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Jordan Henshaw

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About Jordan Henshaw

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  1. Jordan Henshaw

    Debate: The State\Fate of the Dead

    Why did God protect Adam and Eve from the Tree of Life? If the church is so famous for getting massive things wrong (Protestant Reformation, Spanish Inquisition, Pharisees etc...), why on earth should I trust it for getting a smaller thing right, especially when it is about something as insane sounding as a loving God who tortures people for eternity? Why should I trust the church? I instead trust the BIBLE: The bible says that God protected Adam and Eve from the Tree of Life. The bible says that the wicked shall perish. The bible says those who seek after immortality will be given eternal life. The bible says that the wicked shall become ashes under the soles of the feet of the righteous. The bible says that Sodom is an example of what will happen to the wicked. The bible says that Jesus had compassion and forgiveness for those who crucified him. The bible says that the lake of fire is the second death. The bible says that the righteous will be given the right to eat of the tree of life that they may live forever.
  2. Jordan Henshaw

    Debate: The State\Fate of the Dead

    He did!!!!!!!!!! OK, so died by being crucified. And sinners will die by being burned alive. It's DEATH both ways. Who cares if it's by crucifixion or by fire? What's important is that it is brief suffering followed by death instead of eternal suffering with no death. What????????? Who said that Judas is wishing he was never born right now??????????????? "The Son of Man will go just as it is written about Him, but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed! It would be better for him if he had not been born.” - Jesus Where does it say Judas will be wishing he was never born while being tormented for eternity in Hell? I don't think I even addressed this in the debate because I don't even understand how it's a remotely logical argument. Scripture. Notice I used dozens and dozens of passages. You must not have read through my list of additional passages in support for this. Because it's eternal. Will never end. Bye bye. If I burn a matchstick, it has been inflicted eternal destruction. That matchstick will cease to be a matchstick for eternity. Bye bye matchstick. Two men are sentenced to the death penalty (we still do that in the US sometimes.) The judge says that the first will be given death by electrocution and that the second will be given death by lethal injection. The first man is electrocuted. Then it is the second man's turn. He realizes that what happened to the first man did not involve lethal injection. He is relieved and proclaims, "I'm not going to die today! If the first man sentenced to death wasn't given a lethal injection, neither will I!" And the second man was given the shot. Did the second man die? The first man is Jesus. He was sentenced with execution by crucifixion. The second man is the sinner. He was sentenced with execution by fire. Does the fact that Jesus wasn't executed by fire mean that the sinner can't be executed by fire?
  3. Jordan Henshaw

    Debate: The State\Fate of the Dead

    How could I have done that though? I mean I cited almost 100 passages in direct support.
  4. Jordan Henshaw

