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NetChaplain

​Rest There!

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The Lord Jesus in glory is the ground of my rest (trust—NC). In Him I learn what love is toward such a sinner as I am. I turn to look at that love, not in myself, but in Him; and I rest in my Father. What my soul rests in is what the Lord Jesus is, and what He has done on my behalf. My Father has loved me not only when I wanted it, but according to His knowledge of my need. He has not mistaken my case. I have found my Father. The cloud is taken away forever. My soul rests there.

 

It is important that we should know not only our need of the Lord Jesus in approaching our Father, but that He in His love gave His only Son that we might approach Him. “And we have known and believed that love.” Faith is always certain, and so I set my seal that my Father is true. Thus believing and looking to my Father, my soul is certain. “He that dwelleth in God, dwelleth in love.” My soul rests in His love.

 

[if grace then be what the Father is toward me, and has nothing at all to do with what I am, the moment I begin to think about myself as though He would judge me because of my sins, it is evident that I am not then consciously standing on the ground of grace.] J N Darby

 

And now I have fellowship—seeing the work He has done to cleanse my sins, as I learn it in the Lord Jesus and His Cross, and I am happy and at rest. Why should such a one murmur, or fret? “We have known and believed the love.” Man had no life from which the Father could expect anything, and so He gave a new life in His Son, that He may produce it. Do I find sins rather? He is the propitiation for our sins. I believe that and enter into fellowship.

 

Why do you find fear and torment when you find sin in yourself? Cannot you trust that love? Have you not had the Father on your neck in your rages (Luke 15:20—NC)? You must know the love your Father has for you, and then you know Him. His Son is your righteousness; why should you not have rest? “As He is, so are we in this world” (1John 4:17). The effect of grace is that we should feel sin, and know it blotted out, as well as our life in Him. “The glory Thou hast given Me I have given them, that the world might know that Thou hast loved them as Thou hast loved Me.” “There is no fear in love.” It is a matter of fellowship. “Perfect love casteth out fear.”

 

We are called to learn our Father’s love by the communication of what the Lord Jesus is for us, and then we realize we are in Him before the Father as the Son is. If so, I find rest to my weary heart: it rests in the Father—knows He is perfect—knows He has met all its need and all its sin put away. Thus we “joy in God.” Now we pass through this sorrowful wilderness, leaning on Him who is bringing us through it.

 

Does your heart rest in the love of your Father? Granted that He ought to be loved; but you are not honoring Him if you do not trust (rest—NC) what His love has been in the work of His Son on the Cross. All is perfected for you. He Himself has done it, that you might rest, and honor Him with your trust.

 

- W J Hocking

 

 

Devotional: http://www.abideabove.com/hungry-heart/

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Wow. Thanks, I needed that today.

 

My favorite part was "Man had no life from which the Father could expect anything ..."

William will be happy. I seem to be warming up to Monergism. ;)

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Wow. Thanks, I needed that today.

 

My favorite part was "Man had no life from which the Father could expect anything ..."

William will be happy. I seem to be warming up to Monergism. ;)

Hi Atpollard - Thank you for letting me know of your opinion concerning this article, for learning of what others think and how they are affected is part of the reason for communicating it.

 

Concerning Monergism and Synergism in my opinion, it is scripturally difficult to confirm which is more true, as are the many nonessential (doctrines not related to receiving salvation) truths of Scripture. I believe Essential (doctrines related to receiving salvation) truths are always direct and clear, to avoid the excuses leading to difficulty in misunderstanding them.

 

God's blessings to your Family!

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Concerning Monergism and Synergism in my opinion, it is scripturally difficult to confirm which is more true, as are the many nonessential (doctrines not related to receiving salvation) truths of Scripture.

 

Hi NetChaplain,

 

There couldn't be anything more essential and clearer. I believe your statement suggests that there isn't a clear position either between Catholic and Protestant soteriology. The last of the Five Solas is Sola Deo Gloria! - Glory to God Alone... by its very definition Synergism robs God of His due Glory and attempts to distribute God's Glory partly to Mary, the saints, and to the sinner with emphasis. I do not mean to be argumentative NetChaplain, or uncharitable, but I believe your downplaying soteriology to non essential doctrine reveals a major issue today, this is why so many "Protestants" are unwittingly regressing back to Catholicism - a very common and symptomatic trend among Non-Denominational members.

