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BDS and Israel

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  • BDS and Israel

    As stuff with Obama and Israel starts to dominate the news, depending on which side you are on, there are more movements coming out against Israel. Is anyone on here part of a church that does not support Israel? Do you agree with it? If not, then what? BTW, BDS stands for Boycott, Divest, Sanction.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Even So View Post
    Is anyone on here part of a church that does not support Israel?
    My church supports Israel and Judaism.

    Originally posted by Even So View Post
    Do you agree with it? If not, then what?
    I tend to be less enthusiastic in my support than I was when I was young.
    I would never support Islam over Judaism, and I say that Israel has every right to keep the land they captured when all of their Arab neighbors attacked them without warning or provocation. There is no Palestinian people, they are trapped because their Muslim neighbors will not open the borders that they control to supply them or allow them to emigrate. It is a tragedy, but they exist to ferment and perpetrate hatred against the Jews whom nations like Iran have stated they would exterminate immediately if they had the technology to do so.

    Yet salvation has already come from the Jews. Jesus Christ IS the Way, Truth and Light. Those looking to Israel for something great have missed the sign ... that boat already sailed. The Jews who believed in Christ are already Christians. Those who practice modern Judaism are faithful to a dead faith. They are as much in need of salvation as any other unsaved people group. Those who follow Israel seeking the messiah, are allowing the blind to lead the blind.

    So I am not anti-Israel. I am very cautious of anything that confuses a people with The Creator. I suppose as a national policy, I support Israel's right to exist and defend itself free from outside interference and I oppose shedding Christian lives in Middle East Wars. (And I don't think they have asked us to fight for them, just to allow them to defend themselves.)

    Most of them are not Jews, just decedents of Abraham. (Romans 2:28)
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    • #3
      Originally posted by atpollard View Post
      My church supports Israel and Judaism.


      I tend to be less enthusiastic in my support than I was when I was young.
      I would never support Islam over Judaism, and I say that Israel has every right to keep the land they captured when all of their Arab neighbors attacked them without warning or provocation. There is no Palestinian people, they are trapped because their Muslim neighbors will not open the borders that they control to supply them or allow them to emigrate. It is a tragedy, but they exist to ferment and perpetrate hatred against the Jews whom nations like Iran have stated they would exterminate immediately if they had the technology to do so.

      Yet salvation has already come from the Jews. Jesus Christ IS the Way, Truth and Light. Those looking to Israel for something great have missed the sign ... that boat already sailed. The Jews who believed in Christ are already Christians. Those who practice modern Judaism are faithful to a dead faith. They are as much in need of salvation as any other unsaved people group. Those who follow Israel seeking the messiah, are allowing the blind to lead the blind.

      So I am not anti-Israel. I am very cautious of anything that confuses a people with The Creator. I suppose as a national policy, I support Israel's right to exist and defend itself free from outside interference and I oppose shedding Christian lives in Middle East Wars. (And I don't think they have asked us to fight for them, just to allow them to defend themselves.)

      Most of them are not Jews, just decedents of Abraham. (Romans 2:28)
      I pretty much share your sentiments about national Israel. They should from a political point of view receive our support, but not without question. Modern Israel is pretty secular supporting abortion, same sex marriage, blah blah blah... From the perspective of faith, we haven't anything in common other than sharing history. Just a little earlier I was shocked by a meme from CARM suggesting that all Israel would be saved. Wonder whether all Christians need to move to Israel? Who would of thought that some geo-political lines drawn in the sands would determine who the Elect are? Galatians 3:7-8, 16. True Israel is not contained within geo political lines, it is not comprised of only one race, but the Elect are by faith from all Tribes, Tongues, and Nations.

      God bless,
      William
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      • #4
        Originally posted by William View Post
        Just a little earlier I was shocked by a meme from CARM suggesting that all Israel would be saved.
        The Bible tells us that a time is coming when all Israel will be saved.

        Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
        “The Deliverer will come from Zion,
        he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
        “and this will be my covenant with them
        when I take away their sins.”
        (Romans 11:25-27 ESV)


        This doesn't mean Christians need to move to Israel. Before this happens the rapture will have taken place and we will all be living in Heaven. It is the fullness of the Gentiles that will bring about the rapture.
        Clyde Herrin's Blog
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        • #5
          Originally posted by theophilus View Post
          The Bible tells us that a time is coming when all Israel will be saved.

          Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
          “The Deliverer will come from Zion,
          he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
          “and this will be my covenant with them
          when I take away their sins.”
          (Romans 11:25-27 ESV)


          This doesn't mean Christians need to move to Israel. Before this happens the rapture will have taken place and we will all be living in Heaven. It is the fullness of the Gentiles that will bring about the rapture.
          I knew I remembered something about that, and I thought it was in Romans, but I could not remember enough of the exact wording to find it with a search.
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          • #6
            Originally posted by theophilus View Post
            The Bible tells us that a time is coming when all Israel will be saved.

            Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
            “The Deliverer will come from Zion,
            he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
            “and this will be my covenant with them
            when I take away their sins.”
            (Romans 11:25-27 ESV)


            This doesn't mean Christians need to move to Israel. Before this happens the rapture will have taken place and we will all be living in Heaven. It is the fullness of the Gentiles that will bring about the rapture.
            All Israel will be saved in Romans 11:26 speaks in the same manner as Galatians 6:16, the completion of Christ's kingdom is by no means confined to the Jews but includes every tribe tongue and nation (world). The Israel of God is what Paul calls the Church, gathered alike from Jews and Gentiles.

            God bless,
            William
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            • #7
              I went back and reread all of Romans 11 to get a feel for the whole flow of the message and the big picture. I think Romans 11:32 sums it up nicely:

              28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

              Romans 11 seems to be emphasizing a leveling of the playing field by God. In the old days, the Jews had special access to the blessings and the Gentiles simply had no such access. In these New Days, God has cut off those who were Jews by birth, but not chosen by God as a remanent reserved for himself. Likewise, God has chosen from among the Gentiles branches that he will graft on to the same Holy root stretching back to Abraham and the promise of righteousness by faith.

              In context, the branches cut off, the blinded Israel, is just as capable of being chosen for God's mercy as the wild branches (gentiles) ... no more and no less. From the surrounding verses, it seems unlikely that it is speaking of a renewal of an old covenant, but rather a chosen Israel made of the faithful remanent and those current and future Jews and Gentiles that are/will be chosen by God. I, too, had always been taught that the Church would be raptured and the veil would be lifted from the eyes of (biological) Israel, but that does not appear to be what Romans 11 is talking about.

              Check it out for yourself. Read the whole chapter. Show me where I have missed something.
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              • #8
                Originally posted by atpollard View Post
                I, too, had always been taught that the Church would be raptured and the veil would be lifted from the eyes of of (biological) Israel, but that does not appear to be what Romans 11 is talking about.
                I agree, and do not think we disagree on whether the Church will be raptured, though adherents to Rapture Theology and Reformed Amillennialist disagree as to the timing. For example, Matthew 24:22 speaks of the "Elect" and for their sake the calamities "shall be shorted in days", much to what you're conveying regarding the faithful remnant in Isaiah 1:9 and Romans 9:29, the Jews will utterly be destroyed and shall perish, with the exception of the Elect as to honor Isaiah 10:22. So much for all of "national" Israel being saved.

                God bless,
                William
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                • #9
                  atpollard I'd also like to say that what you wrote about the Jews having special or first access is consistent with the conversation between Jesus and the Samaritan woman.

                  Originally posted by atpollard View Post
                  Romans 11 seems to be emphasizing a leveling of the playing field by God. In the old days, the Jews had special access to the blessings and the Gentiles simply had no such access. In these New Days, God has cut off those who were Jews by birth, but not chosen by God as a remanent reserved for himself. Likewise, God has chosen from among the Gentiles branches that he will graft on to the same Holy root stretching back to Abraham and the promise of righteousness by faith.
                  Jesus said, salvation is from the Jews, but as we know from John chapter 1 his own people rejected Him. The Samaritan woman (a gentile) at this point was obviously Elect, and many that heard her, in all her enthusiasm about a man that knew all she had done... and asking whether this is the "messiah" came to Jesus, and after hearing Him for themselves believed on Him. The gentiles being grafted in began "now" as further emphasized from that conversation, as Jesus said the time for the harvest is now, "lift up your eyes", as it is stated that if Christ be lifted up He will draw all men to Himself John 12:32. Lastly, many people think that Paul first ministered to the Gentiles, but we have to remember this occurred before then, and so did Peter converting Cornelius. My point being is that this "grafting" has been going on for some two thousand years, and its emphasis should always be "now", and not towards some future event surrounding the Jewish nation of Israel which people look towards day in and day out in the news for the "signs". Some of these rapture theologians are worse than evolutionary theist that require science to interpret Scripture as though without news surrounding geopolitical Israel Eschatology cannot be understood.

                  As you stated atpollard, the faithful remnant have always been preserved by God throughout history. The True Israel, the (C)hurch stretches back before the days of Acts but existed in the OT in types and shadows. This is why Covenant Theology naturally follows Calvinism and then Amill which are all complementary and logically coherent. They fit together so well systematically.

                  Interesting point I just noticed, the woman asks Jesus how can you ask me for a drink (because he was a Jew)? I believe that is answered in 42 when the Samaritans say because we know that this man is really the Savior of the World. Christ is the savior of the Jews and the Gentiles, and that is not confined to national or Jewish Israel but includes every tribe tongue and nation. The meek shall inherit the earth, the covenant promise (land) to Abraham's descendants were expanded in the NT Covenant.