    Debate: The State\Fate of the Dead

    First of all, I would like to address a serious error I made in my first rebuttal. I claimed that my opponent mischaracterized my position on the nature of immortality, and my statement on that matter was entirely false. I re-read most of my opening statement, but stopped when I found what I was looking for – the statement I then quoted – and attacked my opponent based on that alone, instead of on my entire opening statement. This was a mistake on my part. I apologize to my opponent for attacking him on false grounds and for not investigating thoroughly the accuracy of his claims. I will in the future increase my attentiveness to detail and will look thrice before attacking the veracity of another’s claims about me. Again, I thank my admirable opponent for his willingness to participate in this debate, and I thank you all for considering my usual position. What we have here is a matter of life and death, folks. What we are here to decide is whether those cast into the fires of hell will survive or if they will cease to be conscious. To come to a clear decision on this matter we must remove all lenses of bias, presuppositions, and normality to perceive clearly that which our Creator seeks for us to comprehend. Do the words of Romans 6:23 mean that the punishment for sin involves cessation of consciousness, or does it mean that the punishment for sin involves eternal suffering? I have presented my side of the argument, and my opponent has presented his. We have seen that it all comes down to just one word: death. Are we meant to interpret this word as a spiritual, figurative death, or are we meant to understand this word as a physical, literal death? My opponent believes that the scriptures fully support the idea of a spiritual, figurative death for the wicked, and I believe that the scriptures fully support the idea of a physical, literal death for the wicked. I have cited more than 75 passages from scripture that I believe clearly support my position. My opponent however has only cited about 20, 11 of which I have easily refuted. Let’s look at the four biggest problems with his argument. 1. Sinners will live forever: My opponent believes that there is a difference between immortality and eternal life. This is simply false. The specific word “immortality” isn’t used terribly often in the bible, but it is NEVER, EVER used to describe the wicked. 2 Timothy 1:10 – “but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.” Romans 2:7 – “To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life.” 1 Corinthians 15 – “So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable. 43It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power…Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable…For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality… + 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 – “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.” (This can easily be confused for meaning that everyone will be raised to immortality, but read the entire chapter, and compare it to other texts written by the same author, look at it as chronological sequence of events, and it becomes very clear that he is talking about the righteous here. Do not take that one verse out of context and make false assumptions.) 1 Timothy 6:16 – “who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.” 1 Peter 1:23 – “for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.” While it doesn’t explicitly state: “Immortality is the same thing as eternal life”, it is extremely clear that it always associates immortality with those who are with God ALONE, and that it NEVER associates it with the wicked. It makes no clear distinction between the two. 1 John 3:15; Mark 10:17; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:18; John 3:16; John 5:39; John 6:54; John 6:68; John 10:28; John 17:2; John 17:3; Acts 13:48; Romans 2:7; Romans 5:21; Romans 6:23; 1 Timothy 6:19; Titus 1:2; Titus 3:7; 1 John 1:2; 1 John 2:25; 1 John 3:15; 1 John 5:11; 1 John 5:13; 1 John 5:20; Jude 1:21; Genesis 3:22; Revelation 2:7; Revelation 22:2; Revelation 22:14; John 4:14; Revelation 21:6; 1 Corinthians 15:53; 1 Corinthians 15:54; 1 Timothy 6:16 (Note: My admirable opponent may use John 17:3 to define the meaning of eternal life, but will ignore the context and will forget that the only people who are immortal will be in heaven, which means every person with eternal life all share similar qualities, but said qualities are not definitive of the idea of living forever itself.) 2. Stories like Sodom cannot be used to acutely understand what will happen in Revelation. My admirable opponent makes the assertion that we can ignore passages of scripture that are in direct parallel with things in Revelation and make the Revelation passages mean what we want them to mean. When God says that “In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire.” – Jude 1:7 - we can’t use that image to understand what eternal fire means in the end times. In addition, when God says: “And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever.” – Revelation 14:11 -we can’t use this: “It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever. 11But pelican and hedgehog will possess it, And owl and raven will dwell in it…” – Isaiah 34:10 (speaking of Judgment Day) -to understand what the verse in Revelation means because… that’s bad hermeneutics? Because my opponent thinks that because it is spoken of in Revelation, it must somehow be special. The fact that it is in Revelation means that we can throw out whatever bits and pieces we don’t like. If God says that the wicked will receive the punishment of “eternal fire” on Judgment Day and also says that Sodom is an example of “eternal fire”, we can’t look at Sodom to see what will happen – no! We have to make up our own idea of what will happen that fits our worldview. Sodom’s eternal fire ended, but the eternal fire spoken of in Revelation has to be a different eternal fire because what God told us doesn’t work with our worldview, so we have to make stuff up and justify it by saying, “Oh, it’s special because it’s on the other side of eternity. (wait a second…it’s on the other side of what exactly?)” 3. Jesus’ death was an eternal death. No. Sorry. Jesus did not suffer an eternal death. Jesus did not suffer an eternity of torture in one moment. That is false. That doesn’t even make sense. Frankly, that is ridiculous. There are absolutely NO verses in the bible that attest to this. I’ve never even heard this before. The lengths people will go in order to save their worldview is truly stunning. Yes, Jesus is an eternal being smashed into a mortal body, but that does NOT mean that He endured an eternity of hellfire in one moment. That is false. That claim is NOT substantiated by anything. 