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Hidden Manna

The prophecy of the falling away from the faith

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We are warned in 1 Timothy 4:1 “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;” Also in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”

 

The falling away from the faith above mentioned by Paul has to do with the saints of God being overcome by all the lies and deception of the Devil by way of his spirit, which is the spirit of a lie. This spirit of a lie is also shown as the false prophet spirit which works in many deceivers. As many false prophets and teachers were foretold to come into the world like a swarm of locusts from hell and darken the Light of the Truth in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

Paul was playing off the words of Jesus when he referred to “that man” and “son of perdition” in the above verse. But this is not to be misunderstood as a being single individual man yet to come in the future like Judas, but rather it speaks of the sin nature of man (mystery of iniquity) being raised back up again in the world and embraced. These seducing spirits and doctrines of devils would enter into the man-made church system as well, thereby causing many to play the Harlot with the ways of the world, and thereby making them desolate of good works and naked by sin.

 

Notice how Jesus refers to a whole wicked generation as “a man” and “ that man” (like Paul said) here in Matthew 12:43-45 “When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.”

 

Now notice the wording Jesus used showing the “last state of that man” referring to a whole wicked generation compared to Peters concerning this same falling away in 2 Peter 2:20-22 “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.”

 

Many of the saints being overcome is also shown here in Revelation 13:7 “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.” So this spirit of deception and lies would also overcome many of the saints as is also confirmed here in Daniel 7:21 “I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;” That horn is the tail of the red Dragon, which speaks of the spirit of a lie working in all the false prophets of the world. This spirit of a lie was foretold to practice and prosper in the world and also cast the truth and also some of the host of heaven to the ground.

 

So was Paul talking about a single man in 2 Thess. or a single evil spirit and also other seducing spirits working in a whole wicked generation like Jesus said? Well if you read the whole chapter in 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 you will see this truth is shown…“And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

 

Clearly Paul was talking about more than one single individual man in the above verses using words like them, they, and they all. Jesus also confirms there would be many deceivers practicing lying wonders and great signs in Matthew 24:24 “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Mark 13:22 “For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.”

 

But what about the term “son of perdition?” It speaks of the same thing, as was first shown in Judas (one who broke bread at the Lords table) who also sold out the Truth for a pocket full of silver. Just as the firstborn Esau sold his birth right inheritance for some red pottage.(sin) Look at what Peter had to say about the “son of perdition.”

Peter goes on to quote scripture concerning Judas, (son of perdition) in the Psalms Acts 1:20 “For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.” Now, in order to confirm my point about there being more than one “son of perdition” or son who goes into destruction, let’s look at the Psalms from where Peter was drawing this from.

 

In Psalm 69 we see this same language used in Psalm 69:25 “Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.” Notice the Psalm says “their” as in more than one. As a matter of fact, if you read the whole Psalm the Lord is speaking of many, like in verse 4 the Lord says “they that hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of mine head”. The Lord repeatedly uses the words “they their, and them”, in the Psalm just as Paul also used the same language in 2 Thess 2:10-12 describing the man of sin, (lawlessness) and son of perdition.

Now let’s confirm the same message in another Psalm which speaks of what Peter quoted also in Psalm 109:8 “Let his days be few; and let another take his office.”

 

Now that sounds more like what Peter was quoting from when he said in Acts 1:20 “Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take” Which this does speak specifically about the single man Judas. (Which has already been fulfilled as Jesus noted in John 17:12.)

But let’s now look at that Psalm in the greater context of what is being said.

 

Psalm 109:1-13 “Hold not thy peace, O God of my praise; 2 For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful are opened against me: they have spoken against me with a lying tongue. 3 They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause.4 For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer.5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.9 Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.10 Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.11 Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour.12 Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children.13 Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.”

 

So though him was referring to the single man Judas in this Psalm, as both Jesus and Peter confirmed; I believe it is very clear that Paul was not talking about a single man yet to come, but rather a whole wicked generation who would fall away from following after the Truth in Christ, and also go into destruction.

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More verses confirming the possibility and prophecy of the falling away from the faith….

 

1 Timothy 4:1 “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Matthew 7:26-27 “And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”

Matthew 15:14 “Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.”

 

Luke 6:39 “And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

1 Corinthians 10:12 “Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

1 Timothy 3:6 “Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

1 Timothy 3:7 “Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

 

1 Timothy 6:9 “But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.”

Hebrews 4:11 “Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.”

