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EntropiaAddict

The Essential Doctrine of Christianity

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William brought up a good point in another thread, but I felt my question back was de-railing the original thread so decided to come over here and create a new one...

 

e

 

Just emphasizing the fact that Bobby made the distinction between essential and non essential doctrine. Essential doctrine does have a direct impact upon whether we worship rightly or worship a god made in our own image. Such a projection (the wrong one) would be idolatry and even blasphemy. Some would even go so far as to say the consequences are dire that it is better to not dive too deeply in the Mysteries of the Lord, for one may be found guilty even if contained within only their thought life.

 

God bless,

William

 

I agree that this is an important distinction William. I am wondering if there is still debate on what is Essential Doctrine though? I was raised in a Brethren church, and was taught that the essential doctrine consists of:

1) Belief that there is only one God

2) The Deity of Christ (which includes the resurrection, that Jesus was the son of God, and belief in the Trinity)

3) Salvation by Grace

4) The Gospel is the word of God.

 

I would be quite interested to hear if there are others out there that people consider essential doctrine and why. I am definitely not saying these are the only 4 that exist, just that these are the 4 I was raised to believe were the only ones. Look forward to hearing some other feelings on the issue.

 

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William brought up a good point in another thread, but I felt my question back was de-railing the original thread so decided to come over here and create a new one...

 

e

 

I agree that this is an important distinction William. I am wondering if there is still debate on what is Essential Doctrine though? I was raised in a Brethren church, and was taught that the essential doctrine consists of:

1) Belief that there is only one God

2) The Deity of Christ (which includes the resurrection, that Jesus was the son of God, and belief in the Trinity)

3) Salvation by Grace

4) The Gospel is the word of God.

 

I would be quite interested to hear if there are others out there that people consider essential doctrine and why. I am definitely not saying these are the only 4 that exist, just that these are the 4 I was raised to believe were the only ones. Look forward to hearing some other feelings on the issue.

 

 

All of what you shared falls under the umbrella of Soteriological study. Soteriology is essential, and all denominations (30,000+) fall within only a handful of camps: Arianism, Pelgianism, Arminianism, Calvinism, etc. Basically, all denominations agree on central truths and points essential to Salvation as outlined in the Ecumenical Creeds. This is why they are Christian Denominations, and not a Sect or Cult. You can find them here with respect to the Nicene Creed, Apostles Creed, etc: https://www.christforums.org/articles/3424-our-belief

 

God bless,

William

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William brought up a good point in another thread, but I felt my question back was de-railing the original thread so decided to come over here and create a new one...

 

e

 

I agree that this is an important distinction William. I am wondering if there is still debate on what is Essential Doctrine though? I was raised in a Brethren church, and was taught that the essential doctrine consists of:

1) Belief that there is only one God

2) The Deity of Christ (which includes the resurrection, that Jesus was the son of God, and belief in the Trinity)

3) Salvation by Grace

4) The Gospel is the word of God.

 

I would be quite interested to hear if there are others out there that people consider essential doctrine and why. I am definitely not saying these are the only 4 that exist, just that these are the 4 I was raised to believe were the only ones. Look forward to hearing some other feelings on the issue.

 

WHERE did you learn? At home, yes. But in church, properly?

 

Now that's why Karl Bath said, when we have finished to confess God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, we CANNOT stop there but MUST go on to confess the WORK of the Holy Spirit which is the Church!.

 

Therefore the doctrine of the Church is essential too.

 

Now this was where I dared to go further, and said, the Church CANNOT stop after having confessed the Church as the Work of God's Holy Spirit, but MUST go on to confess ... the DAY OF WORSHIP of the Lord Jesus Christ by the Body of his Own, the Church!

 

Therefore the doctrine of the Sabbath of God's Worship Rest for the People of God, is essential too.

 

So thought Paul, "Let not therefore yourselves be judged by anyone with regard to eating and drinking of Sabbaths' Feast : OF CHRIST THE SUBSTANCE / ESSENCE ... and Nourishment ministered".

 

And so thought the apostles and the Church, Acts 13:44; 15:21,25,30,31; 16:4,5; 16:13; 17:2; 19:8.