 

God bless,

William

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Hi NetChaplain,

 

There couldn't be anything more essential and clearer. I believe your statement suggests that there isn't a clear position either between Catholic and Protestant soteriology. The last of the Five Solas is Sola Deo Gloria! - Glory to God Alone... by its very definition Synergism robs God of His due Glory and attempts to distribute God's Glory partly to Mary, the saints, and partly to the sinner himself with emphasis. I do not mean to be argumentative NetChaplain, or uncharitable, but I believe your downplaying soteriology to non essential doctrine reveals a major issue today, this is why so many "Protestants" are unwittingly regressing back to Catholicism - a very common and symptomatic trend among Non-Denominational members.

 

God bless,

William

Hi William - I think because of the way I present my expressions, they are easy to misinterpret, which has been my observation from some of your replies (which is okay and is common with me), so I believe you may have misunderstood my use of terms. I also could never desire to downplay (though I admit how my post could appear so possibly due to the manner of my expression) anything you may post because I'm certain that your intentions (as all here) are truth-seeking.

 

First it should be realized what is meant by essential and nonessential doctrine. Essential doctrine is that which is required for receiving salvation, i.e. that faith in the Lord Jesus' expiation is the sole means of receiving salvation (John 14:6), and faith in His incarnation (1John 4:2, 3) and resurrection (Rom 10:9), esp. His resurrection because it presumes His incarnation. I believe anything added to this renders one's entire religion as anti-Christian.

 

Nonessential (not necessary for receiving salvation, but necessary for growth in it) doctrine is that which is not necessary to receive salvation, which does not effect receiving salvation, but rather increases the strength one's faith within salvation. For example, believing in OSAS does not effect receiving salvation, but does effect growth in it. Same for what we are discussing (monergism/synergism) which is not required for receiving salvation.

 

I believe it is important to differentiate between these two categories of doctrine, so there will be less confusion and conflict, thus allowing for increased spiritual growth, which also has great significance as does receiving salvation.

 

Hope this helps! God bless.

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For example, believing in OSAS does not effect receiving salvation, but does effect growth in it. Same for what we are discussing (monergism/synergism) which is not required for receiving salvation.

 

Thank you for clarifying, but I respectfully disagree. But first let me agree with you on the doctrine of OSAS, which is nothing more than a watered down spin off from Calvinist doctrine, "Perseverance of the Saints". The thought that someone can of their own accord walk to the altar and pray a prayer one time in life, or raise their hand in the assembly of the church and always be saved does not settle well. I do however believe that if Salvation was up to man, man would lose it. It is not a matter of us, but a matter of God, and whether God will lose anyone given the Son. Your OP suggest that we may rest in God, which I find contrary to synergism, which will require equal cooperation, and I am not saying that a man may not cooperate with God, but I am suggesting that a man will not want to cooperate with God unless the monergistic act of Salvation takes place FIRST.

 

Also lemme be perfectly clear, anyone promoting synergism has always in fact talked me out of believing that they themselves have received salvation. To share a quote from John Hendryx:

 

While on the surface the monergism - synergism debate may seem like a peripheral and frivolous matter, it is anything but frivolous. The synergistic doctrine that the natural man can self-regenerate, or cooperate with God by repenting and believing apart from being born again, fails both the test of Scripture and of experience since the unrenewed man can do nothing of himself to secure his salvation. Therefore it is essential that the sinner should be brought to practical conviction of the truth that even the very desire for faith is a gracious gift of God. When thus convinced by the Holy Spirit, and not before, he seeks help from the Savior. It may take time to let these concepts sink in and may require deep thinking, but it will change the perspective of your life in Christ.

