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Guppy

Questions for those who believe in a pre tribulation rapture

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I thought I would start a new thread, the last one changed direction a little

 

"Absolutely, I am looking forward to a productive discussion and will answer every question that you may ask and will address each point that you make. Begin whenever it is convenient for you."

 

My first question is based on your answer in prievious thread One of the reasons you believe in a pre tribulation rapture is because of Gods wrath. If I am correct, your reasoning was that the Church would not see Gods wrath and that is why they are rapture up

 

1st I would like to say that the Bible can't contradict itself and that all things in the Bible must fit together

 

 

My first question is from John 17:13. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

 

17:20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message

"

 

Here in John, we see Jesus praying for his disciples and for all who believe in their message

That they or us not be taken out of the world, but be protected from the evil one

 

If The father can protect us from the evil one, surely he can protect us from his own wrath.We see iin scripture that when God pours out his wrath on the wicked he protects his people. We see

it at the flood, Noah and his family are saved. We see it at Sodom and Gomorrah Sot and his family are saved. We see it in Egypt, when he angel of death comes through and kills the first born. Gods people are saved. We see it with the 144000, they are protected with Gods seal, from his wrath

 

why would The Father do, what the son has asked him not to do

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Regarding John 17:15 I'd like to ask a couple of questions to anyone and no one in particular. Why does Jesus not pray to take "his people, the church" from out of the world before the tribulation? And second question, if Jesus takes the church and the restrainer (ie., Holy Spirit?) out of the world who will combat evil and lead unbelievers to mass conversions?

 

God bless,

William

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Regarding John 17:15 I'd like to ask a couple of questions to anyone and no one in particular. Why does Jesus not pray to take "his people, the church" from out of the world before the tribulation? And second question, if Jesus takes the church and the restrainer (ie., Holy Spirit?) out of the world who will combat evil and lead unbelievers to mass conversions?

 

God bless,

William

 

Jesus was asking God to protect his people during the time before the tribulation begins. Because the Holy Spirit is God he is omnipresent. During this age the Church is his temple but he acts freely outside of that temple just as God's activity wasn't limited to the temple in Jerusalem. The Holy Spirit will be active in the world and lead many to salvation. As far as I know the Bible doesn't give any details of how he will work when the Church is no longer present on the earth.

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My first question is based on your answer in prievious thread One of the reasons you believe in a pre tribulation rapture is because of Gods wrath. If I am correct, your reasoning was that the Church would not see Gods wrath and that is why they are rapture up

 

Yes, you are correct as I quoted a number of scriptures that makes that assertion, did you read them and if so, what is your response?

 

1st I would like to say that the Bible can't contradict itself and that all things in the Bible must fit together

 

I agree completely.

 

 

My first question is from John 17:13. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

What translation are you using as I cannot find the verse saying what you imply here?

 

John 17:13 (NASB95)

13“But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves.

 

 

I will await your answer to these questions before continuing with your comments.

 

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My first question is from John 17:13

 

OK, I believe you were referring to v15 not 13.

 

John 17:15–16 (NASB95)

15I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.

 

Jesus was speaking to his disciples and He was not asking the Father to take them out of the world, where they would be persecuted and even killed but to protect them from the “evil one”, Satan.

 

No, the verse does not literally read “Satan” but do you have any verse that would refute it being Satan and if so, who would it be?

 

 

Persecution is not one and the same as "God's wrath" which I believe you will find in context of Revelation, if I am not mistaken.

 

I would suggest reading verses in context rather than trying to use one verse to base a question or doctrine on.

 

 

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17:20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message

But what does verse 19 say?

 

 

John 17:19–20 (NASB95)

19For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.

 

What is the subject being addressed there, God’s wrath in the end times or, sanctification before the end times?

 

 

Here in John, we see Jesus praying for his disciples and for all who believe in their message

That they or us not be taken out of the world, but be protected from the evil one

When scripture talks about the “world” relative to Christians, do you think of them being physically removed from the “world” or, is it talking about worldly things and Christians not being a part of that?

