that God created Adam and Eve "perfect"???

 

Read Genesis what did God say after he created the Earth, animals, and Adam and Eve?

He said “it was all very good”. So God is saying it’s very good. That means it was perfect. When God says something is good, it’s good. When he says VERY good, that’s perfect.

 

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Yes, God Did create the perfect environment with animals and then Adam and then Eve. He created them in innocence -- no evil. AND with freedom of choice.

 

Well -- He saw that what He created was very good. You're saying that Very good is Perfect. God is the only perfect being. We're not.

 

You're 'freedom of choice' is probably referring to a person's salvation. Being one of the elect / ir-resistable grace.

 

At one point, you sound like you're 'mad' at the human race for messing up so that Jesus Christ had to fix 'our ' mess. If we hadn't messed up by sinning -- it goes back to God didn't create any robots. Freedom of choice. God knew before hand that Adam and Eve would 'mess up'. He provided the fix for our sinning -- Jesus Christ on the cross and bodily resurrection.

 

Now a person Could be concerned about being one of God's elect or not. When a person is concerned about his personal electiveness or not -- it's probably the Holy Spirit working in him. There's no reason for a person to 'wring their hands' with concern. Talk to God about it. Through Jesus Christ. He does hear us.

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You are mistaking autonomous or libertarian will with simply having a choice. Calvinist for example do not reject you having a choice. In actuality we place emphasis on your choice and emphasize the point that you're held accountable and responsible for your decisions. I want to give you a choice as an example: please flap your arms like a bird and reach the heavens. You can either choose to try or not to try. If you choose to try you'll never reach the heavens because you are grounded in your human nature. That is, you'll never reach the righteousness of heaven because you are grounded in your sin nature. You may choose to try or not but you'll be held accountable as to whether you succeed or not.

 

If you try (following all requirements by the Law) to demonstrate your own righteousness you'll fail and fall short of the glory of God. If you succeeded then what need of Christ Jesus? If you fail, you'll still be held accountable for your unrighteousness apart from Christ Jesus.

 

Nobody has the power to act contrary to their own nature.

 

So, while you have choice and may be under the delusion that you're free you're actually not. A man is either a slave to sin or to God. Your desires and affections either come from your sin nature or they come from a regenerate nature. Jesus said a man cannot see let alone enter the kingdom of heaven (regeneration John 3), and even more, he says one cannot even draw close to the object of faith (Jesus Christ) without being first drawn by the Father (Unconditional Election) John 6:44.

 

You may think yourself commendable or praise worthy for choosing Christ, but according to Scripture, long before you were just a twinkle in your father and mother's eye, God monergistically chose you first and then gave you the later desire to search Christ out. God puts the desire for Him in born again believers thereby drawing them to Jesus.

 

Do you know how ludicrous you sound suggesting that while you were spiritually dead in trespass that you "did" this or that? A dead man can do nothing for himself. All glory belongs to God alone. A lot of people depict salvation like a drowning person calling out for help to God and then they therefore place emphasis on what they are doing. In fact, you were already dead drowned and floating hopelessly at the bottom of the ocean and God raised you up and breathed life into you. You were dead dead dead having no ability of yourself to even call out for help, matter of fact you were an enemy of God and at enmity against Him. You would never, in your natural condition even desire to call out to Him.

 

God bless,

William

 

 

Then how does a person go from a head knowledge of God to heart acceptance and verbally responding in order to be saved. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. A dead man can't hear anything. Yes, a person is dead spiritually and when we pray to God and ask forgiveness He hears our prayers and answers them.

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William -- sorry you're frustrated with me. Sounds like you're trying to convert me to Calvinism.

 

I've been a born-again believer since junior high age.

 

I grew up in a Bible believing / teaching church. I knew all about salvation -- lots of Bible -- so -- yes -- I had a great head knowledge and it needed to be in my heart. Lots of people have a lot of Bible knowledge in their head. Knowledge of lots of facts. That does not save a person. It needs to reach their heart.

 

My doctrine is no more man-made than yours is.

 

Being a 5 pt Calvinist doesn't save anyone. Neither does being Arminian.

 

A denomination doesn't save anyone, either. Placing one's faith in Jesus Christ -- what He did for 'me' on the cross -- nothing more is needed. Jesus paid it all.

 

My salvation was settled all those years ago.

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