 

Matter of fact this debate was so important in the history of the church that it led to the great Catholic and Protestant schism. I am comfortable with the following definitions pertaining to the works of the Holy Spirit by Hendryx:

  • Monergism: "In theol., The doctrine that the Holy Spirit is the only efficient agent in regeneration - that the human will possesses no inclination to Christ or holiness until regenerated, and therefore cannot cooperate in regeneration." In this view, the new birth (or regeneration) precedes faith
  • Synergism: "In theol., the doctrine that there are two efficient agents in [that are necessary as precursors for] regeneration, namely the human will and the divine Spirit, which, in the strict sense of the term, cooperate." In this view, faith precedes new birth (or regeneration).

I do not want to walk away from you by leaving a bad impression. I am not suggesting that Salvation is based solely on our knowledge, but I am saying that if we were to take those that profess synergism seriously, we'd have to reject them being saved. The contradictions are too apparent, lest we believe that Scripture contradicts itself. Instead, I personally believe that a person that contradicts themselves when pressed on essential soteriology, namely the synergism doctrine, that they are, "if saved, saved by their contradictions, and not by what they profess".

 

God bless,

William

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Just how does OSAS effect my growth here?, how is it that the grace we are all under that makes me WANT to repent effect it, forget it, heres my opinion:

 

I am not saved by any of my filthy rags, none of my works will save me or KEEP me saved, period, and I didn't earn it I wont lose it

 

I do not repent out of fear (because of works which is the law btw) but from an understanding and great respect for what awesome grace that covers me and the sheer magnitude of what Christ did for me.

 

What was it the apostles said when asked what must I do to be saved, was it believe and be saved, in fact when the apostles had said to repent to those who killed Christ it was in the sense of repent of your UNBELIEF.

 

In short the God I serve trusts me and I don't want to break that trust, now is this essential or nonessential,well let me put it this way, it will depend on how you see the character of God, either He is forgiving and deeply desires you to come from Him or He is counting your sins and if you miss repenting of one look out its Hell for you, no it will be grace until the time of grace is completed and Daniels 70th week comes back into play.

 

It is that same awesome amazing grace that is poured on all of us that tells me I am saved NOT because of anything I do but because of what Christ did for me, now if anyone wants to continue living under the law that's fine but my growth wont be stunted because I believe the truth of Gods word oh and eternal security is all over the bible, even when Noah entered the ark.

 

 

 

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Hi NetChaplain,

 

There couldn't be anything more essential and clearer. I believe your statement suggests that there isn't a clear position either between Catholic and Protestant soteriology. The last of the Five Solas is Sola Deo Gloria! - Glory to God Alone... by its very definition Synergism robs God of His due Glory and attempts to distribute God's Glory partly to Mary, the saints, and to the sinner with emphasis. I do not mean to be argumentative NetChaplain, or uncharitable, but I believe your downplaying soteriology to non essential doctrine reveals a major issue today, this is why so many "Protestants" are unwittingly regressing back to Catholicism - a very common and symptomatic trend among Non-Denominational members.

 

God bless,

William

Just for clarification, are you using the word 'Catholic' to mean something significantly different than the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church?

 

'Cause there is a whole lot more separation between the beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church (on salvation) and Reformed Protestantism than 'God does all the work' and 'I repent and God Justifies'. Your statements appear to claim that anyone who rejects Monergism embraces all of Catholicism (which 'taint so).

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Just how does OSAS effect my growth here?, how is it that the grace we are all under that makes me WANT to repent effect it, forget it, heres my opinion:

 

I am not saved by any of my filthy rags, none of my works will save me or KEEP me saved, period, and I didn't earn it I wont lose it

 

I do not repent out of fear (because of works which is the law btw) but from an understanding and great respect for what awesome grace that covers me and the sheer magnitude of what Christ did for me.

 

What was it the apostles said when asked what must I do to be saved, was it believe and be saved, in fact when the apostles had said to repent to those who killed Christ it was in the sense of repent of your UNBELIEF.

