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How really accurate is the bible?

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    #46
    Originally posted by atpollard View Post
    Perhaps you are laboring under the opinion that God is merciful to all people at all times ... that is Santa Claus, not God (although traditionally, even Santa gave coal to bad children).
    EXCELLENT POINT. God is under no obligation to be merciful to anyone. If and when He is, it is purely an act of grace.

    Comment


      #47
      Originally posted by justme View Post
      Does it make any difference what you or think? If God gives instructions to do something we are to do it. To do otherwise is disobedience, and a sin. God is in total control. Much better to see children and infants in heaven than to allow them to grow up like their parents. Adults had already gone so far as to be unredeemable. IMO.
      Only to the extent that IF someone is going to claim that God gave an 'evil' command, they should be required to at least make a case that the command WAS 'evil'. We should not just take anyone's word for it that what God commanded was 'morally wrong'.
      Ultimately, as a philisophical exercise, once you reject God as the yardstick for right and wrong, it becomes VERY HARD to prove any action is either good or evil. Like the quote William gave from Einstein, once we reject LIGHT, we just stumble around in darkness.

      Comment


      • Hakeem Alyazeedi
        Hakeem Alyazeedi commented
        Editing a comment
        One of the evil and immorality done by the Bible God is in 2 Samuel 12:11 which reads ""This is what the LORD says: 'Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight."

        I cannot agree that the holy righteous God casued adultery and in public as shown in 2 Samuel 12:11. It must be a corruption of several corruptions in the Bible.

      #48
      Isaiah 55:9: "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

      That about sums it up.
      Last edited by deade; 02-12-2018, 12:26 PM. Reason: Add sentence

      Comment


        #49
        Originally posted by Hakeem Alyazeedi View Post
        One of the evil examples is in 2 Samuel 12:11 which reads ""This is what the LORD says: 'Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight."

        I cannot agree that God casued adultery and in public. It must be a corruption of several corruptions in the Bible.
        So what is the context?
        Did God just wake up one morning in a bad mood?
        Is it a warning of a future punishment if they do not repent?
        Is it punishment for some evil act?
        Is God simply stepping back and allowing people to suffer the consequences of their choice to embrace immorality?

        You CLAIM it is an evil act by God ... now PROVE it!

        Comment


        • Hakeem Alyazeedi
          Hakeem Alyazeedi commented
          Editing a comment
          Such act of causing such adultery in public cannot be of the Righteous God (Psalms 145:17) because the wives of David were not at fault and hence God only punishes the sinner (not the innocent) according to Ezk 18:1 "the soul that sins shall die"

        • atpollard
          atpollard commented
          Editing a comment
          So you didn't bother to read the context.
          Read about what David did in the chapter before the quote.
          Read about how God confronted David in the rest of the chapter that you quoted from.
          Read about how David's sin affects his family and God's prophetic curse plays itself out through sinful people following their fallen nature in the chapters that follow the one you quoted.

          God did nothing except remove his blessing and allow people to do as they please ... and what pleases people is to do evil in the sight of God.

        • Hakeem Alyazeedi
          Hakeem Alyazeedi commented
          Editing a comment
          Hi atpollard.

          Of course, I am aware of the context but still in 2 Samuel 12:11-12. Surely no guilt the wives of David did so that God caused them adultery in public and hence its against the teaching of Ezk 18:4 "the soul that sins shall die"

        #50
        Hakeem Alyazeedi I see that you list your denomination as "other" but since there are no non-Christian choices, I expect that your religious category was not listed. Please state specifically what your religion or Christian denomination is. Perhaps you are Muslim. Is this true? If you are to be taken seriously on this site, you need to be willing to be honest about what your religious view is and what your project on this site is.

        Comment


        • William
          William commented
          Editing a comment
          Not saying you are, but lets not grow impatient with Hakeem. After all, he did bring the grammatical issues to at least one other member's attention which hadn't known about them before. I tend to think our God welcomes rational investigation and discourse. Lets pray that Hakeem's heart and mind may not only be made receptive but also illuminated by the Holy Spirit.