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Therefore the doctrine of the Sabbath of God's Worship Rest for the People of God, is essential too.

 

So thought Paul, "Let not therefore yourselves be judged by anyone with regard to eating and drinking of Sabbaths' Feast : OF CHRIST THE SUBSTANCE / ESSENCE ... and Nourishment ministered".

I'm a little fuzzy on what you are trying to say?

 

Is the specific day of Church Service ESSENTIAL? (so attending a Saturday Service at a large Church because one has to work on Sundays, or being a nurse working weekends and attending only the Wednesday Service is a sin? Damnable? What? Essential for what? Or are you just saying "Do not forsake the assembling of yourselves together"?

 

 

I thought Paul's point in Colossians 2:16 was freedom from an ESSENTIAL specific Sabbath (like Holy Days of Obligation, or the view of 7th Day Adventists).

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I'm a little fuzzy on what you are trying to say?

 

Is the specific day of Church Service ESSENTIAL? (so attending a Saturday Service at a large Church because one has to work on Sundays, or being a nurse working weekends and attending only the Wednesday Service is a sin? Damnable? What? Essential for what? Or are you just saying "Do not forsake the assembling of yourselves together"?

 

 

I thought Paul's point in Colossians 2:16 was freedom from an ESSENTIAL specific Sabbath (like Holy Days of Obligation, or the view of 7th Day Adventists).

 

I am just saying "Do not forsake the assembling of yourselves together". "The assembling of yourselves together"! That, this, clearly is the out of the usual!

 

And it is in exactly Colossians 2 where Paul is describing and defining this out of the ordinary "assembling together" of "The Body of Christ's Own" the Christian Church, "Therefore--since Christ triumphed-- do not you, let yourselves be condemned (or) judged in (your) eating and drinking of Feast of SABBATHS OF CHRIST THE SUBSTANCE."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I'm a little fuzzy on what you are trying to say?

 

Is the specific day of Church Service ESSENTIAL? (so attending a Saturday Service at a large Church because one has to work on Sundays, or being a nurse working weekends and attending only the Wednesday Service is a sin? Damnable? What? Essential for what? Or are you just saying "Do not forsake the assembling of yourselves together"?

 

 

I thought Paul's point in Colossians 2:16 was freedom from an ESSENTIAL specific Sabbath (like Holy Days of Obligation, or the view of 7th Day Adventists).

 

 

<<Is the specific day of Church Service ESSENTIAL?>>

Is the CHURCH SERVICE, essential?

 

<<Essential for what?>>

<<The specific day of Church Service>> is <essential> for “not forsaking the assembling of yourself together”! For what else!?

You <thought> a little wrong though, <<Paul's point>> in Colossians 2:16 is not <<freedom from>>, but the essential freedom of, obligation in both attending Christian Assembling-Together, and, <<the specific day of Church Service>> which in the Scriptures throughout, has always and exclusively been, “the day The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD – your, God.”

 

 

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You <thought> a little wrong though, <<Paul's point>> in Colossians 2:16 is not <<freedom from>>, but the essential freedom of, obligation in both attending Christian Assembling-Together, and, <<the specific day of Church Service>> which in the Scriptures throughout, has always and exclusively been, “the day The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD – your, God.”

 

Romans 14:1-9

1 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. [NIV]

 

While I do not consider SUNDAY Service to be ESSENTIAL, I do understand the symbolism and precedence for it ...

 

Mark 16:9 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons.

John 20:1 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.

John 20:19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”

Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.

1 Corinthians 16:2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.

Revelation 1:10 On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,

 

Clearly Scripture teaches that Jesus rose on the first day of the week (Sunday), so I can see why a Christian might want to praise God on that particular day. Furthermore, I really think that Romans 14:5 and Colossians 2:16 grant us the freedom to do so. [However, I welcome an exegesis explaining why I have misunderstood the meaning of these scriptures ... infallible is never a word that I would use to describe myself.]