4. Destroy, perish, die, etc. actually refers to a spiritual death. Matthew 7:13; John 17:12; Acts 8:20; Romans 9:22-23; Philippians 1:28; Philippians 3:19; 1 Timothy 6:9; Hebrews 10:39; 2 Peter 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 5:3; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; 1 Timothy 6:9; Romans 1:32; Romans 6:21; Romans 7:5; Romans 8:6; 2 Corinthians 7:10; James 1:15; James 5:20; 1 John 5:16; Revelation 2:11; Revelation 20:6; Revelation 14; Revelation 21:8; 2 Corinthians 11:15; Philippians 3:19; 1 Peter 4:17; Galatians 6:8; 2 Peter 2:12; Matthew 3:12; Matthew 7:19; Matthew 13:40; John 15:6; Matthew 7:27; Matthew 13:48; Matthew 15:13; Luke 13:7; Luke 17:27; Luke 17:29; Luke 17:32; Matthew 21:41 Look at the passages yourselves. Determine what you think these passages mean by death. Also, consider how hard it would be for a non-believer to die spiritually if they were never spiritually alive. In summation, I will shortly ask you a simple question. But first, let me remind you of what exactly it is my opponent seems to believe. ETERNAL. CONSCIOUS. TORMENT. Let’s look at each of these terms individually. ETERNAL: The meaning of eternal is unending. It stretches out forever. It has no end. Googol. It is a made up number that signifies a 1 followed by 100 zeros. Googolplex. It is a made up number that signifies a 1 followed by 1 googol zeros. The number of atoms in the universe comes nowhere near the number googolplex. Let’s say the letter “t” signifies googolplex. The following number comes nowhere close to the length of eternity: 10tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt ttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt The approximate number of atoms in the cosmos is around 1080 CONSCIOUS: Conscious means that a person is sentient. It means the person is able to think thoughts. It means the person is able to experience pain. It means the person is able to form ideas. TORMENT: The torment in Hell is quite literally the most gruesome form of torture that a person could possibly conceive. Have you ever held your finger to the flame of a cigarette lighter? Well that is yellow flame. And it is only your finger. In Hell, a person’s entire body will be submerged in blue flame. Sulfur burns much, much hotter than the gas in a cigarette lighter. Now, what my opponent believes is that every sinner whose name is not found in the Book of Life will suffer consciously the most gruesome, painful form of torture known to man for more googolplex number of years than there are atoms in the cosmos. He believes that even the person who never once heard the name Jesus will suffer that eternal penalty along with the person who heard the name Jesus every day. Luke 12:47 - "That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows." Psalm 145:9 - "The LORD is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made." Luke 6:36 - "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful." 2 Samuel 24:14 - "David said to Gad, “I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands.” What we have found is that there is OVERWHELMING biblical evidence that declares that the INSANE idea that a loving God would torture people forever is simply not true at all. I have used well over SEVENTY-FIVE passages from all over the Bible that paint a very clear picture of what God’s plan is: Ever since the garden of Eden, God has made it clear that He does NOT intend to torture people forever, and instead PROTECTED Adam and Eve from living forever under the curse of immortality. Then he went on to DESTROY Sodom and Gomorrah with eternal fire. Centuries later, the prophet Isaiah prophesied that God would one day destroy the wicked and that the righteous would go out to look upon their carcasses, and that the memory of them would be despised forever. Also, the prophet Malachi prophesied that the righteous would tread on the ashes of the wicked. Then, we see what the punishment for sin is when Jesus takes it upon himself and suffers the penalty of a relatively short period of intense suffering followed by death. Then, the writers of the New Testament write extensively on the concept of the gift of eternal life – a gift given only to the righteous. They write of how the righteous will specifically be raised from the dead and how the righteous will put on immortality. Then. In Revelation, the wicked are judged according to their works, weep and gnash their teeth, are cast into the lake of fire, and will perish once justice has been rendered. Once this has been accomplished, Revelation prophesies that God will create a new heaven and a new earth and will make all things new. The former will pass and there will be no more sadness or tears. Then, those in Heaven will be given the right to eat of the tree of life, which will allow them to live forever. It’s all there in black and white. You can’t deny it. You have to look at the entire bible. You have to look at it as one big picture. You have to open it up and read it. What the church has done is it has taken verses like: “some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” “For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched,” “And these will go away into eternal punishment,” “They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction” “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever,” and has built an entire theology off of it, completely denying the fact that these verses can EASILY be interpreted from the opposite perspective. Don’t you see that these verses don’t mean eternal conscious torment? Don’t you see that God is referencing what Isaiah said about a battlefield? Don’t you see that the smoke rising up is a symbol that Isaiah used and doesn’t mean there will be eternal smoke? Can’t you see that eternal punishment means eternal punishment and not eternal conscious torment? Can’t you see that Romans 6:23 is saying that the wages of sin is the second death in the lake of fire? Can’t you see that God didn’t want Adam and Eve to live forever once under the curse of sin? Can’t you see that eternal life is a gift for the righteous only? Can’t you see that getting cast into a lake of fire involves turning to ashes? Can’t you see that you can’t be eternally in the process of destruction? Can’t you see that you don’t have to be alive to be in everlasting contempt? Can’t you see that God is going to make everything new? Can’t you see that God plans to destroy the wicked? Can’t you see that God never said he will burn people forever? I once assumed that God planned to torture people forever, just like my opponent. I believed that for as long as I could remember. It was a well-known fact. It was undisputed. Of course Hell is where people burn forever. How could it be anything different? That’s the only Hell I knew. But then someone asked me a question. And through seeking the answer to that one simple question, I realized that everything I thought I knew about Hell was wrong. I looked at John 3:16. I looked at Romans 6:23. It clearly said that the wicked would perish and die. It did not say that they would live forever in torment. That’s just not what it says. Then I looked at Genesis and at the tree of life. I saw that God very clearly did NOT want anyone to live forever once under the curse of sin, but instead had taken direct action