 

Hello JSB,

 

I am being pressed for time, so I will write this rather fast in hopes to give you something to think about before I return and read your response. Lemme ask you how has OSAS affected your life and faith? Lemme respectfully convey something I experience rather frequently from those with a Baptistic doctrine, for one they usually embrace OSAS, and they usually are Arminian, but to my point, they mainly focus on their works, whether it be their personal faith, personal baptism and emphasis on accompanying testimony or profession etc (man centered). Again, I am asking you to think about this and respond in a way that answers how has this doctrine affected you, and whether it has led you to share what you had in your above post, which strikes me as being rather contradictory to Philippians 2:12. Have you considered that OSAS may be responsible? Lastly, I ask you to at least consider the topic of Theology v. Religion. Theology is God centric, and Religion is man centric. Lets differentiate between these two and attempt to remove ourselves from the topic of discussion and lean towards theology and not religious types of debates.

 

Hope you do not mind me debating with you as your brother. I realize there is a difference between being argumentative and debating, I will respect you while approaching you civilly should we disagree in our discussions. That I promise.

 

(Please excuse my rush)

God bless,

William

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Thank you for clarifying, but I respectfully disagree

 

First I want to express my gratitude for the manner in which those on this site treat one another with kindness and respect, because some other sites on which I share have yet to learn this when sharing their belief's with one another.

 

Concerning my discussion with William, I want to first establish the main point of my discussion with him concerning a point I made with Atpollard, which has to do with understanding essential and nonessential doctrine. I do not think there can be much discussion with me until that is settled, and there has yet to be an address to this subject. I will be glad to discuss the other subjects brought up but the first subject needs addressed prior to continuing.

 

God's blessings to all!

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Hi Atpollard - Thank you for letting me know of your opinion concerning this article, for learning of what others think and how they are affected is part of the reason for communicating it.

 

Concerning Monergism and Synergism in my opinion, it is scripturally difficult to confirm which is more true, as are the many nonessential (doctrines not related to receiving salvation) truths of Scripture. I believe Essential (doctrines related to receiving salvation) truths are always direct and clear, to avoid the excuses leading to difficulty in misunderstanding them.

 

God's blessings to your Family!

Greetings:

Some days you just need a hug, and Feb 18 was just one of those days for me.

So your opening post was especially appreciated.

 

I have been giving some thought to what are the essential truths. At first I had thought that there might be some clever phrase or golden verse that I could point to and say "this is the essential truth", but as I reflected on it, I realized that there were several truths that were of absolute vital importance to me in my transformation.

 

First Essential Truth: God exists.

Looking back from my current world view, this seems almost silly. Like "duh, no kidding". However, we increasingly live in a world in which either the word 'god' has been redefined into something other than Him, or where the existence of the great "I AM" is very much not a given. Sadly, much of the fault for that rests with the Church (us). Far too many 'Christans' live lives that suggest that God may not, in fact, really exist. So the first step of actually embracing even the possibility of the existence of God really is, increasingly, essential. It was for me.

 

Second Essential Truth: There is hope.

This will make itself known in a lot of different ways. God is knowable and wants us to "came and see". Like the woman at the well or the woman caught in adultery, there is forgiveness. Like the crippled man at the pool of Bethesda, there is hope for a future. Like Peter, there is restoration after we fail. Like the prodigal son, a loving father is waiting to welcome us home ... to come running while we are still a long way off and embrace us and love us. In my Christian life, I have encountered far too many people who need to hear that there is hope ... That God is for them ... That they have not sinned beyond God's ability to forgive and restore. Without hope, we join the demons in believing that God exists and trembling in fear.

 

Third Essential Truth: It is not all about me.

Jesus Christ came in person, Almighty God Incarnate, to do all of the heavy lifting. I have nothing to earn and nothing to brag about. He did it, because it pleased him to do it, in order that His work in me might bring glory to the Father. Here is where all of the lessons on rest and abide and a light yolk come into play.

 

With the First Essential Truth, we can begin to seek.

With the Second Essential Truth, we cry out to God.

With the Third Essential Truth, we offer up our praise (including works of service).

 

So that's my contribution to the subject ... my candle against the darkness.

