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Guppy

Nehemiah's wall and The 144000

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I believe that the 144000 we see in Revelation 7 and 14 are a picture of the Church. I believe I can prove this scripturally

I believe I can also prove that the number 144000 is not a specific one, but a symbolic one. A study of Nehemiah and his wall brought me to this conclusion.

 

First let me start with the 144000

every attribute given to them is also given to Christians.

1st we are told these 12000 men from the 12 tribes of Judah are Christians for they follow the Lamb wherever he goes

 

Rev 14:4

These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.

 

These men are Christians, they are brothers in Christ, they are believers. Wouldn't it be wrong to call them Jews

 

 

Gal 3:28

There is neither Jew nor gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male or female, for you are all one in Christ

 

 

Romans 9:6 It is not as though Gods word has failed. for not all are descended from Israel are Israel

 

 

Romans 9:7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned

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Whoever the 144000 are, they are believers in Christ, which makes them Christians. The bible tells us that where two or more believers gather together, there too shall I be. Mathew 18:20.

 

When we get together, any number ,we call it church. What then do we call the 144000 standing with Christ on the mount of Olives? The Church or Jews

 

 

The 144000 are sealed

 

Rev 7:3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.

Rev 7:4

 

Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

 

The Church is sealed

 

 

EPH 4:30

 

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

 

2 Cor 1:22

 

set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

 

 

The 144000 are standing with Christ when he returns

The 144000 have the Fathers name written on there forehead

 

Rev 14:1

 

Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

 

We know that the Church is with Christ when he returns

 

1 Thessalonians 4:17

 

After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

 

 

The Church has Gods name written on their forehead

 

Rev 22:4

They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. [TABLE=class: x_table_bible, border: 0, cellpadding: 0, cellspacing: 0, width: 0]

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The 144000 sing a new song and are redeemed

 

Rev 14:3

 

And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

 

The Church

 

Gal 3:14

He
redeemed
us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

 

 

Gal 3:13

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”

 

The song being sung, that no one knows, is the song of redemption. Its the song that only Christians know, because only born again believers know what it means to be redeemed

 

The 144000 are called virgins and firstfruits

 

Rev 14:4

 

These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.

 

 

The Church is called virgins and firstfruits and follow the lamb

 

 

2 Cor 11:2

 

I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.

 

2th 2:13

 

But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as first fruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

 

The 14400 are called blameless

 

Rev 14:5

 

No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

 

 

The church is found blameless

 

! Corinthians 1:8

 

He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Eph 5:27

and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

 

Next I will try and prove the numbers are symbolic

 

In the study of Nehemiah I wondered the importance of this wall and why it is the main topic in Nehemiah and also in the book of Ezra. There are some interesting facts about the wall. I hope I remember them correctly.

The wall was believed to be 2 and one half miles long. 40 feet high and 8 feet wide, on average. This wall was accomplished in 52 days. I question myself why was this wall so important for us to know, that it was written in two books of the bible.

 

Then that thought brought me to question why are there walls in the new Jerusalem. Nehemiah's wall was for protection, why does the city of God have walls and the doors are always open?

 

Nehemiah wall was built in 52 days

The cross to Pentecost is 52 days .

Passover to Pentecost is 52 days

 

The church was born 52 days after the cross. Nehemiah's wall was completed in 52 days. What's the connection?

 

The New Jerusalem

 

In chapter 21 in Revelation we see 144 over and over

We see 12 gates with the names of the twelve tribes that's 144 names

We see 12 foundations with the names of the twelve apostles on them 12x12

The foundation is 144 cubits thick.

 

There are 12 foundations on each side of the city each foundation measures 12000 furlongs

That's 144000 in total length. That's on the west side 144000 and on the east side 144000 and on the north and south 144000 in total length. The City of New Jerusalem is a cube it has 12 edges each edge 12000 furlongs. 12 x 12000= 144000 in total length. Each wall ceiling and floor is 144,000,000 square furlongs

 

My conclusion is that the 144000 is symbolic for the church and the walls that surround The City of New Jerusalem. They are also symbolic for the Church. The birth of the Church took 52 days from the cross. Nehemiah's wall took 52 days to build.

 

We are the walls that surround the throne of God and the disciples are our foundation

 

Rev 21:2 I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband.

