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Hakeem Alyazeedi

Did Jesus Ever Die?

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1 Corinthians 15:2 says, "Christ died for our sins." I don't see how there could be any doubt about that. Later in the chapter Paul shows that his resurrection is essential for our sins to be forgiven, but if he didn't die he couldn't have been resurrected. If he didn't die our sins have not been forgiven and we are doomed to spend eternity in Hell.

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You're talking about spiritual death or physical death? Even if you're talking of physical death, he certainly died based on circumstantial evidences.

1) Crucifixion was a horrible punishment and Roman's were professional in it.

2) Tacitus also talks about Jesus being crucified. Now, you may argue he's talking about Serapus Christus but it doesn't seem the case as its only mentioned in the bogus document Historia Auguste mostly like a joke.

3) Even if gospels were lying, one component of John namely water out of Jesus' test convinces me at least John got it right for they didn't knew what it meant but now we know as clear from Church fathers that they thought it to be a theological component.

4) the Corinthian creed dating to within 5 year of crucifixion mentions that Jesus died.

 

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That they said (in boast), "We have killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary the Messenger of Allah.; - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not (Sura 4:157).

 

 

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2016/08/shabir-ally-blasts-surah-4157.html

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Jesus died and was resurrected from the dead 3 days later.

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Hi all

 

I would like to debate and prove that Jesus did not die at all. So please let me know so we can agree next on the details.

I suppose that "if" you hold to the doctrine that Jesus was "fully God" and that "God cannot die" you might conclude that Jesus did not die.

 

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motirattan wrote that "1) Crucifixion was a horrible punishment and Roman's were professional in it." Yes I agree but there is one more important fact that you did not mention that a typical crucifixion lasts for more than a day whereas Jesus was only on the cross for less than half a day that is 9 hours before taken down.

 

Such short time on the cross caused Pilate to be surprised to hear that Jesus died and doubted the news of his alleged death as Pilate asked for confirmation if he died as per Mark 15:44. Even Mark 15:45 tells us only the fact the he confirmed, but Mark 15:45 does not tell us what the confirmation was.

 

What matters is that the greek word used to describe Jesus body was not PTOMA which means always dead body in Greek. Had Jesus been really dead, Ptoma should have been used.

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Mark 15:44-45

(44) Pilate wondered if He was dead by this time, and summoning the centurion, he questioned him as to whether He was already dead.

(45) And ascertaining this from the centurion, he granted the body to Joseph. (NASB)

 

1. It is obvious that Mark 15:45 tells us the confirmation was about what took place in 15:44.

2. The Greek word πτῶμα is used of the Lord Jesus in Mark 15:45.

καὶ γνοὺς ἀπὸ τοῦ κεντυρίωνος ἐδωρήσατο τὸ πτῶμα τῷ Ἰωσήφ

 

A. T. Robertson: 15:45 {Granted the corpse} (edwresato to ptwma). this official information was necessary before the burial. As a matter of fact Pilate was probably glad to turn the body over to Joseph else the body would go to the potter's field. this is the only instance when ptwma (_cadaver_, corpse) is applied to the body (swma) of Jesus, the term used in #Mt 27:59; Lu 23:53; Joh 19:40).

http://www.godrules.net/library/robert/robertmar15.htm

 

Finally, it wouldn't be necessary for the Lord Jesus to be on the cross for days before dying since a spear was stuck into His side that would have killed Him (John 19:34).

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The Man, Jesus Christ, Did die. And He was also buried and He also Did rise again bodily from the dead.

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Never happen. You can't make your case now or in your lifetime, Hakeem.

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Is it a theological argument or historical?

I suppose the OP was making a historical argument - a pretty silly one. But there is also no theological argument that he did not die. I was questioning how those who say that "Jesus was fully God" can reconcile themselves to the fact that he did die. I do not believe that they are able to, because their thesis involves a fundamental misappraisal of the word becoming flesh.

 

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I was questioning how those who say that "Jesus was fully God" can reconcile themselves to the fact that he did die. I do not believe that they are able to, because their thesis involves a fundamental misappraisal of the word becoming flesh.

 

BDAG (3rd Edition): 1 Pt 3:18f...evidently in ref. to the manner of Jesus' movement; pneuma is that part of Christ which, in contrast to sarx, did not pass away in death, but survived as an individual entity after death (pneuma, page 833).

 

This is why the Lord Jesus was able to assure one of the men that was crucified next to Him that he would be with Him "today" in Paradise (Luke 23:43).

A.T. Robertson: He promises him immediate and conscious fellowship after death with Christ in Paradise.

http://www.godrules.net/library/robert/robertluk23.htm

 

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Sure Jesus died.. He went to Hell and rose three days later, then He ascended into Heaven and sits at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty. It's all in the Nicene Creed. He'll come back physically one day, too. He'll raise the dead and the evil will be cast into the Lake of Fire and the righteous will shine like the sun. This link can explain the two natures of Jesus Christ better than I could: http://www.bookofconcord.org/sd-person.php

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motirattan wrote that "1) Crucifixion was a horrible punishment and Roman's were professional in it." Yes I agree but there is one more important fact that you did not mention that a typical crucifixion lasts for more than a day whereas Jesus was only on the cross for less than half a day that is 9 hours before taken down.