to prevent that from happening. Then I looked at the passages that were parallel to “the worm that dieth not” and “the smoke of their torment rose forever” and “eternal fire”, I saw that it was all just a colossal mistake. No! It doesn’t mean the smoke will still be rising a billion years later! It’s poetic imagery from Isaiah! No! Eternal fire doesn’t mean fire that would never go out! How could I have read the words “unquenchable fire” without ever thinking about what the word “quench” means in relation to fire? That whole time I for some reason thought the fire was just really thirsty! Then I started reading the bible in a new light and everything made so much more sense. Instead of Romans 6:23 saying the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment, it finally said that the wages of sin is death. I realized that God wasn’t lying when he said that he would destroy the wicked. I realized that he wasn’t just fooling around when he said that the gift of God is eternal life. Brothers and sisters, where in the Bible does it say that God wants to punish Eve with trillions of years of brutal torture for disobeying Him once? Where does it say, “The wicked will burn forever”? Where does it say, “The wages of sin is eternal torment”? Where does it say, “The wicked shall live forever in Hell? Where does it say, “The soul of every man shall live forever”? Where does it say, “The wicked will never end”? Where does it say, “The wicked shall perish”? Where does it say, “The wages of sin is death”? Where does it say, “The righteous will live forever”? Where does it say, “The soul can be destroyed in hell”? Where does it say, “The wicked shall be ended”? Hell does not torment people forever. The wicked will not live forever. That is false. The wicked shall perish. That is why it is called the second death. Jesus did not pay the price of eternal hellfire, but instead, the price of death. 1 John 3:15; Mark 10:17; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:18; John 3:16; John 5:39; John 6:54; John 6:68; John 10:28; John 17:2; John 17:3; Acts 13:48; Romans 2:7; Romans 5:21; Romans 6:23; 1 Timothy 6:19; Titus 1:2; Titus 3:7; 1 John 1:2; 1 John 2:25; 1 John 3:15; 1 John 5:11; 1 John 5:13; 1 John 5:20; Jude 1:21; Genesis 3:22; Revelation 2:7; Revelation 22:2; Revelation 22:14; John 4:14; Revelation 21:6; 1 Corinthians 15:53; 1 Corinthians 15:54; 1 Timothy 6:16 Matthew 7:13; John 17:12; Acts 8:20; Romans 9:22-23; Philippians 1:28; Philippians 3:19; 1 Timothy 6:9; Hebrews 10:39; 2 Peter 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 5:3; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; 1 Timothy 6:9; Romans 1:32; Romans 6:21; Romans 7:5; Romans 8:6; 2 Corinthians 7:10; James 1:15; James 5:20; 1 John 5:16; Revelation 2:11; Revelation 20:6; Revelation 14; Revelation 21:8; 2 Corinthians 11:15; Philippians 3:19; 1 Peter 4:17; Galatians 6:8; 2 Peter 2:12; Matthew 3:12; Matthew 7:19; Matthew 13:40; John 15:6; Matthew 7:27; Matthew 13:48; Matthew 15:13; Luke 13:7; Luke 17:27; Luke 17:29; Luke 17:32; Matthew 21:41 Isaiah 53:5-6; John 10:11; 1 Peter 2:24; Mark 10:45; Hebrews 10:9; Romans 3:25; 1 Peter 3:18; Ephesians 5:25; Leviticus 16:10; 1 John 3:16; Deuteronomy 21:22 Genesis 3:22 – “Then the LORD God said, ‘Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever’" Revelation 2:7 – “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will grant the right to eat of the tree of life in the paradise of God.” Revelation 22:2 – “down the middle of the main street of the city. On either side of the river stood a tree of life, producing twelve kinds of fruit and yielding a fresh crop for each month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.” Revelation 22:14 – “Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.” Matthew 13:24-30; 37-43 – “Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’ 36 “Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, ‘Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.’ 37 “He answered and said to them: ‘He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!’” Luke 12:47 – “That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows.” Ezekiel 28:13-19 – “You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared. 14“You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. 15“You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you. 16“By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire. 17“Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I put you before kings, That they may see you. 18“By the multitude of your iniquities, In the unrighteousness of your trade You profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you. 19“All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will cease to be forever.”’” 1 Timothy 6:16 – “He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light.” Psalm 145:20 – “The Lord preserves all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy.” Philippians 3:19 – “Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things.” Malachi 4:3 – “And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the Lord of hosts.” Matthew 10:28 - "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Isaiah 34:10-11 - "It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever. 11But pelican and hedgehog will possess it, And owl and raven will dwell in it..." Romans 2:7 – "To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life." Revelation 21:4 – "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things have passed away.” 5And the One seated on the throne said, 'Behold, I make all things new.'” Romans 6:23 – “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life.” John 3:16 – “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him would not perish, but would have eternal life.” Revelation 21:8 – “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers,and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden…” Genesis 3:22 – “Then the LORD God said, ‘Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever’" Revelation 2:7 – “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will grant the right to eat of the tree of life in the paradise of God.” CONCLUSION: You can continue to warp the entire bible to fit the view of eternal conscious torment, or you can choose to remove all presuppositions, take off your blue glasses, and look at the OVERWHELMING evidence and see that our God is a just God who has compassion, has no desire to keep sinners around for eternity, and wishes to make them morally, ethically, spiritually, physically, positively, absolutely, undeniably, and reliably DEAD . And this is our example of what Hell will accomplish (notice the lack of fire, ghosts, and screaming): I do most positively do believe that the unrighteous will truly be not only merely dead, but really most sincerely dead. helltruth.com rethinkinghell.com I ask you to open the scriptures with an open mind, free of any human assumptions or biases, that we may pursue with greater purity the wisdom that our God has imparted to us. Thank you all for your time.
  5. Jordan Henshaw