Also, do we pray to be protected from the Devil, from Satan, from the “evil one”? Of course we do but what does that have to do with end times and God’s wrath?

 

 

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If The father can protect us from the evil one, surely he can protect us from his own wrath.

And he does that in the end times by what means? How about taking his believers up to meet with Christ in the air? OIW, removing us from His wrath which is to come on the earth. Would you agree that is a method that God uses to protect us from His wrath at the end times? Can you provide scripture that talks about God’s wrath before the end times and explains how God protects His Church?

 

We see iin scripture that when God pours out his wrath on the wicked he protects his people. We see it at the flood, Noah and his family are saved.

Other than the flood, when has God ever poured out His wrath on the entire world? Can you quote any scripture that claims Noah and his family were the only believers in God at that time in the entire world? Does it seem logical that He would place everyone that believed in Him on the ark?

 

 

We see it at Sodom and Gomorrah Sot and his family are saved. We see it in Egypt, when he angel of death comes through and kills the first born. Gods people are saved. We see it with the 144000, they are protected with Gods seal, from his wrath why would The Father do, what the son has asked him not to do

 

The Son did not ask Him to do what you claim that he asked in John 17:15, did He?

 

The subject is God's wrath in the end times and the Church being protected from that wrath. So again, I ask if you read the verses that I referenced and if so, how do you explain them? I have responded to your points and answered your questions, will you respond to mine and answer my questions?

 

 

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Also, do we pray to be protected from the Devil, from Satan, from the “evil one”? Of course we do but what does that have to do with end times and God’s wrath?

 

The point is, That Jesus did not just say, Father protect them from the evil one. No Jesus first said, Father I pray that you not take them out of the world.

Why did Jesus pray that prayer?

What was the need for that prayer, had it ever happened before?

 

And he does that in the end times by what means? How about taking his believers up to meet with Christ in the air? OIW, removing us from His wrath which is to come on the earth. Would you agree that is a method that God uses to protect us from His wrath at the end times? Can you provide scripture that talks about God’s wrath before the end times and explains how God protects His Church?

 

No, I don't agree, Gods wrath is not poured out on his people. God knows his people. we are marked with the Holy Spirit, God has put his seal on us

 

Can you provide scripture that talks about God’s wrath before the end times and explains how God protects His Church?

[TABLE=class: bibleTable, border: 0, cellpadding: 0, cellspacing: 0, width: 614]

[TR=class: cke_show_border]

[TD]Thessalonians 5:9

For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10

for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God

and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath

 

It is in Christ we have our salvation and our protection from Gods wrath[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: cke_show_border]

[TD]

Other than the flood, when has God ever poured out His wrath on the entire world?

 

I cant think of another time. It wasn't the entire world, it was only the wicked

 

Can you quote any scripture that claims Noah and his family were the only believers in God at that time in the entire world?

 

No, Can you Quote me any scripture that tells us there was more believers then Noah and his family

 

Does it seem logical that He would place everyone that believed in Him on the ark?

 

 

Yes it does seems logical to me. I think Abraham would agree [TABLE=class: bibleTable, border: 0, cellpadding: 0, cellspacing: 0, width: 483, height: 259]

[TR=class: verseSelected cke_show_border]

[TD]Gen 18:23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked?

 

The Son did not ask Him to do what you claim that he asked in John 17:15, did He?

 

I believe he absolutely did

 

The subject is wrath in the end times and the Church being protected from that wrath

 

No, I disagree, that's not the subject. The subject is when will the Church be taken up.

I agree with you that the Church will not see Gods wrath, but that doesn't prove a pre tribulation rapture. I said to you 1st we should agree that all things in the bible must fit together, so if I can prove to you with scripture that your view doesn't fit with scripture, you would have to conclude God protects his church from his wrath a different way[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: cke_show_border]

[TD] [/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

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