 

Such short time on the cross caused Pilate to be surprised to hear that Jesus died and doubted the news of his alleged death as Pilate asked for confirmation if he died as per Mark 15:44. Even Mark 15:45 tells us only the fact the he confirmed, but Mark 15:45 does not tell us what the confirmation was.

 

What matters is that the greek word used to describe Jesus body was not PTOMA which means always dead body in Greek. Had Jesus been really dead, Ptoma should have been used.

Read John's gospel, the water and blood from Jesus' chest and it's medical meaning. You neglected my fourth point. Romans were professional in killing also implies they would've ensured Jesus was dead if they were drawing him out of the cross earlier.

Read J Warner Wallace on it, mortis traid, and the water and blood.

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Jesus died has more probability than he didn't. We should adhere to most reasonable explanation than the infinite no. of possibilities.

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Remember the gospels were written decades after the event. They would've not used forever dead because they knew he was going to rise again in a later passage of their own work.

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BDAG (3rd Edition): 1 Pt 3:18f...evidently in ref. to the manner of Jesus' movement; pneuma is that part of Christ which, in contrast to sarx, did not pass away in death, but survived as an individual entity after death (pneuma, page 833).

This is why the Lord Jesus was able to assure one of the men that was crucified next to Him that he would be with Him "today" in Paradise (Luke 23:43).

A.T. Robertson: He promises him immediate and conscious fellowship after death with Christ in Paradise.

http://www.godrules.net/library/robert/robertluk23.htm

Of course Jesus' spirit survived death, and it is axiomatic that it does for all men. In that he was no different from anyone else. The theological problem is when it comes to making out anything special happened to Jesus' spirit apart from the complete freedom that it possessed to roam at will i.e. to enter paradise and communicate with those in sheol. "For God is not the God of the dead but the living &etc" Luke 20:38.

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His spirit was different in the sense that He was able to raise Himself bodily from the dead. This is something others can not (nor will ever be able to) do.

 

Albrecht Oepke: The idea of the self-resurrection of Jesus is first found in Johannine theology (Jn. 2:19, 21; 10:17, 18) (TDNT 2:335, egeirō).

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His spirit was different in the sense that He was able to raise Himself bodily from the dead. This is something others can not (nor will ever be able to) do.

 

Albrecht Oepke: The idea of the self-resurrection of Jesus is first found in Johannine theology (Jn. 2:19, 21; 10:17, 18) (TDNT 2:335, egeirō).

Act 13:30 It was God who raised him from the dead. Although Jesus had the authority to raise himself from the dead, the power he engaged was that of the Father, as per all of his miracles. To talk about Jesus spirit being "different" is to suggest that Jesus was not like unto other men, yet he was. Heb 2:17 "For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people."

 

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Act 13:30 It was God who raised him from the dead. Although Jesus had the authority to raise himself from the dead, the power he engaged was that of the Father, as per all of his miracles. To talk about Jesus spirit being "different" is to suggest that Jesus was not like unto other men, yet he was. Heb 2:17 "For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people."

 

Matthew 1:23 NASB “BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME [fn]IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD G2316 WITH US.”

John 1:1-2 NASB In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, G2316 and the Word was God. G2316 He was in the beginning with God. G2316

John 1:18 NASB No one has seen God G2316 at any time; the only begotten God G2316 who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Acts 13:30 NASB “But God G2316 raised Him from the dead;

 

All these verses use the exact same word. I do not see the word restrictd to the Father, but applies to the whole Godhead.

 

 

 

 

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Act 13:30 It was God who raised him from the dead.

 

God refers to:

1. The Father (Galatians 1:1)

2. The Son (John 2:19-21)

3. The Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11)

 

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Matthew 1:23 NASB “BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME [fn]IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD G2316 WITH US.”

John 1:1-2 NASB In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, G2316 and the Word was God. G2316 He was in the beginning with God. G2316

John 1:18 NASB No one has seen God G2316 at any time; the only begotten God G2316 who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Acts 13:30 NASB “But God G2316 raised Him from the dead;

 

All these verses use the exact same word. I do not see the word restrictd to the Father, but applies to the whole Godhead.

The term "godhead" in English does not infer an expanded definition of God, as it comes from the same Greek root word for God. The Father is the source of all divinity and the divinity of Christ too. Christ is the image of God, the messenger, and the son of God. So of course it is right to say that he denoted "God with us." Yet when the word became flesh it underwent a transformation into something "a little lower than the angels." Heb 2;6-8. Christ on earth was not seated at the right hand of the Father. He was a man, as the NT says over and again.

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