 

Hebrews 6:4-8 “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.”

 

Hebrews 10:38 “Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.”

Acts 7:38-39 “ This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,”

 

Luke 9:62 “And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”

 

Luke 17:32-33 “Remember Lot's wife.33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.”

Genesis 19:26 “But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.”

 

Luke 8:13 “They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.”

2 Peter 1:10 “Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

2 Peter 3:17 “Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.”

Revelation 2:5 “Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.”

 

Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Ezekiel 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

 

Ezekiel 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.

Ezekiel 33:18 “When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.”

 

Abide in the faith, abide in Righteousness, and abide in the Word of God; which is in Jesus Christ. Peace and God bless

 

 

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I fail to see the purpose for Paul giving such a vague warning to the people such as "the sin nature of man (mystery of iniquity) being raised back up again in the world and embraced." The true purpose is in the details, which Paul could not express clearly because, like John writing the book of Revelation, he was in the midst of the Roman world and facing intense persecution. That is why he told them when he was with them in person (2 Thess. 2:5).

 

One good hint as to what this power is (the son of perdition) is in 2 Thess. 2:4-7 "who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God...And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way."

 

As you mentioned, this is in line with Daniel 7:20-21 and Revelation 13:7, where a small horn came up and uprooted 3 horns that were of the 10. The horns are kings/kingdoms (verse 24), and the 10 horns are the 10 kingdoms that the kingdom of Rome dissolved into (also the 10 toes of the iron legs, see Dan. 2). We know from history that the Papacy power is that little horn that uprooted 3 kingdoms (Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths) in order to be receive its power from the dragon (Rev. 13:2). It is the Papacy that fits the description of all these parallel prophecies, and is the one who would be revealed when the Roman power was taken out of the way. The Papacy is the one who opposes God and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God (people are the spiritual temples, 1 Cor. 3:16). You can also check the validity of the time prophecy shown as 42 months/1,260 days/time and times and the dividing of time (Rev. 13:5, Dan. 7:25, Rev. 12:6). Since a day in prophecy equals a year (Ezek. 4:4-6), we have a time period of 1,260 years which was the reign of the Papacy from 538 A.D. to 1798 A.D., exactly as the Bible predicted.

 

It's important to know the accuracy of God's prophecies and how He lovingly gives us such details that will warn us to not be swept away by the current of false teachings and false prophets. The details written by Paul also tell us that the Papacy would rise as the man of sin and still be a dominant power of religious confusion (Babylon) in the end time, because only Christ will overthrow him and destroy him with the brightness of His coming. We must not fall for the lies of the Roman Catholic church that teach salvation by works and many other doctrines that are contrary to the teachings of Christ.

 

It's also interesting to see that Judas, the son of perdition, was a part of Jesus' disciples and became a traitor, just as the Roman Catholic church came about by those within the church who fell away from the faith and are revealed to be traitors by the fruit they produce, selling the Lord Jesus for luxuries and indulgences. God bless!

 

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-deception_Great_Controversy_darkness_pope

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If anyone is interested, this video gives some great insight into the details of the Papacy being the fulfillment of the man of sin (antichrist), and how all the reformers were united on this point: https://amazingdiscoveries.tv/media/588/931-the-twin-pillars-of-the-reformation/

 

Have a great new year's day!

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There is one perspective that sees the Protestant rebellion as the great falling away. Look at the division of the denominalism phenomena and all the conflicted doctrines all gleaned from the same Bible. All of these traditions of men sprang from the Protestant rebellion, each teaching his own interpretations of scripture. Not just in rebellion against the Catholic Church but amongst themselves the confliction ever widens.

What is sound doctrine in Protestantism? The Bible is the source of their division, for each doctrine one protesting denomination interprets from scripture, another will interpret the opposite.

The Bible predicted the doctrinal dogs breakfast of confliction that is perfectly manifest in Protestantism.

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I am going to add this study into this thread, as it has to do with the spirit that is seated in the Temple of God.

 

Sitting in the seat of God

 

We read in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 “Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.”

 

Paul here is talking about the man of sin being revealed, the son who will go into destruction, who has “that Wickedspirit working in him. Many believe this to be a single evil man figure that is yet to come, but Paul clearly mentions this spirit working in many, and it “the mystery of iniquity already working”

 

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 “ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (all unrighteousness is sin)

 

Notice again, in them, they, them, they all is speaking about more than one man, but many.