Arthur

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Some days you just need a hug

 

Definitely know what you mean, for the last 15 years of my 37 year Christian walk I have learned to be often encouraged through Word study, esp. those relating to spiritual growth (mostly from the Pauline epistles). I appreciate your sharing on essential truths, and the essential or required truths that have to do with receiving salvation (which is primarily the Gospel of Christ) are the ones I'm referring to.

 

Being saved is a requirement for union with God and growing in the faith of salvation is required for fellowship with Him. One can be saved and in union with God, and at the same time be out of fellowship with Him, if we are not learning what He desires us to know concerning spiritual growth truths that bring us closer to Him, which is where I believe that many in contemporary Christendom lack; which also answers to so many lacking desire for church fellowship and Bible study.

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Just for clarification, are you using the word 'Catholic' to mean something significantly different than the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church?

 

'Cause there is a whole lot more separation between the beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church (on salvation) and Reformed Protestantism than 'God does all the work' and 'I repent and God Justifies'. Your statements appear to claim that anyone who rejects Monergism embraces all of Catholicism (which 'taint so).

 

Hi atpollard,

 

I do not mean anything significantly different when using Catholic rather than Roman Catholic. As for my preference, it is because there are some 20+ rites of Catholicism, Roman being just one. I agree with what you shared, and as for those who reject Monergism, those people tend to fall under different categories, namely, Pelagianism and Semi Pelagianism. By default I believe most people are Pelagian, Catholic soteriology tends to fall under Semi Pelagian.

 

God bless,

William

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First I want to express my gratitude for the manner in which those on this site treat one another with kindness and respect, because some other sites on which I share have yet to learn this when sharing their belief's with one another.

 

Concerning my discussion with William, I want to first establish the main point of my discussion with him concerning a point I made with Atpollard, which has to do with understanding essential and nonessential doctrine. I do not think there can be much discussion with me until that is settled, and there has yet to be an address to this subject. I will be glad to discuss the other subjects brought up but the first subject needs addressed prior to continuing.

 

God's blessings to all!

 

Hi NetChaplain,

 

I acknowledge the context of what you shared, and yield back to you.

 

Thank you for your compliment, I believe we have a pretty mature group here at this time. A group I consider the "core" of this website and its future.

 

God bless,

William

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Hi NetChaplain,

 

I acknowledge the context of what you shared, and yield back to you.

 

Thank you for your compliment, I believe we have a pretty mature group here at this time. A group I consider the "core" of this website and its future.

 

God bless,

William

Thanks William for your reply, I suppose I'm misunderstanding you somewhere because I could not identify a reply that addressed the discussion concerning essential and nonessential doctrine, but that's okay.

 

Concerning monergism and synergism, I believe both can be confusing and that neither concept accurately expresses God's character enough. The prior cannot be explained without containing partiality ascription, which appearance results from conceiving that God has His own reason for not choosing to save everyone and conflicts with what His desire was, that all be saved (even though He knows most will not be saved), which in my opinion leaves the only alternative of man's choice to be (or not to be) the recipient, which is all man can do and is separate from effecting salvation in any scintilla of its production.

 

I not claiming that what I am sharing on this subject is definite truth, but showing where I am presently with these issues. Of course it should always be practiced and remembered that our motive for sharing what we believe to be truth is to be towards love to one another, without which as we know will discredit even the deepest of truths.

 

God's blessings to us, and blessed be God.

 

Robert

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Hope I didn't seem aggressive with anyone, and pray that we will continue in patience with one another while God is teaching us through each.

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Thanks William for your reply, I suppose I'm misunderstanding you somewhere because I could not identify a reply that addressed the discussion concerning essential and nonessential doctrine, but that's okay.

 

Hi Robert,

 

You are not overly aggressive. I apologize for leaving the discussion because I went away for the weekend. As a Reformed member I consider Calvinist soteriology to be essential. The TULIP pretty much covers essential doctrine, but I would add the Ordo Salutis.