    Debate: The State\Fate of the Dead

    I again thank my opponent for his willingness to participate in this debate, and I thank you all for considering my unusual perspective. As predicted, my admirable opponent has not been able to explain logically how a human mind and body can survive the brutal, unfathomable agony of submersion in a lake of burning sulfur for more than 10 seconds. As predicted, he has considered a handful of passages (about 11) that appear to support his viewpoint, but will fail to look at them in the context of the entire bible. As predicted, some of the passages he has quoted have clearly nothing to do with this debate at all. As predicted, he has failed to produce a single verse that explicitly supports the paradoxical concept that those in Hell are both alive and dead, while as predicted, conceding that the term used in pertinent verses is indeed “death”. As predicted, he has failed to provide a single verse that explicitly states that the human soul is inherently immortal. In addition to this predicted behavior, my admirable opponent has made four key mistakes, one being a severe logical fallacy, the other three being major mischaracterizations of my clearly explained affirmative position. The first mistake my admirable opponent has made in is appealing to a fallible, human authority. His second mistake is in characterizing my own argument to make it mean the unrighteous will receive no conscious punishment. “I believe they will be burn in the lake of fire until their sin has burnt up. Then the fire will reduce them to ashes (Malachi 4:3).” His third mistake is in characterizing my own argument to make it mean the unrighteous will cease to exist. “I do not believe the unrighteous will be ‘annihilated’, per se, in the sense that they will cease to exist. (Malachi 4:3).” His fourth mistake is in characterizing my own argument to make it mean that immortality is a curse. “The God I believe in, the God of the bible, is the merciful, compassionate God who protected Adam and Eve from the Tree of Life so that they would not live forever under the curse of sin.” Now I will quickly address the relevant passages that he has provided: Genesis 2:17 – The Hebrew word yom used here for “day” rarely in the bible refers to a 24 hour period. Adam and Eve are certainly dead. Hebrews 9:27 – Are those cast into the lake of fire ever resurrected like they were after they died on earth? No. Their punishment is eternal. (Mathew 25:46) Mathew 25:46 – Eternal in result, not in action. This can easily work for both arguments, especially in light of the various translations and grammar differences. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 – One cannot be in the process of being destroyed forever. Thus, again, eternal in result. This works for both arguments. Mathew 10:28 – This is perhaps the strongest evidence in favor of my argument. Being destroyed by a lake of fire involves being reduced to ashes. Revelation 20:15 – So if you throw an ant in a bowl of water and it drowns, a fish will also drown if thrown in? John 3:36 – Does it say the wrath of God abides on him forever? No. Does someone need to be alive to be hated? No. Most people today hate Hitler, despite the fact that he died a long time ago. The same is true of the Sodomites. Most people seem to still remember them as very bad people, despite them being dead for 4,000 years. Revelation 14 – This is parallel to, “It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever. 11But pelican and hedgehog will possess it, And owl and raven will dwell in it…” – Isaiah 34:10. I’m pretty sure the pelican and hedgehog will tell you the land is no longer burning while they inhabit it. Some conscious torment does not equal eternal torment. Revelation 20:10 – This is not talking about humans. Luke 13:28 – I never said there is no conscious punishment. Mark 9:44 – This is a parallel to “And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.” – Isaiah 66:24. This is clearly not talking about people being burned alive forever. My admirable opponent makes the case that Jesus’ death on the cross refutes my position because the contrast between the price Jesus paid and the price the unrighteous would pay would be too great. Let’s see whether or not this makes sense: The price Jesus paid: a relatively short period of intense suffering followed by death. The price I believe sinners will pay: a relatively short period of intense suffering followed by death. The price my opponent believes sinners will pay: an eternal period of intense suffering with no death. What I believe is that the unrighteous are born, live a sinful life (Romans 3:23), die an earthly death (Hebrews 9:27), are resurrected on Judgment Day (Revelation 20:13), are judged according to their works (Revelation 20:13), weep and gnash their teeth (Luke 13:28), are cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15), quickly lose consciousness and perish once their sin has been burned up (Luke 12:48), and are reduced to ashes (Malachi 4:3). What my opponent believes is that a sinner will somehow magically be able to stay alive in said lake of fire, will continue to do so for a trillion years, will bob up to the surface, and someone will say, “You think you’re done? You’re just getting started!” and will push the sinner back down. What he believes is that a selfless child in Africa who spent his entire existence serving his family and laid down his life so that his siblings could be happy and yet never even once heard the name Jesus will receive the same punishment as Adolf Hitler – eternal conscious torture with no end. Every time. No matter who you are. They all will be brutally tortured FOREVER. What he believes is that the unrighteous will perish, but will at the same time be alive, in the sense that they are consciously aware, but at the same time they are spiritually dead because they are separated from God (despite the fact they were never spiritually alive, of course), but they are still no less alive than you and I because they can still be tormented by the lake of