 

Acts 20:7 seems to suggest that the sacrament of the Lords Supper may have been administered on the first day (although 'break bread' can also just mean share a meal, so this is only suggestive and not irrefutable proof). However, 1 Corinthians 16:2 does clearly imply that it was the habit of the Church at Corinth (and the other churches in the area that the letter was circulated to) to meet regularly on the first day of the week (which made this a convenient time to gather the money), and by the time John wrote Revelation 1:10, the first day of the week appears to have been commonly called the Lord's Day (for obvious reasons). Surely you cannot object to people who love Jesus assembling on the day of his resurrection (Sunday) to praise and worship God?

 

I see nothing in Colossians 2:16 or Romans 14:5 that would suggest that God has a problem with that either.

 

God Bless,

Arthur

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Romans 14:1-9

1 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. [NIV]

 

While I do not consider SUNDAY Service to be ESSENTIAL, I do understand the symbolism and precedence for it ...

 

Mark 16:9 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons.

John 20:1 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.

John 20:19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”

Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.

1 Corinthians 16:2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.

Revelation 1:10 On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,

 

Clearly Scripture teaches that Jesus rose on the first day of the week (Sunday), so I can see why a Christian might want to praise God on that particular day. Furthermore, I really think that Romans 14:5 and Colossians 2:16 grant us the freedom to do so. [However, I welcome an exegesis explaining why I have misunderstood the meaning of these scriptures ... infallible is never a word that I would use to describe myself.]

 

Acts 20:7 seems to suggest that the sacrament of the Lords Supper may have been administered on the first day (although 'break bread' can also just mean share a meal, so this is only suggestive and not irrefutable proof). However, 1 Corinthians 16:2 does clearly imply that it was the habit of the Church at Corinth (and the other churches in the area that the letter was circulated to) to meet regularly on the first day of the week (which made this a convenient time to gather the money), and by the time John wrote Revelation 1:10, the first day of the week appears to have been commonly called the Lord's Day (for obvious reasons). Surely you cannot object to people who love Jesus assembling on the day of his resurrection (Sunday) to praise and worship God?

 

I see nothing in Colossians 2:16 or Romans 14:5 that would suggest that God has a problem with that either.

 

God Bless,

Arthur

 

I think you clearly outlined the Scripture that is to be followed by the Regulative Principle. You provided Scripture that says which day we ought to worship, break bread, and collect our offerings.

 

God bless,

William

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While I do not consider SUNDAY Service to be ESSENTIAL, I do understand the symbolism and precedence for it ...

 

Mark 16:9 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons.

John 20:1 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.

John 20:19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”

Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.

1 Corinthians 16:2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.

Revelation 1:10 On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,

 

 

Re:

<<Mark 16:9 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene>>

 

<<When Jesus rose>> is FALSE.

"Risen / Resurrected, Jesus on the first day of the week, early, appeared first to Mary Magdalene" is TRUE.

 

Re:

<> is FALSE.

 

“Still being early of dark / dusk / after sunset evening on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene comes (allowing Singular only) to the tomb and sees (allowing Singular only) the stone removed, lying (‘ehrmenon’ Perfect) from the entrance” is TRUE

 

Re:

<>

 

John did not write ‘being on the First Day’, but, “Being then evening”- ‘ousehs oun opsias’.

 

“Being then evening the day relating to (‘ousehs oun opsias tehi hehmerai’ Dative of Relation or Reference to)

that (‘ekeinehi’ Relative Pronoun) day the First (Day) of the week.” (‘ousehs oun opsias tehi hehmerai ekeinehi tehi Miai (Hehmerai) sabbatohn’)

 

Therefore, John 20:19,

“Being then evening with reference to / relating that day the First Day of the week.” Which only is to say, “Having been evening after that First Day of the week… Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”

 

Re: Acts 20:7 … 1 Corinthians 16:2 … Revelation 1:10 …

Answered before.

 

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Clearly Scripture teaches that Jesus rose on the first day of the week (Sunday), so I can see why a Christian might want to praise God on that particular day. Furthermore, I really think that Romans 14:5 and Colossians 2:16 grant us the freedom to do so. [However, I welcome an exegesis explaining why I have misunderstood the meaning of these scriptures ... infallible is never a word that I would use to describe myself.]

 

Clearly Scripture nowhere, <>.