 

But what about sitting in the Temple of God? I believe Paul was speaking in a mystery when he said this, as he was also playing off of other parts of scripture in order to do this. In Ezekiel 28:2 we read “Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:”

 

The Lord later goes on to say to this “man” in verse 13 “ Thou hast been in the garden of God;” Now we know the Prince of Tyrus was not in the garden of God, but man (Adam) was. But the Lord later goes on to call this man the “covering cherub.” So the message here is in two parts, both physical and spiritual.

 

The Lord is not just speaking to the prince of Tyrus alone here, but also to the spirit of “that Wicked” which entered into man (Adam) when sin entered into man. (man of sin)

 

So when you understand the spirit and the sin nature of the devil is working in the heart of man, then we can begin to see what Paul was saying about this “man of sinsitting in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God”.

 

Paul also gave us clue to confirm this message in 1 Corinthians 6:19 “What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

 

So our bodies are that temple God created for Himself to dwell in by His Spirit, but “that Wickedspirit entered in, when sin entered into man = “man of sin

 

And Paul goes on to say in 1 Corinthians 3:17 “If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.”

 

Our heart is like the seat of authority for God to dwell in the Temple of our bodies. Jesus said in Matthew 15:18 “But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.” (=defiling the Temple of God)

 

So whosoever has “that Wicked” spirit dwelling in them, (the temple of God) him shall God also destroy. (=son of perdition) or son who goes into destruction.

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I fail to see the purpose for Paul giving such a vague warning to the people such as "the sin nature of man (mystery of iniquity) being raised back up again in the world and embraced." The true purpose is in the details, which Paul could not express clearly because, like John writing the book of Revelation, he was in the midst of the Roman world and facing intense persecution. That is why he told them when he was with them in person (2 Thess. 2:5).

 

One good hint as to what this power is (the son of perdition) is in 2 Thess. 2:4-7 "who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God...And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way."

 

As you mentioned, this is in line with Daniel 7:20-21 and Revelation 13:7, where a small horn came up and uprooted 3 horns that were of the 10. The horns are kings/kingdoms (verse 24), and the 10 horns are the 10 kingdoms that the kingdom of Rome dissolved into (also the 10 toes of the iron legs, see Dan. 2). We know from history that the Papacy power is that little horn that uprooted 3 kingdoms (Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths) in order to be receive its power from the dragon (Rev. 13:2). It is the Papacy that fits the description of all these parallel prophecies, and is the one who would be revealed when the Roman power was taken out of the way. The Papacy is the one who opposes God and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God (people are the spiritual temples, 1 Cor. 3:16). You can also check the validity of the time prophecy shown as 42 months/1,260 days/time and times and the dividing of time (Rev. 13:5, Dan. 7:25, Rev. 12:6). Since a day in prophecy equals a year (Ezek. 4:4-6), we have a time period of 1,260 years which was the reign of the Papacy from 538 A.D. to 1798 A.D., exactly as the Bible predicted.

 

It's important to know the accuracy of God's prophecies and how He lovingly gives us such details that will warn us to not be swept away by the current of false teachings and false prophets. The details written by Paul also tell us that the Papacy would rise as the man of sin and still be a dominant power of religious confusion (Babylon) in the end time, because only Christ will overthrow him and destroy him with the brightness of His coming. We must not fall for the lies of the Roman Catholic church that teach salvation by works and many other doctrines that are contrary to the teachings of Christ.

 

It's also interesting to see that Judas, the son of perdition, was a part of Jesus' disciples and became a traitor, just as the Roman Catholic church came about by those within the church who fell away from the faith and are revealed to be traitors by the fruit they produce, selling the Lord Jesus for luxuries and indulgences. God bless!