fire, but they are still somehow dead because the bible says they will perish, but their bodies will somehow have to stay intact so that they can continue to feel the pain, despite the fact that nothing in the bible says they will have any kind of immortality, despite the fact that it actually states the exact opposite more than 34 times, and despite the fact that it repeatedly describes them being destroyed – but that doesn’t matter because the word destroy doesn’t necessarily mean kill – it can also mean to knock down a tower of blocks, so the human bodies won’t be reduced to ashes by this lake of fire because we don’t have a verse that spells out every letter for us, no – they are destroyed, but somehow remain conscious because this form of destruction is somehow different than the normal, human view of destruction in that it doesn’t actually involve physical destruction, but instead some other kind of destruction that isn’t anything like what we all know what happens to things that get burned because the bible says they will be destroyed, and that can’t possibly mean that they get reduced to ashes because there are like 2 verses that if taken out of the context of the rest of the bible seem to indicate that these people somehow can’t possibly be burned to ashes, despite having absolutely no verse to directly support the idea that they are inherently immortal and can survive a lake of fire for longer than 10 seconds. Additional support for cessation of consciousness of the wicked: Mathew 7:13; John 17:12; Acts 8:20; Romans 9:22-23; Philippians 1:28; Philippians 3:19; 1 Timothy 6:9; Hebrews 10:39; 2 Peter 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 5:3; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; 1 Timothy 6:9; Romans 1:32; Romans 6:21; Romans 7:5; Romans 8:6; 2 Corinthians 7:10; James 1:15; James 5:20; 1 John 5:16; Revelation 2:11; Revelation 20:6; Revelation 14; Revelation 21:8; 2 Corinthians 11:15; Philippians 3:19; 1 Peter 4:17; Galatians 6:8; 2 Peter 2:12; Mathew 3:12; Mathew 7:19; Mathew 13:40; John 15:6; Mathew 7:27; Mathew 13:48; Mathew 15:13; Luke 13:7; Luke 17:27; Luke 17:29; Luke 17:32; Mathew 21:41 Support for concept of conditional immortality: 1 John 3:15; Mark 10:17; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:18; John 3:16; John 5:39; John 6:54; John 6:68; John 10:28; John 17:2; John 17:3; Acts 13:48; Romans 2:7; Romans 5:21; Romans 6:23; 1 Timothy 6:19; Titus 1:2; Titus 3:7; 1 John 1:2; 1 John 2:25; 1 John 3:15; 1 John 5:11; 1 John 5:13; 1 John 5:20; Jude 1:21; Genesis 3:22; Revelation 2:7; Revelation 22:2; Revelation 22:14; John 4:14; Revelation 21:6; 1 Corinthians 15:53; 1 Corinthians 15:54; 1 Timothy 6:16 Support for eternal conscious torment of the wicked (and Satan): Revelation 14:11; Revelation 20:15; Mathew 25:46 Support for the inherent immortality of man’s soul: (0 results) Support for “will perish but will remain conscious” paradox: (0 results) Support for humans being able to survive Hell: (0 results) Let’s have some examples of things that are “dead”, have been “destroyed”, and have “ended”. When something dies, it stops moving. It is no longer conscious. It can’t think anymore. It can’t feel pain anymore. It doesn’t talk anymore. It is dead. It doesn’t move. It can’t. It died. It is dead. Unless it is a zombie in The Walking Dead. That’s really the only time a dead thing would still move around. Anything human cast into a lake of burning sulfur will die and will cease to be conscious. Period. The only way my admirable opponent can possibly explain how a human thrown into a lake of burning sulfur would survive longer than a minute is by relying on a miracle of God - a miracle that has absolutely NO basis in scripture and flies in the face of the seventy-five verses above that teach destruction/death for the wicked and immortality only for the righteous. Now, my opponent nevertheless will attempt to persuade you with his small handful of verses that the unrighteous will be miraculously suspended by God for eternity. My opponent likely will attempt to persuade you that the wages of sin is not “death”, but is instead eternal life in torment. My opponent likely will attempt to persuade you that God loved the world so that whoever believes in Him would not live forever in torment, but would have eternal life. My opponent likely will attempt to persuade you that the seventy-five verses above should be ignored, and that they do not have any weight in light of his three verses that seem to at first glance support his view. My opponent likely will soon go back to the handful of verses he has already introduced, will argue how they fit his views, but will not acknowledge that many of them can be easily be understood to support my views as well. But he will argue these cases anyway. My opponent likely will like a child born into the world wearing blue sunglasses look at his handful of verses from his blue perspective and will be unable to read them in any light other than what he is accustomed to. He will likely argue that verses like 2 Thessalonians 1:9 and Mathew 25:46 can only be interpreted in favor of his perspective. My opponent likely will use verses like Mathew 10:28 and Mark 14:21 to support his perspective, despite the massive logic flaws with such arguments. My opponent will likely continue to believe that Jesus’ death on the cross is his strongest argument against mine. My opponent will again neglect to provide explicit biblical evidence for the inherent immortality of the soul. My opponent will again ask you to forget that his entire perspective is built on the paradox that the righteous will perish and be destroyed, but will at the same time be alive forever. And he will again neglect to provide explicit biblical evidence for it. Once he is finished with his rebuttal, I will proceed to ask you, as an audience, a simple question. Forever in the pursuit of eternal edification, I respectfully thank my opponent for his willingness to participate in this debate, and I thank you all for considering my unusual perspective.
  6. Jordan Henshaw