 

And yes, one <> that Christ rose from the dead on. As long as it isn’t “on the Sabbath” as written, “While late on the Sabbath in the very mid-afternoon declining towards the First Day of the week… the angel of the Lord… cast the stone from the grave…” AND JESUS ROSE “First Sheaf Waved Before the LORD”. As long as it isn’t “on the Sabbath” as written because then you’re a fanatical legalist, whether <> or not.

 

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Corinthians 16:2 does clearly imply that it was the habit of the Church at Corinth (and the other churches in the area that the letter was circulated to) to meet regularly on the first day of the week

 

Again that ever present <> but no word or , or, or ; OR words, "on the first day of the week" in 1Corinthians 16:2?!

 

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Clearly Scripture nowhere, <>.

Now when he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons.

Mark 16:9

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Now when he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons.

Mark 16:9

 

Is the action implied or the meaning of “risen”, the same as the action or the meaning of “appeared”? No; it is not. Therefore the moment of the relative time is DIFFERENT, and the moment in time of the action to have raised up and be risen is PAST and FINISHED – is the ‘Vollendung’ – or state in which he in time-relation, the FOLLOWING “early morning on the First Day of the week, appeared”.

 

Blass Debrunner, § 339, “Die Partizipia hatten ursprünglich keine temporale Funktion, sondern bezeichneten nur die Aktionsart; das zeitliche Verhältnis zum Verbum finitum ergab sich aus dem Zusammenhang. Da nun aber ein die Vollendung ausdrückendes Partiz. oft vor dem Vb. finitum stand und dabei das Verhältnis gewohnheitsmäβig häufig das war, daβ die Vollendung der Handlung des Partiz. vor der Handlung des Vb. finitum lag, verband sich mit dem Partiz. Aor. bis zu einem gewissen Grad die Bedeutung der relativen Vergangenheit… 1. Besonders fehlt dem Partiz. Aor. das Moment der relativen Zeit, wenn seine Handlung mit der des aorischen Vb. finitum identisch ist…”

 

 

It is Jesus "WAS risen" = "was raised WHEN He APPEARED" in Mark 16:9.

LONG BEFORE "~On the first day of the week, very early in the morning~" in the east, in fact, "Late on the Sabbath being in the very daylight of the Sabbath in the middle of afternoon getting late towards the beginning of the First Day of the week" in the west, sunset, Jesus, 15 hours ago, had already raised and "was risen" before "He appeared, first, to Mary Magdalene, early on the First Day of the week."

 

He was raised before He appeared, and He "was risen when He appeared... first".

 

Note the duplicity -- which is impossible in the Greek -- in the English, seen as

1a) the indicative passive Past Tense, "He was raised when He appeared"; or,

1b) "was raised" seen as passive adverbial Participle, "He was raised when He appeared"; or, instead of "was raised",

2) in the KJV, the active adverbial Participle, "was risen".

Edited by Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Q~God wants full custody of his children, not just visits on Sunday.~Q

 

God wants full custody of his children, His Way, "Six days shalt thou labour and do all thy work... but the day The Seventh Day is Sabbath of the LORD thy GOD."

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Now when he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons.

Mark 16:9

 

The problem is not with "early on the first day of the week, he appeared"; it is with the English Verb, "rose".

It should be a Participle FOR THE Participle of the Greek, e.g., in old English (like that of the KJV), "...Jesus WAS RISEN when He early on the first day of the week, appeared..." When Jesus appeared, He "was risen" or "resurrected".

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The problem is not with "early on the first day of the week, he appeared"; it is with the English Verb, "rose".

It should be a Participle FOR THE Participle of the Greek, e.g., in old English (like that of the KJV), "...Jesus WAS RISEN when He early on the first day of the week, appeared..." When Jesus appeared, He "was risen" or "resurrected".

Does this not create even more problems for his claim to be three days in the grave ... so now he was crucified on Wednesday and was raised on Saturday and just took a Sabbath rest before getting back to the Apostles on Sunday?

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Matthew 28:1-10 [NKJV]

Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it. His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men.

But the angel answered and said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly and tell His disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold, I have told you.”

So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring His disciples word.

And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Rejoice!” So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him. Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell My brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see Me.”

