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Saul and Samuel

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  • Saul and Samuel

    Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” He said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul.” The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.” He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage.
    1 Samuel 28:11-14 ESV


    On another thread in this section someone made the claim that this wasn't really Samuel but an evil spirit impersonating him. He based this on the fact that believers go Paradise when they die and Samuel is pictured coming up out of the earth. Since the thread in which he said this is closed I can't respond to him there but he brought up a point that I feel needs to be addressed.

    The first mention of believers going to Paradise after death is found in Luke 23. One of the criminals being crucified with Jesus acknowledged that Jesus was the Messiah and asked to be remembered when Jesus entered his kingdom. Jesus said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

    Jesus died before the criminal did and by his death he atoned for our sins and opened the way for us to enter Paradise when we die. Before his death this wasn't the case. The Old Testament speaks of all who die, whether they are good or bad, going down to a place called Sheol. In the New Testament this is called Hades. Prior to his death Jesus told a story of a rich man and a beggar named Lazarus who died. Here is part of what he said: "The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side." The rich man was in Hades. Since he could see Abraham and Lazarus they must have been in Hades too, just in a different part. (Some claim this story is a parable, not an account of something that really happened. I have a post in my blog in which I discussed this claim: Lazarus and the rich man – parable or actual event? | clydeherrin )

    It is obvious that Samuel was in Sheol, or Hades, where Abraham was and where Lazarus would some day be. That explains why he came up out of the earth when summoned by Saul and the medium.
    Clyde Herrin's Blog

  • #2
    Or the Medium could have been blowing smoke for Saul, and just made up what she was "seeing." It has never been proven that what Mediums are "seeing" are real, and are not actually just parlor tricks.
    Comment>

    • #3
      Originally posted by Knotical View Post
      Or the Medium could have been blowing smoke for Saul, and just made up what she was "seeing." It has never been proven that what Mediums are "seeing" are real, and are not actually just parlor tricks.
      The medium was frightened when Samuel appeared. I believe this shows that God actually brought Samuel back from the dead and she realized that things weren't going as she had planned.
      Clyde Herrin's Blog
      Comment>

      • #4
        Originally posted by theophilus View Post
        Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” He said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul.” The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.” He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage.
        1 Samuel 28:11-14 ESV


        On another thread in this section someone made the claim that this wasn't really Samuel but an evil spirit impersonating him. He based this on the fact that believers go Paradise when they die and Samuel is pictured coming up out of the earth. Since the thread in which he said this is closed I can't respond to him there but he brought up a point that I feel needs to be addressed.

        The first mention of believers going to Paradise after death is found in Luke 23. One of the criminals being crucified with Jesus acknowledged that Jesus was the Messiah and asked to be remembered when Jesus entered his kingdom. Jesus said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

        Jesus died before the criminal did and by his death he atoned for our sins and opened the way for us to enter Paradise when we die. Before his death this wasn't the case. The Old Testament speaks of all who die, whether they are good or bad, going down to a place called Sheol. In the New Testament this is called Hades. Prior to his death Jesus told a story of a rich man and a beggar named Lazarus who died. Here is part of what he said: "The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side." The rich man was in Hades. Since he could see Abraham and Lazarus they must have been in Hades too, just in a different part. (Some claim this story is a parable, not an account of something that really happened. I have a post in my blog in which I discussed this claim: Lazarus and the rich man – parable or actual event? | clydeherrin )

        It is obvious that Samuel was in Sheol, or Hades, where Abraham was and where Lazarus would some day be. That explains why he came up out of the earth when summoned by Saul and the medium.
        I agree Theo, what you just shared was a point that was redirected away from. On the other hand...

        There are a few references that were touched upon by Orgien yesterday that never made it into the thread (PM). I'm including them because I think they were valuable information. For example, "a god, gods" is Elohim. That's the word that was used. Here's why:
        • 1 Samuel 28:13 The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.”