 

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-dece..._darkness_pope

 

While I agree the Papacy and the RCC has a lot of false doctrine, Paul said the mystery of iniquity was already at work, so this predates the formation of the RCC. Also the spirit of antichrist was already around before the RCC was formed, as the apostles also confirmed this as well. Think about it, in order for the Jews to reject Jesus as the Christ they had to have that spirit of antichrist already working in them. The body of the beast is like the synagogue of Satan and is made up of the children of the flesh who are still in the old man sin nature in the first man Adam. Whereas the body of Christ is made up of those who are born again of God's Spirit, just as it is written, for as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

 

You basically have a false tabernacle system, and a true Tabernacle system in the spiritual sense. Just as you have an earthly Jerusalem and a heavenly Jerusalem. So there is also a true Israel and a false Israel. Just as Jesus said, those who say they are Jews, and do lie, they are the Synagogue of Satan. So there is a true Jew according to the Spirit, and there is a false Jew, but not according to the flesh. Like Paul said a Jew is one who is inward according to the Spirit and not outward according to the flesh. So that is main division and enmity shown in scripture between the 2 seeds and ever since Cain and Abel; this enmity is between the children of the flesh and the children of the Spirit.

 

Now I'm glad to see you don't believe that the 42 months is to be taken literally and at face value, as I also believe by scripture it has to be a sign of time. When you put all the pieces together you will see that this time of 42 months,1,260 days, and a time, times and half a time is in connection with the first tribulation period beginning after the destruction of the Temple in 70 ad, and this first tribulation period pertains first to the Jews. But this time period also includes and runs all the way to the fullness of the Gentiles, as explained by Jesus in Luke's account and by Paul. So I disagree that this sign of time only ran from 538 to 1798 because the Gentile period began at Pentecost and the fullness of the Gentiles is not yet complete, or else ungodliness would have already been removed from Jacob, and the Deliverer would have already come roaring out of Heaven.

 

I have several studies written on these many topics which piece things together by scripture, so maybe I will post some of those in the future. But here is "that Wicked" spirit and Prince that shall be consumed by the brightness of the Lords coming when He makes a full end of sin in Jacob.

 

 

Ezekiel 21:25 "And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end,"

 

When the True Prince and Kingdom of Israel comes, the false shall be put away. Peace

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There is one perspective that sees the Protestant rebellion as the great falling away. Look at the division of the denominalism phenomena and all the conflicted doctrines all gleaned from the same Bible. All of these traditions of men sprang from the Protestant rebellion, each teaching his own interpretations of scripture. Not just in rebellion against the Catholic Church but amongst themselves the confliction ever widens.

What is sound doctrine in Protestantism? The Bible is the source of their division, for each doctrine one protesting denomination interprets from scripture, another will interpret the opposite.

The Bible predicted the doctrinal dogs breakfast of confliction that is perfectly manifest in Protestantism.

 

Matto; I understand your faithfulness to the Roman Catholic Church. I give you respect and kindness in my post's to you. However when you make a post in a Protestant forum like the one you are in, that says "the Protestant rebellion as the great falling away", dear Matto I find that offensive.

 

I have gently and tenderly avoided taking you to task on your Roman Catholic Theology and Doctrines. I will continue to demonstrate decorum and respect. But my dear friend the Roman Catholic Church has a one sided view of many things we Protestants completely disagree with. This goes back when Martin Luther posted his thesis on the Wickenburg door in 1517. The Roman Catholic Church was been brutal, in demanding payment from those it held captive, to support the building of the Church in Rome. The Pope used "Indulgences", which is totally unbibical, to raise funds to build the Roman Catholic kingdom. If you so desire to call it a Great falling away, that would really not fit within Scripture at all. John 14:6 "Jesus said to him "I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one comes to the father but through Me." There is no way to sell Salvation.

 

My dear Matto, and I mean that sincerely; The same reasons the Martin Luther posted back then for leaving the Roman Catholic Church still remains today. I am a still protesting against the Roman Catholic Church and its unbiblical Theology and Doctrine. For instance; Purgatory is not any where in Scripture. Hebrews 9:27 says after death comes the judgement. There is no way to rescue someone who has rejected Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior; Praying to the Saints, we are not told to to this, we pray to the Father through Jesus Christ and this way only. In Matthew 6:9 Jesus gave an example prayer, stating "Our Father" not dear saint Peter or even Mary.; Mary was a very special woman, the very best woman the Father could find in all human history up to then for the Holy Spirit to place Jesus Christ in her womb Luke 1:35 where the Holy Spirit came upon Mary. Mary was fully human, she has a sin nature, just as we do, or Jesus Christ could not have been the God Man. Mary as recorded in several places had other children with Joseph her husband after Jesus Christ was born. John 7:5 is where Jesus's brothers did not believe in Him, and in Acts 1:14 there it says Mary and His brothers were there with the Disciples devoting themselves to prayer. The Bible says Jesus is the mediator between God and man, no place in Scripture does it tell us to go to a Roman Catholic priest to confess our sins and he can grant forgiveness. In Matthew 16:18 Jesus is the Rock and upon Him we we build the church. In 1 Peter 2:4-6 there peter says Jesus is the cornerstone, the very Foundation of the Church. Jesus Christ is the "Rock". Peter is not the person we build upon. In Ephesians 2:20-21, "having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, whom the whole building, being fitted together into a holy temple in the Lord."