 

The church is also called his bride

 

Nehemiah's wall brought me to the conclusion, that the Walls that surround the city of New Jerusalem and the 144000 are symbolic for the Church. At Pentecost God started building his city brick by brick. God is building the walls

 

In Nehemiah we see that most of the wall around the city was already up, Nehemiah builds the new section or a better way to say it, Is. He rebuilt the old wall, so we have a picture of Our old self in ruins and our new man reborn . The old wall in ruins and the new wall. We have a spiritual picture of the Church, old testament saints and New testament saints.

 

Nehemiah's wall brought me to a spiritual picture of the wall around the new Jerusalem. WE are the wall and we surround Gods throne

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My conclusion is that the 144000 is symbolic for the church and the walls that surround The City of New Jerusalem. They are also symbolic for the Church.

 

Hey Guppy,

 

Just curious, do you identify as an Amillennialist?

 

Thought you may like this for further reading: https://www.christforums.org/forum/b...-in-revelation

 

God bless,

William

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Honestly William

I have never looked at a definition for anyone, You have maybe 20 subject forums and I don't have a clue what they are.

I haven't a clue what amillennialism means.]

I don't classify myself or anyone else.

 

Lets just talk about the scriptures,. we are brothers in Christ, what else do we need to know

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These men are Christians, they are brothers in Christ, they are believers. Wouldn't it be wrong to call them Jews

They are brothers in Christ and believers but the fact that they are described as belonging to the twelve tribes shows they are also Jews. To me the simplest interpretation is that these events take place after the rapture of the church, when God will resume working through the nation of Israel.

 

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. (Romans 11:25)

 

At the fullness of the Gentiles God will remove the church from the world and will remove the hardening that Israel experiences right now.

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They are brothers in Christ and believers but the fact that they are described as belonging to the twelve tribes shows they are also Jews. To me the simplest interpretation is that these events take place after the rapture of the church, when God will resume working through the nation of Israel.

 

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. (Romans 11:25)

 

At the fullness of the Gentiles God will remove the church from the world and will remove the hardening that Israel experiences right now.

 

If the fullness of the gentiles happened at the rapture, then all gentiles must be doomed after the rapture?

 

its more likely that the fullest of the gentiles happen at the second coming, That's when the jews eyes wil be opened.

what do you think the church will do, when they see Christ return? worship, sing, rejoice. what are we told the Jews will do, mourn like for an only son. Zachariah 12.10. The Jews eyes are opened at the second coming. I believe that's why they are mourning and not worshiping.

 

If the 144000 are Christian believers, why weren't they raptures?

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If the fullness of the gentiles happened at the rapture, then all gentiles must be doomed after the rapture?

 

its more likely that the fullest of the gentiles happen at the second coming, That's when the jews eyes wil be opened.

what do you think the church will do, when they see Christ return? worship, sing, rejoice. what are we told the Jews will do, mourn like for an only son. Zachariah 12.10. The Jews eyes are opened at the second coming. I believe that's why they are mourning and not worshiping.

 

If the 144000 are Christian believers, why weren't they raptures?

 

Both gentiles and Jews can be saved after the rapture as they were before Pentecost. The difference is that they are not part of the church, the bride of Christ. The Bible doesn't describe the origin of the 144,000 but obviously they will be saved after the rapture.

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I believe that the 144000 we see in Revelation 7 and 14 are a picture of the Church. I believe I can prove this scripturally

I believe I can also prove that the number 144000 is not a specific one, but a symbolic one. A study of Nehemiah and his wall brought me to this conclusion.

 

We have some very different views on this subject Guppy which I would be thrilled to engage in a serious discussion of, IF, we both agree to answer all questions that we may be asked. If you can answer all questions that I may ask and using scripture, just as it is written, in support then I will concede that your views are correct. By the same measure, if you ask me questions that I cannot answer, again using scripture just as it is written, then I will agree that my views are incorrect. So what say you, is that a discussion that you would be interested in?

 

 

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If the fullness of the gentiles happened at the rapture, then all gentiles must be doomed after the rapture?

 

 

I do not believe that scripture suggests that the "fullness of the gentiles" happens at the "rapture", it is before and is number dependant not time.