        The term ʾĕlōhı̂m (pl.: lit., “gods”), translated as “a divine being” (NRSV; NASB; JPS) or “a spirit” (NIV), takes here a plural predicate ʿōlı̂m (“coming up”: part., m.pl.). So, it means “gods” or “divine beings” who are far from being on par with Yahweh. Hence, ʾĕlōhı̂m in this necromantic situation/ [1 Sam, p. 625] context refers to what the woman called “gods,” that is, the spirits of the dead or a “preternatural being”45 like Ugaritic rpim — ilnym and ilm — mtm (KTU 1.6:VI:46–48) or ilu, which refers to the deceased, in the ancient Near Eastern texts.
        From the Net Bible study notes:

        Heb “gods.” The modifying participle (translated “coming up”) is plural, suggesting that underworld spirits are the referent. But in the following verse Saul understands the plural word to refer to a singular being. The reference is to the spirit of Samuel.
        ESV Study Bible:

        A god is literally “gods” with a plural verbal form, so not “God,” which is a plural noun but takes a singular verb. This term is used of the spirits of the dead in ancient Near Eastern texts. The Moabite “gods” may also have been the spirits of the dead (see Num. 25:2; Ps. 106:28). Saul, however, is interested in Samuel as a person and asks about his (singular) appearance. The robe was Samuel’s characteristic garment (1 Sam. 15:27).
        God bless,
        William

        Comment>

        • #5
          Originally posted by Knotical View Post
          Or the Medium could have been blowing smoke for Saul, and just made up what she was "seeing." It has never been proven that what Mediums are "seeing" are real, and are not actually just parlor tricks.
          Just a note, the Medium cried out. She seemingly expressed surprise.

          In the thread we also brought up that Jesus allowed Satan to take Him up top the Temple. No doubt God can use such examples to His advantage. And in 1 Samuel chapter 2, Hannah says, "The Lord kills and brings to life, he brings down to Sheol and raises up". I think this further reinforces what Theo shared.

          The Narrator refers to Samuel, and there's nothing in the text that says anything contrary. As to whether the divination or Mediums are legit, the Scriptures do not say what she did or how she did this. The message there is from silence. Literally, when the Scriptures go silent there is wisdom. The author, I speculate thought it would be disservice to disclose this information to us, them, or anyone else.

          Your thoughts?

          God bless,
          William
          Comment>

          • #6
            Originally posted by theophilus View Post
            [I]It is obvious that Samuel was in Sheol, or Hades, where Abraham was and where Lazarus would some day be. That explains why he came up out of the earth when summoned by Saul and the medium.
            I don't agree, but at least you are using logic....

            Comment>

            • #7
              Originally posted by theophilus View Post
              The medium was frightened when Samuel appeared. I believe this shows that God actually brought Samuel back from the dead and she realized that things weren't going as she had planned.
              1 Sam 28:12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you (Saul) deceived me? You are Saul!”

              13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”

              The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure[a] (a: footnotes: Or see spirits; or see gods) coming up out of the earth.” NIV
              Clearly the medium was afraid of Saul, not Samuel. Seeing Samuel made her realize that it was Saul who had asked her to conjure him up. Saul was the one who was removing "from the land those who were mediums and spiritists" verse 3



              Comment>

              • #8
                I take it we are now going to discuss this topic in this thread. There are severals key point that are important in regard to the event.

                (1) The objection has been raised that God would never use a medium. The text does not say that God did. However God could have allowed it. This is well within God's sovereignty. There are several examples from the Scripture. For example, God use the magi. They were not Jews and in all likelihood astrologers.

                (2) A second object is that the medium was lying because no one can really summon up the dead. The problem with that view is the Scriptures don't say such things are impossible. The Scriptures simply say don't do it. It is wrong.

                (3) There are clues in the text of 1 Sam. which point to it being Samuel.

                a. Three times the writer\narrator refers to Samuel in the text, not the witch, not Saul, but the writer\narrator.

                b. The writer\narrator does not in any way suggest that it was not Samuel even though he could have.

                c. The language fits Samuel.

                The LORD has done to you as he spoke by me, for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day. Moreover, the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me. The LORD will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines.”
                Now compare that to 1 Sam. 15:28:

                And Samuel said to him, “The LORD has torn the kingdom of Israel from you this day and has given it to a neighbor of yours, who is better than you.
                I am sure others can see the similarities but the word "neighbor" stands out as unique.

                d. Samuel's robe appears to be important. The medium describes what she sees as an old man wearing a robe. Wearing a robe in and of itself would not be that important. Lots of people wore robes. Yet there appears to be more to than that.

                In the same passage above, 1 Sam. 15:27, it states: As Samuel turned to go away, Saul seized the skirt of his robe, and it tore.Thus the torn robe become symbolic of the kingdom being torn out of the hands of Saul.

                e. Another objection is that this so-call apparition was a deceiving spirit\demon. Yet this apparition does not deceive Saul but prophesied that Saul would die, his sons would die, and that the Israelite army would be given into the hands of Philistines. No deception there.

