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Chickenlittle

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I am neither Protestant or Catholic. I am simply a Bible believer. My question is this: can anyone show me in the Bible where Jesus prayed to anyone other than His Father? Also, can anyone show me in the Bible where any of the disciples or apostles or Bible authors prayed to anyone other than Jesus or His Father?

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I don't believe there are any OT or NT examples of anything like that (praying to someone who is not a member of the Godhead), nor are there any instructions for us to do anything like that.

 

Why do you ask?

 

Thanks!

 

--David

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I was just wondering how Catholics justify praying to Mary. I see no such Biblical authority granted to citizens of heaven.

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This article sums it up I think:

Question: "Is prayer to saints / Mary biblical?"

 

Answer:
The issue of Catholics praying to saints is one that is full of confusion.
It is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church that Catholics do not pray TO saints or Mary, but rather that Catholics can ask saints or Mary to pray FOR them
. The official position of the Roman Catholic Church is that asking saints for their prayers is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for us.
However, the practice of many Catholics diverges from official Roman Catholic teaching. Many Catholics do in fact pray directly to saints and/or Mary, asking them for help – instead of asking the saints and/or Mary to intercede with God for help
.
**
Whatever the case, whether a saint or Mary is being prayed to, or asked to pray, neither practice has any biblical basis.

 

The Bible nowhere instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God. The Bible nowhere encourages, or even mentions, believers asking individuals in heaven for their prayers. Why, then, do many Catholics pray to Mary and/or the saints, or request their prayers? Catholics view Mary and the saints as "intercessors" before God. They believe that a saint, who is glorified in Heaven, has more "direct access" to God than we do. Therefore, if a saint delivers a prayer to God, it is more effective than us praying to God directly. This concept is blatantly unbiblical.
tells us that we, believers here on earth, can "approach the throne of grace with confidence."

 

declares, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." There is no one else that can mediate with God for us. If Jesus is the ONLY mediator, that indicates Mary and the saints cannot be mediators. They cannot mediate our prayer requests to God. Further, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father: "Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them" (
). With Jesus Himself interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us? Whom would God listen to more closely than His Son?
describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us. With the 2nd and 3rd members of the Trinity already interceding for us before the Father in heaven, what possible need could there be to have Mary or the saints interceding for us?

 

Catholics argue that praying to Mary and the saints is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for us. Let us examine that claim. (1) The Apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in
. Many Scriptures describe believers praying for one another (
;
;
;
). The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in heaven to pray for him. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in heaven praying for anyone on earth. (2) The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient. Even glorified in heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people? Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination—activities the Bible strongly condemns (
;
). In the one instance when a "saint" is spoken to, Samuel in
, Samuel is not exactly happy to be disturbed. It is clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for us. One has a strong biblical basis; the other has no biblical basis whatsoever.

 

God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (
). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in heaven has any greater access to God's throne than we do through prayer (
). ~GotQuestions.org

 

You might also like to check these links out: https://www.gotquestions.org/worship-saints-Mary.html // https://www.gotquestions.org/praying-to-angels.html

 

**Here's a famous Mary prayer to read as an example, the Prayer to Our Lady of Perpetual Help. I've heard many similar prayers to Mary like this. Does it sound to you like the prayer is directed to God (through Mary), or that the vast majority of the prayer is directed to Mary alone? IMHO, almost all of it seems to be directed to Mary alone. (I apologize ahead of time if you find what you are about to read as highly offensive as I do. Again, I posted it to show that the official position of the RCC, that was stated above, is hardly the practice :RpS_mad:).

Behold, O Mother of Perpetual Help, at thy feet a wretched sinner, who has recourse to thee and trusts in thee. O Mother of mercy, have pity on me; I hear all men call thee the refuge and
of sinners: be therefore my refuge and my hope. Help me for the love of
Christ: hold out thy hand to a fallen wretch, who commends himself to thee and dedicates himself to be thy servant forever. I praise and thank God, who of His great mercy hath given me this confidence in thee, a sure pledge of my eternal salvation. Alas, it is only too true that in the past I have fallen miserably, because I did not come to thee. I know that with thy help I shall conquer; I know that thou wilt help me, if I commend myself to thee; but I am fearful lest in the
I shall forget to call upon thee and so I shall be lost. This grace, then, do I ask of thee; for this I implore thee, as much as I can and know how to do; namely, that in the assaults of
I may ever run to thy protection and may say to thee: Mary, help me; Mother of Perpetual Help, permit me not to lose my God.