 

I sincerely hope you will prayerfully consider the Scriptures I have posted, against what the Roman Catholic Churches Traditions, Theology and Doctrine teach. So many unbibical teachings is the reason we still protest against the Roman Catholic Church, from 1517, until the Lord returns. I pray for peace and the Love of Jesus Christ.

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It seems to me that the "great falling away" is those who started out in the flesh (the law) went to Grace, and then turned, fell from Grace by going back under the law Galatians 5:4, back to the law. They left their first love Revelation 2:4, and went back under the law. Hebrews 10:38 also is on point with this line of thinking. The Just (the justified, the righteous, the redeemed) shall live by faith, and if they TURN BACK (back to what, if not the law), my soul will have NO PLEASURE (WITHOUT FAITH IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE THE LORD) in Him.

 

and BTW, this falling from faith back to the law, has been happening for a long time. Now it's to the point that those who are doing it are justifyig themselves, and condemning those of us who don't. But as Galatians 4:29 says, those born after the flesh will percesute those born after the spirit. Isn't that Awesome?

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"Matto; I understand your faithfulness to the Roman Catholic Church. I give you respect and kindness in my post's to you. However when you make a post in a Protestant forum like the one you are in, that says "the Protestant rebellion as the great falling away", dear Matto I find that offensive."

 

I apologise mate, it was one of my first posts before I knew the rules. It's just another perspective. I've been reading Calvin a lot recently and William prepared me for some cutting anti catholic wordage from him. I take it with a grain of salt, while trying to understand his perspective, it's hard going. At the moment, I don't see Calvin as a nice guy personally, the more I read the less I like his personality. Anyone else have this issue with Calvin?

 

Blessings mate.

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The warnings of falling away are for the false converts and to warn the true believers that there will be wolves among the sheep. Not that the true believers will turn and walk away from the faith.

​​​​​​

John 10:28 And I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall anyone snatch them from my hand.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

If no one can snacth snatch us out of Christ hand then how can we be seduced by spirits?

 

Here's another verse I think could shed some light. 2 Peter 2:20-22 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world though the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and not overcome, the latter end is worse with them than in the beginning. For it had been better not to have known the way of righteousness, than after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

But it is happened unto them according to the truth of the proverb. The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

​​​​​​​Pay close attention to the "if" and the "but" there.

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The warnings of falling away are for the false converts and to warn the true believers that there will be wolves among the sheep. Not that the true believers will turn and walk away from the faith.

​​​​​​

John 10:28 And I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall anyone snatch them from my hand.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

If no one can snacth snatch us out of Christ hand then how can we be seduced by spirits?

 

Here's another verse I think could shed some light. 2 Peter 2:20-22 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world though the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and not overcome, the latter end is worse with them than in the beginning. For it had been better not to have known the way of righteousness, than after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

But it is happened unto them according to the truth of the proverb. The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

​​​​​​​Pay close attention to the "if" and the "but" there.

Yes, but again, it seems that the doctrines of demons, returning to it's vomit, and having known the way of righteousness (which is only by faith in Christ) and turning from it, is turning from Grace to going back under the law: a works based righteousness. So many Christians today don't believe that faith is enough to save, the feel they must DO something. They don't believe that "faith without works is dead," they believe faith without works will send you to Hell.

 

Faith is what saves us. BY GRACE THRU FAITH, what Christ did. His obedience not ours. The righteous will live By faith (which we are righteous only by faith in Christ), and if they shall turn back ( to the law), my soul will have NO PLEASURE ( WITHOUT faith it is impossible to please God) in them.