                My conclusion is there are excellent reasons to believe it was really Samuel and no good reason to think otherwise.
                Last edited by Origen; 03-24-2017, 10:22 AM.
                Comment>

                • #9
                  Originally posted by William View Post
                  The Narrator refers to Samuel, and there's nothing in the text that says anything contrary.
                  Unless the narrator was presenting Saul's and the medium's point of view. They saw Samuel (or only she saw him...?) IF so, are these to be trusted that it was actually Samuel? No, they were both deceived.

                  That's why God made these prohibitions against necromancy. Those who engage mediums are entering on to Satan's ground. He is the great deceiver.

                  See: What does the Bible say about necromancy?

                  Comment>

                  • #10
                    Originally posted by AndThisGospel View Post
                    Unless the narrator was presenting Saul's and the medium's point of view.
                    Prove it from the text. The text does not make that claim. You do.
                    Comment>

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Origen View Post
                      I take it we are now going to discuss this topic in this thread. There are severals key point that are important in regard to the event.

                      (1) The objection has been raised that God would never use a medium. The text does not say that God did. However God could have allowed it. This is well within God sovereignty. There are several examples from the Scripture. For example, God use the magi. They were not Jews and in all likelihood astrologers.

                      (2) A second object is that the medium was lying because no one can really summon up the dead. The problem with that view is the Scriptures don't say such things are impossible. The Scriptures simply say don't do it. It is wrong.

                      (3) There are clues in the text of 1 Sam. which point to it being Samuel.

                      a. Three times the writer\narrator refers to Samuel in the text, not the witch, not Saul, but the writer\narrator.

                      b. The writer\narrator does not in any way suggest that it was not Samuel even though he could have.

                      c. The language fits Samuel.



                      Now compare that to 1 Sam. 15:28:

                      I am sure others can see the similarities but the word "neighbor" stands out in my mind.

                      d. Samuel's robe appears to be important. The medium describes what sees as an old man wearing a robe. Wearing a robe in and of itself would not be that important. Lots of people wore robes. Yet there appears to be more to than that.

                      In the same passage above, 1 Sam. 15:27, it states: As Samuel turned to go away, Saul seized the skirt of his robe, and it tore.Thus the torn robe become symbolic of the kingdom being torn out of the hands of Saul.

                      e. Another objection is that this so-call apparition was a deceiving spirit\demon. Yet this apparition does not deceive Saul but prophesied that Saul would die, his sons would die, and that Israelite army would be given into the hands of Philistines. No deception there.

                      My conclusion is there are excellent reasons to believe it was really Samuel and no good reason to think otherwise.
                      Speech!!!

                      Click image for larger version

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                      God bless,
                      William
                      Comment>

                      • #12
                        Originally posted by William View Post

                        Speech!!!


                        God bless,
                        William
                        Who me? lol
                        Comment>

                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Origen View Post
                          Who me? lol
                          Still waiting Mr.

                          Any words of wisdom, shout outs or thank yous? Perhaps you want to use this time to bash Trump?

                          God bless,
                          William
                          Comment>

                          • #14
                            Originally posted by William View Post
                            Still waiting Mr.

                            Any words of wisdom, shout outs or thank yous? Perhaps you want to use this time to bash Trump?
                            Trump, no way.

                            Thank God he lead me to learn the languages and to do research using qualified scholars.

                            Comment>

                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Origen View Post
                              Prove it from the text. The text does not make that claim. You do.
                              I have already used Job to illustrate my point....The writer stated that God said Job was blameless/sinless. But clearly Job was not blameless. Yes, he kept God's rules outwardly, but like the Pharisees of old everything he did was "to be seen of men". A man justified by faith alone would never, ever brag that he was without sin. That's a clue right there. See Luke 18:10-14 NIV

                              Your argument would be that the writer quoted God and He said Job was blameless; therefore he was....

                              My argument is that God was presenting Job as Job presented himself to God. See Job 32:2 NASB

                              Again, you have to look at the whole picture, not just one sentence.

                              The OT is very clear on the state of men in death:

                              The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10. "The dead praise not the Lord." Psalms 115:17.

                              The dead cannot contact the living, nor do they know what the living are doing. They are dead. Their thoughts have perished (Psalms 146:4).

                              "So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job 14:12. "The day of the Lord will come ... in the which the heavens shall pass away." 2 Peter 3:10.
                              Last edited by AndThisGospel; 03-23-2017, 09:35 AM. Reason: spelling
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