 

Hail

 

O Mother of Perpetual Help, grant me ever to be able to call upon thy powerful name, since thy name is the help of the living and the
of the dying. Ah,
most pure,
most sweet, grant that thy name from this day forth may be to me the very breath of life. Dear Lady, delay not to come to my assistance whenever I call upon thee; for in all the temptations that assail me, in all the necessities that befall me, I
never leave off calling upon thee, ever repeating: Mary, Mary. What comfort, what sweetness, what confidence, what tenderness fills my
at the sound of thy name, at the very thought of thee! I give thanks to our Lord, who for my sake hath given thee a name so sweet, so lovable, so mighty. But I am not content merely to speak thy name; I would utter it for very love of thee; it is my desire that love should ever remind me to name thee, Mother of Perpetual Help.

 

Hail

 

O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of every
that
grants us in our misery; it is for this
hat He hath made thee so powerful, so rich, so kind, that thou mightest assist us in our miseries. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners, if they but come unto thee; come once more to my assistance, for I commend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation; to thee I entrust my soul. Enroll me among thy most faithful servants; take me under thy protection and it is enough for me: yes, for if thou protect me, I shall fear nothing; not my sins, for thou wilt obtain for me their pardon and remission; not the
spirits, for thou art mightier than all the powers of hell; not even Jesus, my Judge, for He is appeased by a single
from thee. I fear only that through my own
I may forget to recommend myself to thee and so I shall be lost. My dear Lady, obtain for me the forgiveness of my sins, love for Jesus,
and the
to have recourse to thee at all times, O Mother of Perpetual Help.

 

Hail

 

You can read AND listen to the above here.

 

--David

Edited by David Lee
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OP:

The elevation of Mary or any other human being dead or alive is not biblical scriptural or doctrinally sound.

Don't bother concerning yourself with the official Roman position of anything.

Authority is found in the Bible and the Bible alone.

Your first sentence both interests and confuses me. I guess it's okay to get you started but eventually you're going to have to decide who you are.

 

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Churches will not get you to heaven. The word of God will. I am a bible believer. I do not trust traditions of men; neither did Jesus. Both Catholic and Protestant Churches have a bloody history. I am not saying that all churches are bad. But, I believe in Jesus + Nothing. I can always depend on his words. Churches can and are compromised. His words cannot be compromised.

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I am neither Protestant or Catholic. I am simply a Bible believer.

 

That would mean you're Protestant non denominational. You're not for Rome so you're Protestant, just not fully part of a Protestant denomination.

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Churches will not get you to heaven. The word of God will. I am a bible believer. I do not trust traditions of men; neither did Jesus. Both Catholic and Protestant Churches have a bloody history. I am not saying that all churches are bad. But, I believe in Jesus + Nothing. I can always depend on his words. Churches can and are compromised. His words cannot be compromised.

 

Theocracy was more to blame than Protestants themselves, that's how world governments are, even when their laws come the Bible. Rome is nothing more than theocracy, tyrants hiding behind a twisted form of Christianity.

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Theocracy was more to blame than Protestants themselves, that's how world governments are, even when their laws come the Bible. Rome is nothing more than theocracy, tyrants hiding behind a twisted form of Christianity.

 

That's very true. I think Martin Luther was the first to talk about the Left Hand Kingdom ( the secular, political realm) and the Right Hand Kingdom ( the Christian Church) as two separate entities, both established by God, but both meant to fulfil very different functions. The bishops arrogated political power that was not theirs to take. Luther said that the bishops had the same authority any pastor would have: the authority to preach the Word, administer the Sacraments and the authority to excommunicate blatant sinners and to receive the repentant back into the Church.

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Again, I have to agree. It has always been a puzzle to me that the most educated and learned scholars of their time rejected Jesus. No churches during that time, but organized religion such as the Sanhedrin, Scribes, etc. Even Paul of Tarsus rejected Jesus until meeting Him on the road to Damascus, Gamaliel, even in modern times, is considered the greatest Jewish teacher that ever lived. The book of Acts states that Paul studied at the feet of Gamaliel, who also seems to have missed the real Jesus.

In other words, these great scholars had been waiting for their Messiah, studying the Word and the Signs of his coming, for centuries, and when He appeared, they all missed it. I think this is a reason I do not trust organized religion or churches. When Jesus comes again, will our Scholars miss a second time?

There were 125 major prophecies predicting the first coming of Jesus, including His crucifixion, yet the "wise fools" got "fooled" and missed it. The truth of his first appearance is so real in the OT that even an uneducated person could not misidentify Jesus, but the wise did. Hal Lindsey wrote a book called "The Messiah", a small book that explores the subject. It is an astounding book that is a must read for Christians, because it explores this truth, and settles once and for all the Messiahship of Jesus, according to the Word.