 

We fall from Grace by trying to be justified by the law Galatians 5:4 The mercy seat is the lid, the cover for the arc of the covenant. The arc held , among other things, the 10 Commandments inside. The mercy seat, with the two angels at either end just like they saw at Jesus' empty tomb, is higher than the law which was inside. You can't get to the law unless you remove the mercy seat.

 

But so many Christiasns are doing that: falling from the mercy seat to get back at the law. They have left their "First Love " Revelation 2:4 and that is what they need to REPENT of. What Christ did on our behalf at the Cross is enough to cover all our sins. Just believe.

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The warnings of falling away are for the false converts and to warn the true believers that there will be wolves among the sheep. Not that the true believers will turn and walk away from the faith.

​​​​​​

John 10:28 And I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall anyone snatch them from my hand.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

If no one can snacth snatch us out of Christ hand then how can we be seduced by spirits?

 

Here's another verse I think could shed some light. 2 Peter 2:20-22 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world though the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and not overcome, the latter end is worse with them than in the beginning. For it had been better not to have known the way of righteousness, than after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

But it is happened unto them according to the truth of the proverb. The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

​​​​​​​Pay close attention to the "if" and the "but" there.

Ok, but the reason I said to pay close attention to the "if" and the "but" is because the verses are telling us that if they did actually know the truth, but they don't, they are dogs returning to their vomit.

 

It is by faith alone, but faith is not alone. Faith is accopaned with works. Even the devil and demons believe and tremble.

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Then what is "their vomit" and what is "the truth" that they knew? Their vomit is the law, the 10 commandments. The truth they knew is grace, they turn by going back to the law. Grace saves, the 10 Commandments kill.

 

or, as Jesus put it, they mix the two covenants like mixing new wine into old wineskins or mixing cold and hot getting lukewarm. Either way, you end up with nothing.

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It is by faith alone and yes, faith is not alone. The trouble is when people know their faith should have works, so they focus more on the works than the faith. It' God who works IN us to do His will and His good pleasure. But it has zero to do with having eternal life. When a person has eternal life, they will have works. Even their faith in Christ is works.

 

we all act out what we believe in our hearts. Yes, sometimes we do act out of character but people can always tell what we believe by the way we live our lives. If we believe we are unclean, we will act like we are unclean. If we believe we are Royalty, we will act like we are Royalty. Our works show what we believe in our hearts, even if what we believe isn't true.

 

The trouble is they BELIEVE they need works to justify them. But if they believed He has already justified them, they would then do the works He put in them thinking it's

No big deal. The works they do, because He has not put it in them (even if it's a great deed they did), they consider that a huge deal, and cant wait till someone finds out about it. But when He works in us and thru us, it is not even worthy of note in our own minds.

 

Not sure I am getting that point across or not, but it's not our works but His works that He does in and thru us. It could be a simple prayer for someone. It could be letting someone in front of you in traffic. It could be saying no to cheating on your taxes. Or giving an extra 5 dollar tip to bad waiter. Sometimes we do not even know why we do what we did, and that is because He did it, not me.

 

 

BTW, So what if the devils believe? They can't get saved. If they had good works and believe, do you think they'd get saved? No. Because Jesus didn' come in their likeness, He came as a man, as a son of man. To save man.

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Then what is "their vomit" and what is "the truth" that they knew? Their vomit is the law, the 10 commandments. The truth they knew is grace, they turn by going back to the law. Grace saves, the 10 Commandments kill.

 

or, as Jesus put it, they mix the two covenants like mixing new wine into old wineskins or mixing cold and hot getting lukewarm. Either way, you end up with nothing.

They didn't know the truth, that the point I'm making with Scripture.

2 Peter 2:20 says "for if" followed by 2 Peter 2:22 which says, "but"

You read what their vomit is in 2 Peter 2:13-16, their vomit is sins, such as adultery.

To further show that didn't know the truth and were not real believers, 2 Peter 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds carried away with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

 

Yes, salvation by works is a false Gospel, we agree on that.

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It is by faith alone and yes, faith is not alone. The trouble is when people know their faith should have works, so they focus more on the works than the faith. It' God who works IN us to do His will and His good pleasure. But it has zero to do with having eternal life. When a person has eternal life, they will have works. Even their faith in Christ is works.