  1. Election--God's choice of people to save. This choice occurred before the foundation of the world.
  2. Predestination--The work of God to ordain to salvation those who have been elected to it.
  3. Calling--The preaching of the gospel message.
  4. Regeneration--The change in the person produced by God.
  5. Faith--The trust an individual has in the work of God on the cross.*
  6. Repentance--Turning from sin.*
  7. Justification--The imputation of righteousness to the individual thus making him righteous according to the law.
  8. Sanctification--God's work in the individual to make him more like Christ.
  9. Perseverance--God's work in the individual results in the person continually believing throughout his life.
  10. Glorification--Resurrection to glory with God.

 

I asterisked what I believe those adhering to synergism emphasize and focus upon, that is, the outward expression of the believer while denying God's role in salvation before they were even aware, thus, the Synergist order of salvation begins with man's outward expression. Basically, I consider them as the Pagans, they know how to navigate a ship by sail through the wind, but they know not where the wind comes from or where it goes John 3:8. They worship the created thing (man) rather than God. Furthermore, I think they believe the lie in Genesis 3:5, the age old hiss from out of the garden of Eden through the forked tongue of the serpent. Here are the double lies 1) they believe they are independent from God, and able to rule over themselves apart from God (autonomous free will), and 2) there is not one God but many gods each soverign over themselves.

 

Furthermore, Ephesians 2:5 places regeneration before faith as an act of monergism, when we were dead... . dead men can do nothing for themself.

 

That leaves us with these following verses to deal with that you're alluding to:

  • "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" 1 Tim. 2:3-4.
  • "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance" 2 Pet. 3:9.

Either God cannot accomplish what He desires or the meaning of these verses is quite different than what you're suggesting. But before I address that I would like to consider the synergistic approach to these verses, because what you shared makes sense from a synergistic perspective. I say this because "if" God is sovereign and decides to save a man but a man rejects his offer then man is sovereign. This is why I reject man having free will in an autonomous and libertarian sense. For the sake of brevity I do not wish to go further but instead will suggest you read this: What is the difference between God's sovereign will and God's perfect will?

 

We can go further on this subject, however, I would like to express my reluctance because these arguments are so repetitive in nature. I do not wish to ignore you though because I believe it is essential and well worth your time and effort to first understand that Regeneration precedes faith - Monergism: What does "Rebirth", "Born Again", "Born from Above" or "Regeneration" Mean?

 

I ask that you entertain me Robert, brother, read these articles, because you care about me and want to understand my perspective. Because you have as much interest in me as I do you. If we should disagree, then so be it, we can politely do so in a civil mannerism.

 

God bless,

William

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You are not overly aggressive. I apologize for leaving the discussion because I went away for the weekend. As a Reformed member I consider Calvinist soteriology to be essential.

 

Thanks for you reply and your apology is kind but you have not caused a reason for it though. I agree that good doctrine, which there is within Calvinism is essential for growth, but I do not see where it is essential concerning receiving salvation. This is the point I'm trying to share, that which is essential for receiving salvation.

 

You are referring to that which might be essential for growing within salvation, i.e. to believe or not believe that one is saved eternally after reborn is not essential for receiving salvation but for growth within salvation. One can saved but be "weak in the faith" until there is sufficient growth, but the growth or lack thereof can never affect one's possession of salvation. Hope this helps.

 

God bless my Brother

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I agree that good doctrine, which there is within Calvinism is essential for growth, but I do not see where it is essential concerning receiving salvation. This is the point I'm trying to share, that which is essential for receiving salvation.

 

G'morning NetChaplain,

 

Quick question, do you believe receiving the Call in the Ordo Salutis from the Serpent itself would be essential in another man receiving Salvation? My question is whether you believe that would produce false converts? And would that even matter, besides this, we probably would agree that improper understanding of what I consider essential doctrine would result in misguided praise, worship, as well as misplaced Glory. If you were to ask me if I think it matters in receiving Salvation I would say yes, and note that it would cause self idol worship in the name of God.

 

God bless,

William

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My Brother Will - I think the only essentials for receiving salvation is faith in Christ's redemptive Cross-work, e.g. believing His expiation of sin sufficed the Father from condemning those who receive faith to believe this (Rom 4:7, 8; 5:1; 8:1, etc.); also that Christ was raised from the dead, which presumes another essential--His incarnation (Rom 10:9; 1John 4:2, 3; 2John 1:7). The remnant of Biblical truth relates to growth after receiving salvation.