 

I stripped out the verse numbers because I wanted to focus on the flow of the narrative. Why the charade? If Jesus rose from the dead on Saturday, why were the guards unaware that the time for his resurrection had come and gone? They were guarding the tomb for the specified three days. Why does God send an angel and earthquake to open the tomb on Sunday morning before so many witnesses? Why is it taking Jesus so long to walk from the tomb (just outside the city) to the disciples inside the city that he went on ahead of them 15 hours ago (according to YOUR timeline)?

 

Why is God being so openly deceptive to everyone involved to create the impression that Jesus has JUST RISEN as the stone was opened?

 

 

Mark 16:1-13 [NKJV]

Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen. And they said among themselves, “Who will roll away the stone from the door of the tomb for us?” But when they looked up, they saw that the stone had been rolled away—for it was very large. And entering the tomb, they saw a young man clothed in a long white robe sitting on the right side; and they were alarmed.

But he said to them, “Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He is risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid Him. But go, tell His disciples—and Peter—that He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him, as He said to you.”

So they went out quickly and fled from the tomb, for they trembled and were amazed. And they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.

Now when He rose early on the first day of the week, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom He had cast seven demons. She went and told those who had been with Him, as they mourned and wept. And when they heard that He was alive and had been seen by her, they did not believe.

After that, He appeared in another form to two of them as they walked and went into the country. And they went and told it to the rest, but they did not believe them either.

 

Again the question, if Jesus was raised 15 hours earlier and clearly was busy about his Father's business on Sunday, why the complete lack of activity or contact for the previous part day of daylight and all of the darkness? Why wait until near sunrise when the 'day' started at sunset?

 

 

Luke 24:1-35 [NKJV]

Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared. But they found the stone rolled away from the tomb. Then they went in and did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. And it happened, as they were greatly[fn] perplexed about this, that behold, two men stood by them in shining garments. Then, as they were afraid and bowed their faces to the earth, they said to them, “Why do you seek the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galilee, saying, ‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.’ ”

And they remembered His words. Then they returned from the tomb and told all these things to the eleven and to all the rest. It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the other women with them, who told these things to the apostles. And their words seemed to them like idle tales, and they did not believe them. But Peter arose and ran to the tomb; and stooping down, he saw the linen cloths lying by themselves; and he departed, marveling to himself at what had happened.

Now behold, two of them were traveling that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was seven miles from Jerusalem. And they talked together of all these things which had happened. So it was, while they conversed and reasoned, that Jesus Himself drew near and went with them. But their eyes were restrained, so that they did not know Him.

And He said to them, “What kind of conversation is this that you have with one another as you walk and are sad?”

Then the one whose name was Cleopas answered and said to Him, “Are You the only stranger in Jerusalem, and have You not known the things which happened there in these days?”

And He said to them, “What things?”

So they said to Him, “The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and crucified Him. But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, today is the third day since these things happened. Yes, and certain women of our company, who arrived at the tomb early, astonished us. When they did not find His body, they came saying that they had also seen a vision of angels who said He was alive. And certain of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said; but Him they did not see.”

Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

Then they drew near to the village where they were going, and He indicated that He would have gone farther. But they constrained Him, saying, “Abide with us, for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent.” And He went in to stay with them.

Now it came to pass, as He sat at the table with them, that He took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they knew Him; and He vanished from their sight.

And they said to one another, “Did not our heart burn within us while He talked with us on the road, and while He opened the Scriptures to us?” So they rose up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven and those who were with them gathered together, saying, “The Lord is risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon!” And they told about the things that had happened on the road, and how He was known to them in the breaking of bread.

 

Once again focus on the flow of the narrative. What is Luke trying to say in the story and why does someone who went to such effort to clearly record eye-witness testimony in accurate detail suddenly become so sloppy when it comes to details like what day Christ was resurrected on? Clearly his story allows the reader to interpret events as all happening on the first day of the week (Sunday) and that is probably because Like was under the impression that the events happened on Sunday (including the Resurrection).

 

Note how bust Jesus was that whole Sunday of daylight. Meeting women in the morning, walking and talking all afternoon with disciples, and visiting with Apostles in the early evening. How unlike him then to have squandered so much time before sunrise on Sunday doing nothing.