 

we all act out what we believe in our hearts. Yes, sometimes we do act out of character but people can always tell what we believe by the way we live our lives. If we believe we are unclean, we will act like we are unclean. If we believe we are Royalty, we will act like we are Royalty. Our works show what we believe in our hearts, even if what we believe isn't true.

 

The trouble is they BELIEVE they need works to justify them. But if they believed He has already justified them, they would then do the works He put in them thinking it's

No big deal. The works they do, because He has not put it in them (even if it's a great deed they did), they consider that a huge deal, and cant wait till someone finds out about it. But when He works in us and thru us, it is not even worthy of note in our own minds.

 

Not sure I am getting that point across or not, but it's not our works but His works that He does in and thru us. It could be a simple prayer for someone. It could be letting someone in front of you in traffic. It could be saying no to cheating on your taxes. Or giving an extra 5 dollar tip to bad waiter. Sometimes we do not even know why we do what we did, and that is because He did it, not me.

 

 

BTW, So what if the devils believe? They can't get saved. If they had good works and believe, do you think they'd get saved? No. Because Jesus didn' come in their likeness, He came as a man, as a son of man. To save man.

My argument that the devil believes and trembles is not from me, but from Scripture, James 2:19 Thou beliviest in one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

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Yes but James was not using the argument the same as you are. You are saying believing in Christ without works is dead. James is not talking about being justified before God, but before man. Show ME your faith without your works, and I will SHOW YOU my faith by my works.

 

Romans 4:2, if Abraham were justified by works, He had reason to glory, BUT NOT BEFORE GOD.

 

 

Mathew 5:16 let your light so shine before men that they shall see your good works and glorify you Father in Heaven.

 

it is God who works IN and thru us to do His good will.

 

You can have good works without faith, but you can not have faith in Christ as Lord and savior and redeemer without having good works. It is not going to happen. If nothing else, faith in Christ is good works John 6:29.

 

too many Christians are trying too hard to have good works instead of letting God work thru them. That is why it is very laborous to enter into the rest of knowing that faith is enough. God said He will change you to be like Jesus. Trying to change ourselves is just being selfrighteous and unbelieving. Kind of like what Abraham and Hagar were all about. See Galatians 4:21 thru 31. We are the Children of promise ,s simply by believing in Christ, as a promise God made to Abraham. That is in Galatians 3, and it regardless of our works.

 

BTW, James was a minister to the Jews who WERE under the law. The law was all they'd ever known. The whole idea of faith without works was new to them. Teaching them is different than Paul teaching the gentiles. Re different mindsets.

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Ransol, what group are you talking about. I know of no major groups of Christians that believe they are justified by keeping the law. I know of some groups that believe we are saved by grace, but keep the commandments of God out of reverence. The son of perdition was the devil getting into Christianity with a false religion that mimics the true faith. This was happening during the Apostles' time with the Gnostic's doctrine. When Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea, the devil was present and pretty much took over Christianity. The Pope is the only one that sits in a temple and claims he fully represents Christ. the SDA may have missed the boat on much of their prophecy, but they called the antichrist right.:RpS_thumbup:

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Ransol, what group are you talking about. I know of no major groups of Christians that believe they are justified by keeping the law. I know of some groups that believe we are saved by grace, but keep the commandments of God out of reverence. The son of perdition was the devil getting into Christianity with a false religion that mimics the true faith. This was happening during the Apostles' time with the Gnostic's doctrine. When Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea, the devil was present and pretty much took over Christianity. The Pope is the only one that sits in a temple and claims he fully represents Christ. the SDA may have missed the boat on much of their prophecy, but they called the antichrist right.:RpS_thumbup:

 

It's not a group of Christians, they're everywhere. They're in my church, they're in your church. Everywhere Christians are struggling with the law and they can't quit. They have tried, but they are powerless in their flesh. Porn, lust, anger, pride, you name it. It is everywhere. It is because they are walking in the flesh and not in the spirit.

 

maybe these are not justifid by the law, but they do believe keeping the law is going to please God, not realizing He is already pleased with them. He is not angry at their sin any more.

 

I have talked to a few people on this sight that have pointed out that Grace is a license to sin. But GRACE is the Gospel Galatians 1:6.

 

my only point is that many Christians do not know how to separate the two covenants. Thus, they don't know how to divide the word of Truth between the two covenants.

 

I'm trying really hard not to name names here.