 

According to Scripture, belief in these truths provide salvation from the Father, through the Lord Jesus, by Their Spirit (Rom 8:9; 1Pet 1:11). All other Biblical truth has to do with growth within salvation. The reason differentiating between truths for receiving salvation and growing within it is to stress the importance of each.

 

Many in contemporary Christendom are not being mindful enough when sharing Biblical doctrine with one another that we should not stress growth truths as requirements for being saved, which results in much confusion and contention. Growth will eventually come to each believer because Scripture confirms it (Phil 2:13).

 

This is not to under-stress the importance of actual growth truths, for it is within them that we "draw close to God" (Jam 4:8) towards strengthening our fellowship within our union with Him. I believe there are many who are Christians (in truth) that are deficient of the fellowship which God will eventually have with them, and it's due to the lack of receiving mature Scriptural teachings which have been lacking much within the last century.

 

The Jews who have always believed in God but not His Son (John 14:1) are presently out of fellowship with Him, but Scripture is clear He will, as always, bring them back into fellowship with Him when they see Jesus. God's chosen people of Israel who believe in Him (but not Jesus) have only been broken off from His fellowship, not from union with Him. The only Jews who never had union nor fellowship with God are those who were unbelievers in Him (never really trusted Him).

 

This is unlike the rest of the people of the world where most are unbelievers, for the Jews were the primary ones God had union with since Abraham, and the majority of the rest of mankind have always and even now consisted of unbelievers (a situation different from the people of God in the past where most did and still do believe in God (trust Him).

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My Brother Will - I think the only essentials for receiving salvation is faith in Christ's redemptive Cross-work, e.g. believing His expiation of sin sufficed the Father from condemning those who receive faith to believe this (Rom 4:7, 8; 5:1; 8:1, etc.); also that Christ was raised from the dead, which presumes another essential--His incarnation (Rom 10:9; 1John 4:2, 3; 2John 1:7). The remnant of Biblical truth relates to growth after receiving salvation.

 

G'day Robert,

 

I would suggest that far more happens unawares than appears initially through the outward expressions of the believer. My previous post Robert, has stated what is unfolding here in this conversation. With an emphasis placed on the believers faith I am attempting to walk us back a few steps in the Ordo Salutis so we may rightly proclaim Soli Deo Gloria. Really, these debates wouldn't matter to me, but I believe they lead a person into orthodoxy.

 

For example, a man cannot even see let alone enter the kingdom of God without FIRST being Regenerated John 3:1-8. If I were to skip over those things in the Ordo Salutis, namely Election, and Predestination and reverse John 10:26 I would say synergist have a case. In John 10:26 the Scriptures says, You do not believe because you are not among my sheep. The verse does not say you are not among my sheep BECAUSE YOU DO NOT BELIEVE. Belief itself is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Faith is enabled in us, made possible through Regeneration which happens to the Elect. To suggest a man should have blind faith or can blindly believe in the resurrection or whatever he cannot see let alone enter waters down man's sin nature, and the doctrine of Total Depravity while promoting another gospel with Pelagian tendencies. Lastly, I think you kind of ignored my prior post. I'm not going to let you off the hook :) Perhaps it was unclear, do you think preaching another gospel produces false converts? Or, and I mean this politely, will you go so far as to suggest that it doesn't matter what a man believes as long as he has faith? And why am I persistent on making this point? It is because an essential doctrine was suggested such as the redemptive cross work, yet when pressed most will reveal their salvation came about from exercising free will with emphasis.

 

 

 

I think I made a post already suggesting people, like this video with synergistic views are misplacing faith, praise, worship, and committing self-idolatry.

 

Again, I find Calvinist soteriology (TULIP) essential doctrine.