The truth is always in His Word, but organized religion, synagogues, churches etc. have lost my trust. They seem to miss the truth too often.

 

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When Jesus comes again, will our Scholars miss a second time?

 

Nope, we won't need "scholars" when that happens because everyone will see it .. e.g. Matthew 24:27.

 

 

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What I meant by the question" when Jesus comes again, will the scholars miss it?" Is that the Catholic Church "spiritualizes" much of the Book of Revelation; so do many of the Protestant churches. (Rather than "miss it", I should have said "miss the truth"). I find this amazing, since the 125 prophecies all came true regarding His first appearance. Not one prophecy was "figurative" nor "metaphor", yet many scholars today still insist that the hundreds of prophecies regarding Christs "second" coming is only figurative.

Now I ask this question, "If the prophecies regarding Christ's first coming were real, and every prophecy came to pass, is there any reason to not accept that the hundreds of prophecies regarding his second coming would not also be real, and come to pass? Is God trying to trick us by hiding prophecies in mumbo jumbo metaphor?

Yes, we will all see his second coming, but I would not be shocked if some scholars will be there to still deny It. They may even believe it is a UFO.

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When Jesus comes again, it'll be obvious to the world and just like at His first Advent, at His Second Coming, the world will hate Him for it. The Devil's time is short. The World has finite time and soon there will be a New Creation, where sin and death will be no more.

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Again, I have to agree. It has always been a puzzle to me that the most educated and learned scholars of their time rejected Jesus. No churches during that time, but organized religion such as the Sanhedrin, Scribes, etc. Even Paul of Tarsus rejected Jesus until meeting Him on the road to Damascus, Gamaliel, even in modern times, is considered the greatest Jewish teacher that ever lived. The book of Acts states that Paul studied at the feet of Gamaliel, who also seems to have missed the real Jesus.

In other words, these great scholars had been waiting for their Messiah, studying the Word and the Signs of his coming, for centuries, and when He appeared, they all missed it. I think this is a reason I do not trust organized religion or churches. When Jesus comes again, will our Scholars miss a second time?

There were 125 major prophecies predicting the first coming of Jesus, including His crucifixion, yet the "wise fools" got "fooled" and missed it. The truth of his first appearance is so real in the OT that even an uneducated person could not misidentify Jesus, but the wise did. Hal Lindsey wrote a book called "The Messiah", a small book that explores the subject. It is an astounding book that is a must read for Christians, because it explores this truth, and settles once and for all the Messiahship of Jesus, according to the Word.

The truth is always in His Word, but organized religion, synagogues, churches etc. have lost my trust. They seem to miss the truth too often.

Faith comes through hearing. But for Paul there was a more abrupt revalalation to the truth of Christ.

By worldly standards God's truth is foolishness, God's truth is spiritually discerned and the world is spiritually blind. Like when Nicodemus couldn't understand how one could be born again, many Jews had there own idea of what the Messiah would be like while those that where awake in the spirit by God saw Christ for who he really is.

 

Matt. 16:15-17 "But what about you?" He asked. "Who do you say I am? "

Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not taught to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

John 9:35-41 and 2 Cor. 4:3-4 are other good examples.

 

We also have to consider election or lack of. It's the sheep, the elect that will come to Christ the nonelect are blind and incapable of receiving truth.

 

​​​​​​​Now by all means you should aboslutly question every church and test it with Scripture, but don't dismiss every denomination as false.

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What I meant by the question" when Jesus comes again, will the scholars miss it?" Is that the Catholic Church "spiritualizes" much of the Book of Revelation; so do many of the Protestant churches. (Rather than "miss it", I should have said "miss the truth"). I find this amazing, since the 125 prophecies all came true regarding His first appearance. Not one prophecy was "figurative" nor "metaphor", yet many scholars today still insist that the hundreds of prophecies regarding Christs "second" coming is only figurative.

Now I ask this question, "If the prophecies regarding Christ's first coming were real, and every prophecy came to pass, is there any reason to not accept that the hundreds of prophecies regarding his second coming would not also be real, and come to pass? Is God trying to trick us by hiding prophecies in mumbo jumbo metaphor?

Yes, we will all see his second coming, but I would not be shocked if some scholars will be there to still deny It. They may even believe it is a UFO.

 

When Christ returns their time of denial is over, all they will have left is guilt and punishment.

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