 

Remember Mathew 7:21-23 ? Not everyone who says to me Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom of my Father.... They use this verse to say that faith alone will not save. It's as if they have NEVER even read the passage.

 

They also throw at me, Even the devils believe.

 

Have they never read and understood what lukewarm is all about? It about them.

 

Oh, trust me, they are everywhere. I have no doubt they are saved, and truly love God and want to please Him. But they are going about it the wrong way.

 

I really am trying to help them find that rest.

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Are they really saved Ransol? If they think that keeping the law will save them, that is not saved. That is deceived. :RpS_thumbdn:

 

 

 

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Yes but James was not using the argument the same as you are. You are saying believing in Christ without works is dead. James is not talking about being justified before God, but before man. Show ME your faith without your works, and I will SHOW YOU my faith by my works.

 

Romans 4:2, if Abraham were justified by works, He had reason to glory, BUT NOT BEFORE GOD.

 

 

Mathew 5:16 let your light so shine before men that they shall see your good works and glorify you Father in Heaven.

 

it is God who works IN and thru us to do His good will.

 

You can have good works without faith, but you can not have faith in Christ as Lord and savior and redeemer without having good works. It is not going to happen. If nothing else, faith in Christ is good works John 6:29.

 

too many Christians are trying too hard to have good works instead of letting God work thru them. That is why it is very laborous to enter into the rest of knowing that faith is enough. God said He will change you to be like Jesus. Trying to change ourselves is just being selfrighteous and unbelieving. Kind of like what Abraham and Hagar were all about. See Galatians 4:21 thru 31. We are the Children of promise ,s simply by believing in Christ, as a promise God made to Abraham. That is in Galatians 3, and it regardless of our works.

 

BTW, James was a minister to the Jews who WERE under the law. The law was all they'd ever known. The whole idea of faith without works was new to them. Teaching them is different than Paul teaching the gentiles. Re different mindsets.

 

The only thing I'm pointing out is that faith and works are not separated, we agree on this.

 

 

James is contrasting two types of faith, a faith that produces works and a faith is dead and alone. James is affirming the same truth that Paul is in Ephesians 2:10.

 

 

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The only thing I'm pointing out is that faith and works are not separated, we agree on this.

 

 

James is contrasting two types of faith, a faith that produces works and a faith is dead and alone. James is affirming the same truth that Paul is in Ephesians 2:10.

 

 

​​​​

 

True faith will have good works, maybe not instantly, but at some point. Faith is a good work John 6:29. I think the problem comes from people not knowing that it is God that works in and thru us Philippians 2:13, so they muster up their own good works. Is this so they can be saved? Or so they can please God? I don' know.

 

Faith in Christ is all it takes to have eternal life. A person can have good works and not even believe in God.

 

most Christians who have God working these good works in and thru them, don' even realise they are doing His good works. They just do what comes natural to them. Why is it natural to them, because that's what is in their heart. God put it there.

But those works don' help save us. Those works wouldn' even be Him working in and thru us unless we were already saved.

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True faith will have good works, maybe not instantly, but at some point. Faith is a good work John 6:29. I think the problem comes from people not knowing that it is God that works in and thru us Philippians 2:13, so they muster up their own good works. Is this so they can be saved? Or so they can please God? I don' know.

 

Faith in Christ is all it takes to have eternal life. A person can have good works and not even believe in God.

 

most Christians who have God working these good works in and thru them, don' even realise they are doing His good works. They just do what comes natural to them. Why is it natural to them, because that's what is in their heart. God put it there.

But those works don' help save us. Those works wouldn' even be Him working in and thru us unless we were already saved.

 

I don't know if we can say that unbelievers cannot do God's work. God can use anybody. In fact while in the mission field, I was reproved by a bum in the gutter. That would make him an angel, or messenger, of God. I don't believe a saved person would be in that condition. :RpS_thumbup:

Edited by deade
Clarification

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I don't know if we can say that unbelievers cannot do God's work. God can use anybody. In fact while in the mission field, I was reproved by a bum in the gutter. That would make him an angel, or messenger, of God. I don't believe a saved person would be in that condition. :RpS_thumbup:

 

You can be saved in any profession, even a bum in the gutter. Remember Lazarus. Salvation doesn't depend on being well dressed and well fed.

 

 

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