 

I think it more likely that Luke recorded the events as he understood them. Jesus rose from the tomb at dawn and immediately got to work.

 

 

John 20:1-18 [NKJV]

Now the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. Then she ran and came to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.”

Peter therefore went out, and the other disciple, and were going to the tomb. So they both ran together, and the other disciple outran Peter and came to the tomb first. And he, stooping down and looking in, saw the linen cloths lying there; yet he did not go in. Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; and he saw the linen cloths lying there, and the handkerchief that had been around His head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded together in a place by itself. Then the other disciple, who came to the tomb first, went in also; and he saw and believed. For as yet they did not know the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead. Then the disciples went away again to their own homes.

But Mary stood outside by the tomb weeping, and as she wept she stooped down and looked into the tomb. And she saw two angels in white sitting, one at the head and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. Then they said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?”

She said to them, “Because they have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid Him.”

Now when she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, and did not know that it was Jesus. Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?”

She, supposing Him to be the gardener, said to Him, “Sir, if You have carried Him away, tell me where You have laid Him, and I will take Him away.”

Jesus said to her, “Mary!”

She turned and said to Him, “Rabboni!” (which is to say, Teacher).

Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ”

Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that He had spoken these things to her.

 

Here is John's account just for completeness. I am not qualified to debate the correct translation of a Greek participle, but I can read the flow of a narrative and comprehend the broad message and pattern that the author is attempting to convey. I have four narratives by four authors all conveying the same broad message and flow. In contrast, I have a claim about a Greek participle that you tell me means that all four accounts are deliberately misleading.

 

Others may read the stories for themselves and draw their own conclusions, but I am unconvinced that Jesus was raised on Saturday and took a long siesata, then worked like a dog on Sunday (after sunrise) to trick everyone by making it look like this really happened on Sunday.

 

 

 

 

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Neither am I convinced that this is actually "Essential" to salvation.

 

God bless,

William

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Neither am I convinced that this is actually "Essential" to salvation.

 

God bless,

William

 

Heh, I forgot to see the forest for the trees. I got so focused on the 'point' being unsupported, I forgot what the TOPIC was. :o ;)

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Heh, I forgot to see the forest for the trees. I got so focused on the 'point' being unsupported, I forgot what the TOPIC was. :o ;)

 

No biggie bro. What I think about the subject: I think one should recognize both essential and non essential doctrine which is detrimental to salvation. I think the SDA has broken from the "catholic" church over such matters, but yet has failed to provide the method by which a church should adhere to worship. For example, Tradition, Regulative Principle, or Normative Principle. Personally, I think the body's confession could hash this subject out (the WCF does), but I have to ask, is this really worth separating from the catholic (universal) church?

 

I'd also like to suggest, though I am a Calvinist I wouldn't go so far as to claim all those that do not believe in Reformed Soteriology are not saved. I think our salvation is not totally dependent upon our own ability to articulate through such doctrines (thank goodness). However, I think the catholic creeds or ecumenical creeds take out a lot of leg work and save us much time. Mind you, I think they are better articulated than I could profess, and rightfully so, because our forefathers in the faith through many lifetimes hashed out these essentials.

 

Now it is not my point to call someone a cult etc, but I think the ecumenical creeds have a wonderful way of exposing errors in various Sects and Cults. SDA drive most Protestants crazy because it is rather uncertain whether they are actually a Sect or Cult.

 

God bless,

William

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Does this not create even more problems for his claim to be three days in the grave ... so now he was crucified on Wednesday and was raised on Saturday and just took a Sabbath rest before getting back to the Apostles on Sunday?

 

Jesus never claimed that He would have been or would <>

 

So now "...most of all important... Christ was raised the third day according to the Scriptures" 1Corinthians 15:3,4... which even the ungodly were acutely aware and witnesses of, was "the day after the Preparation... the third day... late on the Sabbath". Matthew 27:62, 66; 28:1...

 

which means "according to the Scriptures He was buried"... "That Day the Preparation the Sabbath mid-afternoon nearing". Luke 23:54... 'Friday'

 

which means "Christ according to the Scriptures died" -- "on the first day they killed the passover". Mark 14:12... 'Thursday'.

 

 

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