    Annihilationism Is Actually...Biblical

    Scripture twisting is when you change John 3:16 to say: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him would not suffer eternal life in torment, but would have eternal life." And Romans 6:23 to say: "The wages of sin is eternal life in torment, but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord." The word Annihilationism uses in both verses is "perish". Because that's what is written in the bible. Perish is not the same as "eternal life". That is a paradox. you can't be both alive and dead at the same time. The punishment for sin is DEATH. There is no reason to believe that actually means eternal life in hell. That's just not what it says. It says the wicked will be destroyed. It says they will be turned to ashes. Perish does not mean life forever. It just doesn't. Sorry.
  7. Jordan Henshaw

    Annihilationism Is Actually...Biblical

    You don't think getting cast into a lake of fire is punishment? Yes, they die, and yes, it's over for them, but it is a terrible end. And it certainly is Hell. Are you making the argument that God should instead punish them with literally the most painful form of torture imaginable for TRILLIONS of TRILLIONS of EONS?
  8. Jordan Henshaw

    Annihilationism Is Actually...Biblical

    I think I see where you are trying to go, but I really don't see how you are going to get there. You seem to think that these people have qualities that make them superhuman, and that said qualities somehow will allow them to survive the lake of burning sulfur, but when I read the text, I don't see a lick of evidence for superhuman abilities at all. These plagues seem to be very similar to those inflicted on Egypt back in the Torah. Were the Egyptians superhuman in any way? I don't think so. Why would these people be any different? Do people normally die when they get seared? No. It hurts, but it isn't fatal. Does everyone die in Egypt when the Nile turns to blood? No. Do sores kill people? Not usually. Job survived. There's no reason to believe that he was superhuman in any way. Does darkness kill people? Nope. Not fatal. So I really don't see how you are arriving at the conclusion that these punishments were things that would normally kill people. I really don't see where you're getting that from. There is no verse explicitly spelling out that the fire turns the bodies to ashes, but that is what fire does. That is what fire does. Fire turns things to ashes. Light a match and you can find out yourself. If this was the special kind of fire that was used on Moses' bush, then don't you think there would be mention of this? Because fire always turns things to ashes. Every time. In all of history. Every time. That's what fire does. Except for twice. And in those times, the bible clearly specified that something very special was happening. But here it doesn't. And look. We even have a verse that talks about those ashes - "'You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing," says the LORD of hosts." - Malachi 4:3 Huh.
  9. Jordan Henshaw

    Annihilationism Is Actually...Biblical

    Yes. They were dead already. So is my great great great great grandfather. Notice verse 20:13 - "The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them..." They are raised up again, just like everyone else. Verse 9 was their first death. Their first death is much like the first death of the Sodomites back in Genesis. That's why the lake of fire is called the "second death". So if the lake of fire turns the body into ashes, how can it continue to torment?
  10. Jordan Henshaw

    Annihilationism Is Actually...Biblical

    OK, this is what I was looking for. How is this possible? How can you continue to be tormented by a lake of burning sulfur if it has turned your body to ashes?
  11. Jordan Henshaw