        #51
        Originally posted by William View Post
        Not saying you are, but lets not grow impatient with Hakeem. After all, he did bring the grammatical issues to at least one other member's attention which hadn't known about them before. I tend to think our God welcomes rational investigation and discourse. Lets pray that Hakeem's heart and mind may not only be made receptive but also illuminated by the Holy Spirit.
        Thanks Wiliam, I agree with what you are saying, and appreciate your reminder. I guess I felt that it would be helpful for him to be honest about his views and to be willing to share what he hopes to accomplish by his activity here. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect him to be open about that.

        Comment


          #52
          Hello Hakeem Alyazeedi, I would like to ask you a different question. Have you ever heard of Nabeel Qureshi, who until he died unexpectedly last year, worked for RZIM? I very much liked Qureshi and was sorry when I learned he was no longer alive. Anyway, he has an interesting book called, "Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus." I wonder if you have ever seen that book, and if so what you think of it?

          Here's an interesting article on the tribute Ravi Zacharias paid to his friend last year: Ravi Zacharias pays tribute to apologist Nabeel Qureshi

          Comment


          • justme
            justme commented
            Editing a comment
            My wife and I watched Ravi's tribute to him on Direct TV channel; 278 NRB It was wonderful. Nabeel's conversion from Islam to Christ was such an awesome testimony. Have you heard his testimony?

          • Eric T.
            Eric T. commented
            Editing a comment
            Hi justme! We often watch the NRB channel at my house, it is (I think) better than the others. I believe I haven't seen the video of Ravi's tribute to Nabeel, but I'd like to. I can't remember if I've seen his testamony, but I may have as I did see some recordings of him and Ravi in front of different audiences.

          #53
          Another example of doctrinal contradiction is where Exodus 12:29 says "Now it came about at midnight that the Lord struck all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive who was in the dungeon, and all the firstborn of cattle." However, God killing the innocent firstborn of Egypt cannot be attributed to God because "the Soul that sins shall die" in Ezk 18:1.

          Comment


          • justme
            justme commented
            Editing a comment
            I am wondering why you don't seem to believe God did kill those who refused to obey? That's not a contradiction, but only in the misunderstanding of not fully believing God demands obedience.

          • Hakeem Alyazeedi
            Hakeem Alyazeedi commented
            Editing a comment
            Saying "You appear to judge simply based on an action fo God- but God knows the heart and the end from the beginning" is general but no mention of such reasoning is provided when God ordered the killing of the children and infants in Exodus 12:29, 1 Samuel 15:3 and EZK 9:5-7 and plus such deeds and orders attributed to God go against specifically the scriptures of Ezk 18:4 "the soul that sins shall die" and Deut 24:16 "the sons shall not be put to death for their parents"

          • nolidad
            nolidad commented
            Editing a comment
            Hakeem you are judging God based on your own understanding. The simple fact is that God even destroyed the entire human race except 8 souls in a worldwide flood! Including all the land animals except those aboard the ark! God is merciful. He is not obligated to save any one! Man has rebelled against god not God against man! People are conceived in iniquity and born in sin and by nature are enemies of God! And despite that He chooses to save some!

          #54
          Originally posted by Hakeem Alyazeedi View Post
          Another example of doctrinal contradiction is where Exodus 12:29 says "Now it came about at midnight that the Lord struck all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive who was in the dungeon, and all the firstborn of cattle." However, God killing the innocent firstborn of Egypt cannot be attributed to God because "the Soul that sins shall die" in Ezk 18:1.
          Ezekiel 18:1 says "Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,"

          Ezekiel 18:4 says "Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins shall die."
          [God claiming the right to kill or spare whomever God chooses because God is the owner of ALL SOULS (father and son).]

          Ezekiel 18:20 says "The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."
          [Note that this is part of a larger discussion ...
          "As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother, and did what is not good among his people, behold, he shall die for his iniquity. Yet you say, 'Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?' When the son has done what is lawful and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."
          ... note that God and God alone has the right to pass judgement on ALL SOULS. When a man is caught in a sin that the Law required him to be put to death, it was PEOPLE who wanted to kill the son for the sin of the father. God forbid MEN to pass that sort of judgement. As Ezekiel 18:4 made clear, only God had that right.]