                  God bless,
                  William

                  Reference:

                  4 Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John— 2 although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples. 3 So he left Judea and went back once more to Galilee.
                  4 Now he had to go through Samaria. 5 So he came to a town in Samaria called Sychar, near the plot of ground Jacob had given to his son Joseph. 6 Jacob’s well was there, and Jesus, tired as he was from the journey, sat down by the well. It was about noon.
                  7 When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, “Will you give me a drink?” 8 (His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.)
                  9 The Samaritan woman said to him, “You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?” (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.[a])
                  10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.”
                  11 “Sir,” the woman said, “you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12 Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his livestock?”
                  13 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
                  15 The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water so that I won’t get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water.”
                  16 He told her, “Go, call your husband and come back.”
                  17 “I have no husband,” she replied.
                  Jesus said to her, “You are right when you say you have no husband. 18 The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true.”
                  19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”
                  21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
                  25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”
                  26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”
                  The Disciples Rejoin Jesus
                  27 Just then his disciples returned and were surprised to find him talking with a woman. But no one asked, “What do you want?” or “Why are you talking with her?”
                  28 Then, leaving her water jar, the woman went back to the town and said to the people, 29 “Come, see a man who told me everything I ever did. Could this be the Messiah?” 30 They came out of the town and made their way toward him.
                  31 Meanwhile his disciples urged him, “Rabbi, eat something.”
                  32 But he said to them, “I have food to eat that you know nothing about.”
                  33 Then his disciples said to each other, “Could someone have brought him food?”
                  34 “My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. 35 Don’t you have a saying, ‘It’s still four months until harvest’? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. 36 Even now the one who reaps draws a wage and harvests a crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad together. 37 Thus the saying ‘One sows and another reaps’ is true. 38 I sent you to reap what you have not worked for. Others have done the hard work, and you have reaped the benefits of their labor.”
                  Many Samaritans Believe
                  39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.
                  42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by atpollard View Post
                    In context, the branches cut off, the blinded Israel, is just as capable of being chosen for God's mercy as the wild branches (gentiles) ... no more and no less. From the surrounding verses, it seems unlikely that it is speaking of a renewal of an old covenant, but rather a chosen Israel made of the faithful remanent and those current and future Jews and Gentiles that are/will be chosen by God. I, too, had always been taught that the Church would be raptured and the veil would be lifted from the eyes of (biological) Israel, but that does not appear to be what Romans 11 is talking about.
                    I think you have hit the nail on the head.

                    In Romans 25:28 Paul states: "For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical." This makes clear that being ethnically Israel really is not important. He also says: "For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring..." (Rom. 9:6-7). How much clearer could Paul be. Being a physical descended does necessarily make you children of Abraham.

                    In Galatians 3:7...

                    Paul states: "Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham." Thus it is not about being ethnic Israel but those who are of faith, Jew or Gentile. They are the children of Abraham. Paul says we are heirs: "The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him" (Rom. 8:16). It all is clear as daylight. "And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise (Gal. 3:29)." Note that the promise was given to who? Abraham!
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                    • #11
                      So really, being grafted in has been going on for like, ever. For those who have had the faith in GOD and His Son. And the end are we the church residing in the new Israel for the Millennial Reign?
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Even So View Post
                        So really, being grafted in has been going on for like, ever. For those who have had the faith in GOD and His Son. And the end are we the church residing in the new Israel for the Millennial Reign?
                        I'm sure a comprehensive study of the Old Testament would reveal quite a few Gentiles being saved by Faith. Some examples come to mind in the book of Ruth or in the case of Rahab.

                        God bless,
                        William

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                        • #13
                          ... and Joseph had Egyptian wives that formed part of the Tribes of Israel.
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Even So View Post
                            So really, being grafted in has been going on for like, ever. For those who have had the faith in GOD and His Son. And the end are we the church residing in the new Israel for the Millennial Reign?
                            If I remember correctly, the Rulers in the Millenial Reign are a very specific group, was it not 12,000 celibate males from each of the 12 tribes who were faithful to Jesus through the Great Tribulation? That always sounded like a reference to ethnic Israel rather than spiritual Israel, but Revelation is so darn full of symbolic imagery that it is hard to know if any of it is meant to be taken literally.
                            Comment>

                            • #15
                              Originally posted by atpollard View Post

                              If I remember correctly, the Rulers in the Millenial Reign are a very specific group, was it not 12,000 celibate males from each of the 12 tribes who were faithful to Jesus through the Great Tribulation? That always sounded like a reference to ethnic Israel rather than spiritual Israel, but Revelation is so darn full of symbolic imagery that it is hard to know if any of it is meant to be taken literally.
                              I never heard that. I know they can't be harmed so it makes sense. If they are rulers, what do you spose we will be doing?
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