    Debate: The State\Fate of the Dead

    Greetings, ladies and gentlemen, I thank my opponent for his willingness to participate in this debate, and I thank you all for considering my unusual perspective. Every morning we open our bibles to read the scriptures, to sing in worship, and to understand the God of the universe. Every day we dive into the scriptures to know more, to understand more, and to clarify more. Every day we seek to know who God is. Today should be no different. Today, I ask you to open the scriptures with an open mind, free of any human assumptions or biases, that we may pursue with greater purity the wisdom that our God has imparted to us. In this free mindset, I ask you to challenge a truth that many brothers and sisters have believed without question for the entirety of their walk with God. The truth I today ask you to challenge is this: the punishment God renders to every unrighteous human - regardless of language, lifestyle, ethnic background, or even exposure to the Gospel - is the most painful form of torture known to man, lasting trillions of trillions of trillions of years. At no point in this debate will I attempt to appeal to your emotions. At no point in this debate will I appeal to any fallible, human authority. Instead, I will show you that the inerrant Word of God stands in direct conflict with this truth (that I once believed myself), as described above. I will show you that the bible instead teaches that immortality is a gift given only to the righteous, that it repeatedly teaches that the unrighteous will perish, will be destroyed, and will be burned up, and that the punishment for sin is clearly illustrated through the death of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. My admirable opponent will acknowledge that the wages of sin is indeed “death”, and that the righteous will receive eternal life, but will disagree on the meaning of this “death”. My opponent will attempt to convince you that said death is the equivalent of unending life in the death of Hell. He will try to convince you that the unrighteous will be alive and conscious, but will also be dead. He will not be able to provide a single verse that explicitly supports this concept. He also will not be able to provide a single verse that supports the concept that the human soul is inherently immortal. I on the other hand believe that the lake of fire will quickly destroy the humans cast into it. I will not ask you to stretch fundamental rules of logic. I will not ask you to forsake your basic human judgment. I will not ask you to believe blindly something that does not make sense. 1. The bible specifically states more than 34 times throughout scripture that immortality is a gift that God will give to the righteous only. In Genesis, God casts Adam and Eve out of the garden specifically to protect them from the curse of immortality. 1 John 3:15; Mark 10:17; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:18; John 3:16; John 5:39; John 6:54; John 6:68; John 10:28; John 17:2; John 17:3; Acts 13:48; Romans 2:7; Romans 5:21; Romans 6:23; 1 Timothy 6:19; Titus 1:2; Titus 3:7; 1 John 1:2; 1 John 2:25; 1 John 3:15; 1 John 5:11; 1 John 5:13; 1 John 5:20; Jude 1:21; Genesis 3:22; Revelation 2:7; Revelation 22:2; Revelation 22:14; John 4:14; Revelation 21:6; 1 Corinthians 15:53; 1 Corinthians 15:54; 1 Timothy 6:16 2. The bible expressly states that the wicked shall be destroyed, slaughtered, and burned to ashes repeatedly throughout scripture. Our example of what will happen to the wicked is Sodom, which is no longer burning, despite having been burned specifically by eternal fire. Mathew 10:28; Romans 6:23; James 1:15; 2 Corinthians 7:10; 1 John 5:16; Revelation 20:14; Revelation 21:8; Philippians 3:19; Psalm 145:20; Mathew 7:13; Psalm 68:2; John 3:16; John 10:28; Jude 1:7 3. If the punishment for sin was eternal conscious torment, Jesus must still be dead. Or else his tiny sacrifice of simply crucifixion and death must be meaningless in the face of God’s eternal anger. Isaiah 53:5-6; John 10:11; 1 Peter 2:24; Mark 10:45; Hebrews 10:9; Romans 3:25; 1 Peter 3:18; Ephesians 5:25; Leviticus 16:10; 1 John 3:16; Deuteronomy 21:22 My admirable opponent will consider a handful of verses that appear to support his viewpoint, but will fail to look at them in the context of the entire bible. I will then show you examples of similarly phrased verses written in other places in the bible to communicate completely different concepts than what my opponent’s position requires - concepts that are perfectly in line with my viewpoint. Some of the passages he may quote likely will have clearly nothing to do with this debate at all, and others likely will be supportive of both views. My admirable opponent will attempt to convince you that the word “death” simply means separation, but will be unable to reconcile this with verses that speak of the soul and body being destroyed in Hell. He will be unable to explain logically how a human mind and body can survive the brutal, unfathomable agony of submersion in a lake of burning sulfur for more than 10 seconds. I will not ask you to use un-scriptural miracles to serve as the foundation of your view of Hell. I ask you to abandon all human assumptions - even those we have made for as long as we can remember - and to look to the bible to perceive for ourselves the most logical, scripturally consistent understanding of Hell. I do not believe the unrighteous will be “annihilated”, per se, in the sense that they will cease to exist. I believe they will be burn in the lake of fire until their sin has burnt up. Then the fire will reduce them to ashes (Malachi 4:3). I do not believe that God gives each unbeliever the same punishment as another. I do not think that God would give the punishment of eternal torment to both Adolf Hitler and to a selfless, humble slave in Africa who laid down his life to save his siblings, but never once heard the name Jesus. That is not my God. The God I believe in, the God of the bible, is the merciful, compassionate God who protected Adam and Eve from the Tree of Life so that they would not live forever under the curse of sin. He must destroy the wicked with His wrath, of course! However it is extremely unreasonable to believe He would wish them to live forever, to hate Him forever, to curse Him forever, and to despise Him forever in the fires of Hell. The bible clearly states that he will destroy them – not that he will miraculously suspend them forever. One cannot be both dead and alive at the same time. That paradox is at the very core of the belief of eternal conscious torment. “15which God will bring about in His own time—He who is blessed and the only Sovereign One, the King of kings and Lord of lords. 16He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him.” – 1 Timothy 6:15-16 "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Mathew 10:28 "He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken." - Genesis 3:22-23 "'You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,' says the LORD of hosts." - Malachi 4:3 "It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever. 11But pelican and hedgehog will possess it, And owl and raven will dwell in it..." - Isaiah 34:10-11 "Yet a little while and the wicked man will be no more; And you will look carefully for his place and he will not be there." - Psalm 37:10 "In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire." - Jude 1:7 "To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life." - Romans 2:7 "On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." - Revelation 22:2 "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things have passed away.” 5And the One seated on the throne said, 'Behold, I make all things new.'” - Revelation 21:4 I again thank my opponent for his willingness to participate in this debate, and I thank you all for your willingness to consider my unusual perspective. Thank you.
  12. Jordan Henshaw

    Annihilationism Is Actually...Biblical

    Only now I can't seem to figure out how to send a message. I respectfully decline, sir. I am a child of God - that is all that matters.
  13. Jordan Henshaw

    Debate challenge to Jordan Henshaw

    I think Origen is supposed to make the thread as he's the moderator.
  14. Jordan Henshaw

    Rules For Debates

    I tried that already and it just gives me a "Message Center" page that says "New Message" at the top with nothing to click on.
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