          So you are attempting to hold God to a law that applies only to men.


          As an aside, 1 John 1:8 [If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us] ... so EVERYONE sins, and Hebrews 9:27 [And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,] ... EVERYONE dies, so you are making too big a deal about WHEN. What matters is what happens at Judgement ... Romans 9:15 [For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.”]

          Comment


          • Hakeem Alyazeedi
            Hakeem Alyazeedi commented
            Editing a comment
            atpollard, still Deut 24:16 that says "the sons shall not be put to death for their parents" and goes on to say "every one shall be put to death for his own sin"

          • atpollard
            atpollard commented
            Editing a comment
            Romans 5:12 NLT When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned."
            Deuteronomy 12:16 NLT “Parents must not be put to death for the sins of their children, nor children for the sins of their parents. Those deserving to die must be put to death for their own crimes."

            Everyone sinned, everyone deserves to die for their own sin ... what is the problem?

          #55
          Originally posted by Hakeem Alyazeedi View Post
          Another example of doctrinal contradiction is where Exodus 12:29 says "Now it came about at midnight that the Lord struck all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive who was in the dungeon, and all the firstborn of cattle." However, God killing the innocent firstborn of Egypt cannot be attributed to God because "the Soul that sins shall die" in Ezk 18:1.
          Another very poor attempt to find a contradiction where there is none.

          The sad part is you could clear all of this up yourself if you were only as willing to learn the facts as you are willing to post nonsense. You simply throw out your claims as if you have proven something simply because you quoted a text or two. As I have said before you have no interest in the literary context of the documents, the cultural context in which they were written, the grammatical nuances of the languages, the lexical range of the vocabulary, or Christian doctrine. In fact you know nothing about any of these fields of study and your posts prove that.

          Don't embarrass yourself any longer by parroting anti-Christian and anti-Biblical sites which have no interest in being fair, accurate, or honest. Stop waiting your time, and more importantly our time, with these lame examples which only serve to highlight (yours and the site where you find them) unwillingness and inability to dig deep into the text, the history, and grammar to find cogent answers.

          Comment


            #56

            Another doctrinal contradiction is Genesis 23:2 "No one born of a forbidden marriage nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD, not even in the tenth generation." This is completely against the scripture in Ezk 18:4 "the soul that sins shall die" and Deut 24:16 that says "everyone is to die for his own sin"

            Comment


              #57
              The make believe contradictions never end. Hakeem is not really seeking but attacking. When proven wrong he won't admit to it but will keep jumping somewhere else.
              Two passages to bear in mind.
              1. Matthew 7:6
              2. Titus 3:10

              Comment


              • Hakeem Alyazeedi
                Hakeem Alyazeedi commented
                Editing a comment
                Hi Faber

                Saying "Hakeem is not really seeking but attacking" is not true and I am presenting my view.

                Whether a person is an atheist or christian or hindu, there are contradictions in the Bible. The clearest contradiction is on the age of Ahaziah when he began to rule (22 yrs vs. 42 yrs) between 2 Chronicles 22:2 and 2 Kings 8:26.

              #58
              Hakeem Alyazeedi. Could you be willing to tell me what religion you are? I am not trying to humiliate you, it simply would make it much easier to understand why you ask the questions, and statements you are making. There is no reason to hide, as we have had all types of people and religions come on the forum. I for one would be far more understanding and less frustrated if you could share this, please.

              Comment


                #59
                Originally posted by Hakeem Alyazeedi View Post
                Hi atpollard.
                Of course, I am aware of the context but still in 2 Samuel 12:11-12. Surely no guilt the wives of David did so that God caused them adultery in public and hence its against the teaching of Ezk 18:4 "the soul that sins shall die"
                If you are aware of the context, then how can you say that?
                The wife of Uriah committed adultery and cooperated with the plot to deceive her husband to cover it up, then she married her adulterer lover as soon as he killed her husband. ... You see no guilt on her part?
                David's wives agreed to sleep with David's son as part of a coup to seize the throne. They slept with him in public so that everyone would know that the heir had taken the king's wives to bolster his claim on the throne. ... You see no guilt in their part of this?
                What did God actually do? He allowed sinful people to follow their sinful desires. How can you argue that God has no right to permit people to choose to sin or suffer the consequences of their choices?