 

John 6:44: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

 

No man can come to me: Total Depravity

Unless the Father: Unconditional Election

Who sent me draws him: Irresistible Grace

And I will raise him up: Limited Atonement

On the last day: Perseverance of the Saints

 

God bless,

William

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Blessed Brother William - I can appreciate your labors in posting what you want to share in our discussions but it seems that we are presently at an impasse in our attempts to share clear enough for us to understand what each would like the other to know. The materials you've been sharing have often been the subjects of my study for the last 25 of my nearly 40 year walk with Christ, and I'm in agreement with nearly all of their truths, but they address spiritual growth in Christ rather than the matter of coming to Him.

 

Maybe what I'm attempting to share with you is not timely for understanding now but I would like to continue to try. I think what you are sharing may have to do more so with how one comes to faith rather than the fact of one coming to faith. I believe we agree that salvation comes only from God through His Word (Rom 1:16; 10:17), and in my comprehension it matters not in the outset of rebirth concerning the particulars of how it occurs, but will be significant later during one's growth in spiritual truths.

 

To address our discussion humbly and directly, I would like to add that in the first flush of one's rebirth it will not initially be apparent to the one being born again concerning how God brings one "through faith" into salvation, but the believer will eventually learn what God desires to teach and at what pace concerning this and many other growth truths. Thus, the Spirit, through the Gospel of Christ in the Scriptures effects salvation with the soul apart from the knowledge and understanding of the many Biblical growth truths which will be learned latter during the "conforming" processes.

 

Hence the terms essential--which concerns the requirements for receiving salvation, and nonessential--which are not related to the requirements for receiving, i.e. it is not required to know the growth truths to be saved, but the growth truths are required in order to grow.

 

Just for a check-question to attempt to determine if my reply is clear, do you think one must know about predestination, or eternal security to be saved? I suspect your answer would be the same as mine, which is no, because it's the Spirit giving faith in the Gospel of Christ that saves, the growth truths do not save but add strength to one's faith. What do you think?

 

God Be Blessed

Robert

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Hello Robert,

 

I realize that people have studied for some time. My personal belief is that it doesn't matter whether we studied for 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, and even a hundred years. To draw a circle around myself and declare that I reinvented the wheel is to ignore the historical development of essential doctrine throughout the Church. This is why Reformed Theology, namely the essentials of soteriology are so important to me. You ask whether I think predestination is important for one to be saved? I answer by saying that preaching half or a false gospel affects the one receiving salvation and can produce false converts. Having knowledge acquired through a relationship with God strengthens faith, a faith that doesn't begin or end within ourselves, but in the object of our faith Jesus Christ. Without knowing what God has done why would anyone have faith in what God has done? While I believe that the Spirit does not produce bad fruit, I believe people produce bad fruit and haven't a problem with blaming the Spirit for such produce. You ask whether eternal security is essential? I respond by saying if it is true then it is essential, but the emphasis on eternal security should be carefully conveyed in such way as to not relieve man of accountability or responsibility. It no less stuns growth than suggesting Universalism is true or only Jewish Universalism is true.

 

What do I think about what you shared? Well again, my emphasis is on God, and not man, man's outward expressions, whether a little water, a profession, a testimony, or altar call are as said elsewhere nothing more than filthy rags. Obviously we are not agreeing as to what is essential or non essential. If we were to remove Election, Predestination, Calling, and Regeneration, we'd be left with nothing more than man's works. Perhaps this is why the height of Arminianism leads to Rome? With so much emphasis being placed upon man's expressions and works, it is little wonder to me how the pope can declare atheist and even dogs to heaven, but not us Protestants. Really, is there any difference between the works of any man or even a beast of burden when we remove the emphasis of monergism?

 

If you care to continue the thread on the topic of Spiritual growth, by all means please continue. I'll be reading and might ask a question here and there if I have one.

 

God bless,

William

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I believe man has no part in effecting (producing) faith but can only be a recipient of it, for the Lord Jesus is its "Author and Finisher." Chat ya latter little Brother!

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I believe man has no part in effecting (producing) faith but can only be a recipient of it, for the Lord Jesus is its "Author and Finisher." Chat ya latter little Brother!

 

Soli Deo Gloria!!!

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