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We have some very different views on this subject Guppy which I would be thrilled to engage in a serious discussion of, IF, we both agree to answer all questions that we may be asked. If you can answer all questions that I may ask and using scripture, just as it is written, in support then I will concede that your views are correct. By the same measure, if you ask me questions that I cannot answer, again using scripture just as it is written, then I will agree that my views are incorrect. So what say you, is that a discussion that you would be interested in?

 

I would love to do that with you, but I am away until Wednesday . I would much rather do it from my pc

 

Since we cannot see eye to eye on that subject, because of the rapture

 

I would rather start there. "The rapture" if You can answer all of my questions that I may ask you with scriptural answers, just as it is written, then I would conclude my view is incorrect

 

would that be alright with you? If we started with the rapture

 

 

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would that be alright with you? If we started with the rapture

 

Absolutely, I am looking forward to a productive discussion and will answer every question that you may ask and will address each point that you make. Begin whenever it is convenient for you.

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Zachariah 12.10. The Jews eyes are opened at the second coming. I believe that's why they are mourning and not worshiping.

 

I disagree with that assertion, first, I would like to see where Zech 12:10 says anything about opening anyone's eyes and second, I would like to see the following verses in Ezekiel explained which is before the second coming of Christ.

 

Ezekiel 36:22–29 (NASB95)

 

22“Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went.

 

23I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord,” declares the Lord God, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight.

 

24For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.

 

25Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.

 

26Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

 

27I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

 

28You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.

 

29Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you.

 

No, these verses say nothing about "opening" any eyes either but do you think it may be a hint for the Jewish people especially considering what happens in chapters 37-39.

 

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No, these verses say nothing about "opening" any eyes either but do you think it may be a hint for the Jewish people especially considering what happens in chapters 37-39.

 

Just curious, what do you think "opening eyes" means?

 

God bless,

William

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Just curious, what do you think "opening eyes" means?

 

 

Relative to what verse William? "opening eyes" may have a number of connotations.

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Maybe the names of the 12 tribes where use in this order, with Benjamin, because of the meanings of their names. I found this online [TABLE=align: center, cellpadding: 0, cellspacing: 0]

[TR]

[TD=width: 25]1.[/TD]

[TD=width: 115]Judah means[/TD]

[TD=width: 160]“I will praise the Lord”[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=width: 25]2.[/TD]

[TD=width: 115]Ruben means[/TD]

[TD=width: 160]“He has looked on me”[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=width: 25]3.[/TD]

[TD=width: 115]Gad means[/TD]

[TD=width: 160]“Given good fortune”[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=width: 25]4.[/TD]

[TD=width: 115]Asher means[/TD]

[TD=width: 160]“Happy am I”[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=width: 25]5.[/TD]

[TD=width: 115]Naphtali means[/TD]

[TD=width: 160]“My wrestling”[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=width: 25]6.[/TD]

[TD=width: 115]Manasseh means[/TD]

[TD=width: 160]“Making me to forget”[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=width: 25]7.[/TD]

[TD=width: 115]Simeon means[/TD]

[TD=width: 160]“God hears me”[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=width: 25]8.[/TD]

[TD=width: 115]Levi means[/TD]

[TD=width: 160]“Joined to me”[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=width: 25]9.[/TD]

[TD=width: 115]Issachar means[/TD]

[TD=width: 160]“Purchased Me”[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=width: 25]10.[/TD]

[TD=width: 115]Zebulun means[/TD]

[TD=width: 160]“Dwelling”[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=width: 25]11.[/TD]

[TD=width: 115]Joseph means[/TD]

[TD=width: 160]“Will add to me”[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=width: 25]12.[/TD]

[TD=width: 115]Benjamin means[/TD]

[TD=width: 160]“Son of His right hand”[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

 

Now here is the amazing part. Notice what happens when you line up these meanings of the names according to the way they appear as listed in Revelation. It forms a very remarkable statement declaring how God saves the church as His bride!

 

“I will praise the Lord for he has looked on me and granted good fortune. I am happy because my wrestling, God is making me to forget. God hears me and is joined to me. He has purchased me a dwelling and will add to me, the Son of His right hand.” (As in Scripture, the words in italics are supplied for flow of thought.)

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