                Comment


                • Hakeem Alyazeedi
                  Hakeem Alyazeedi commented
                  Editing a comment
                  2 Samuel 12:11-12 are as follows;

                  11 “This is what the Lord says: ‘Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.’

                  God caused adultery with the wives of David in public not because of his wives guilt but because of David guilt according 2 Samuel 12:12.

                • atpollard
                  atpollard commented
                  Editing a comment
                  2 Samuel 16:15-23 NASB says:

                  15 Then Absalom and all the people, the men of Israel, entered Jerusalem, and Ahithophel with him. 16 Now it came about when Hushai the Archite, David’s friend, came to Absalom, that Hushai said to Absalom, “Long live the king! Long live the king!” 17 Absalom said to Hushai, “Is this your [fn]loyalty to your friend? Why did you not go with your friend?” 18 Then Hushai said to Absalom, “No! For whom the LORD, this people, and all the men of Israel have chosen, his I will be, and with him I will remain. 19 Besides, whom should I serve? Should I not serve in the presence of his son? As I have served in your father’s presence, so I will be in your presence.”
                  20 Then Absalom said to Ahithophel, “Give your advice. What shall we do?” 21 Ahithophel said to Absalom, “Go in to your father’s concubines, whom he has left to keep the house; then all Israel will hear that you have made yourself odious to your father. The hands of all who are with you will also be strengthened.” 22 So they pitched a tent for Absalom on the roof, and Absalom went in to his father’s concubines in the sight of all Israel. 23 The advice of Ahithophel, which he gave in those days, was as if one inquired of the word of God; so was all the advice of Ahithophel regarded by both David and Absalom.



                  God ALLOWED the King's son to rebel, capture Jerusalem, and listen to the advice of men to obey his sinful lusts and sleep with David's concubines. Nobody involved in this was not neck deep in sin all of their own choosing. The public adultery was the free choice of those involved. There is no evidence that God forced anyone to do anything. They wanted to sleep their way into the Kings household and Absalom wanted to shame his father by doing what he knew was evil. God promised David that God would bring calamity out of his own household ... he did so by allowing people to follow their sinful desires.

                  Your charge against God is nonsense. God is not required to prevent people from sinning. That is what you are demanding of God.

                • Hakeem Alyazeedi
                  Hakeem Alyazeedi commented
                  Editing a comment
                  atpollard saying "Your charge against God is nonsense" is not true because corruptions crept into the text of the Bible.

                  For example, God forbidding the bastard from attending the congregation in Deut 23:2 is injustice and against the scripture where "the LORD commanded, saying, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the sons, nor the sons be put to death for the fathers; but each shall be put to death for his own sin" in 2 Kings 14:6.

                  Same thing with God killing all the firstborn of Egypt in Exodus 12:29 is hardly love and goes against God command that "everyone shall die for his sin" in 2 kings 14:6

                #60
                Originally posted by Hakeem Alyazeedi View Post
                Another example of doctrinal contradiction is where Exodus 12:29 says "Now it came about at midnight that the Lord struck all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive who was in the dungeon, and all the firstborn of cattle." However, God killing the innocent firstborn of Egypt cannot be attributed to God because "the Soul that sins shall die" in Ezk 18:1.
                Hakeem, you seem to be mixing physical references with spiritual references. Physically, the sins of the fathers can be visited on the sons: Numbers 14:18: "The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." This is a physical curse.

                Spiritually: Ezekiel 18:4: "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die."

                God would never make someone give up their salvation for another's sin. I hope this helps you understand.

                Comment


                • Hakeem Alyazeedi
                  Hakeem Alyazeedi commented
                  Editing a comment
                  "The LORD commanded, saying, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the sons, nor the sons be put to death for the fathers; but each shall be put to death for his own sin." in 2 Kings 14:6
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