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theophilus

Saul and Samuel

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Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” He said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul.” The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.” He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage.

1 Samuel 28:11-14 ESV

 

On another thread in this section someone made the claim that this wasn't really Samuel but an evil spirit impersonating him. He based this on the fact that believers go Paradise when they die and Samuel is pictured coming up out of the earth. Since the thread in which he said this is closed I can't respond to him there but he brought up a point that I feel needs to be addressed.

 

The first mention of believers going to Paradise after death is found in Luke 23. One of the criminals being crucified with Jesus acknowledged that Jesus was the Messiah and asked to be remembered when Jesus entered his kingdom. Jesus said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

 

Jesus died before the criminal did and by his death he atoned for our sins and opened the way for us to enter Paradise when we die. Before his death this wasn't the case. The Old Testament speaks of all who die, whether they are good or bad, going down to a place called Sheol. In the New Testament this is called Hades. Prior to his death Jesus told a story of a rich man and a beggar named Lazarus who died. Here is part of what he said: "The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side." The rich man was in Hades. Since he could see Abraham and Lazarus they must have been in Hades too, just in a different part. (Some claim this story is a parable, not an account of something that really happened. I have a post in my blog in which I discussed this claim: https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2011/10/29/lazarus-and-the-rich-man-parable-or-actual-event/ )

 

It is obvious that Samuel was in Sheol, or Hades, where Abraham was and where Lazarus would some day be. That explains why he came up out of the earth when summoned by Saul and the medium.

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Or the Medium could have been blowing smoke for Saul, and just made up what she was "seeing." It has never been proven that what Mediums are "seeing" are real, and are not actually just parlor tricks.

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Or the Medium could have been blowing smoke for Saul, and just made up what she was "seeing." It has never been proven that what Mediums are "seeing" are real, and are not actually just parlor tricks.

 

The medium was frightened when Samuel appeared. I believe this shows that God actually brought Samuel back from the dead and she realized that things weren't going as she had planned.

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Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” He said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul.” The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.” He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage.

1 Samuel 28:11-14 ESV

 

On another thread in this section someone made the claim that this wasn't really Samuel but an evil spirit impersonating him. He based this on the fact that believers go Paradise when they die and Samuel is pictured coming up out of the earth. Since the thread in which he said this is closed I can't respond to him there but he brought up a point that I feel needs to be addressed.

 

The first mention of believers going to Paradise after death is found in Luke 23. One of the criminals being crucified with Jesus acknowledged that Jesus was the Messiah and asked to be remembered when Jesus entered his kingdom. Jesus said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

 

Jesus died before the criminal did and by his death he atoned for our sins and opened the way for us to enter Paradise when we die. Before his death this wasn't the case. The Old Testament speaks of all who die, whether they are good or bad, going down to a place called Sheol. In the New Testament this is called Hades. Prior to his death Jesus told a story of a rich man and a beggar named Lazarus who died. Here is part of what he said: "The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side." The rich man was in Hades. Since he could see Abraham and Lazarus they must have been in Hades too, just in a different part. (Some claim this story is a parable, not an account of something that really happened. I have a post in my blog in which I discussed this claim: https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2011/10/29/lazarus-and-the-rich-man-parable-or-actual-event/ )

 

It is obvious that Samuel was in Sheol, or Hades, where Abraham was and where Lazarus would some day be. That explains why he came up out of the earth when summoned by Saul and the medium.

 

I agree Theo, what you just shared was a point that was redirected away from. On the other hand...

 

There are a few references that were touched upon by Orgien yesterday that never made it into the thread (PM). I'm including them because I think they were valuable information. For example, "a god, gods" is Elohim. That's the word that was used. Here's why:

  • 1 Samuel 28:13 The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.”

The term ʾĕlōhı̂m (pl.: lit., “gods”), translated as “a divine being” (NRSV; NASB; JPS) or “a spirit” (NIV), takes here a plural predicate ʿōlı̂m (“coming up”: part., m.pl.). So, it means “gods” or “divine beings” who are far from being on par with Yahweh. Hence, ʾĕlōhı̂m in this necromantic situation/ [1 Sam, p. 625] context refers to what the woman called “gods,” that is, the spirits of the dead or a “preternatural being”45 like Ugaritic rpim — ilnym and ilm — mtm (KTU 1.6:VI:46–48) or ilu, which refers to the deceased, in the ancient Near Eastern texts.

 

From the Net Bible study notes:

 

Heb “gods.” The modifying participle (translated “coming up”) is plural, suggesting that underworld spirits are the referent. But in the following verse Saul understands the plural word to refer to a singular being. The reference is to the spirit of Samuel.

 

ESV Study Bible:

 

A god is literally “gods” with a plural verbal form, so not “God,” which is a plural noun but takes a singular verb. This term is used of the spirits of the dead in ancient Near Eastern texts. The Moabite “gods” may also have been the spirits of the dead (see Num. 25:2; Ps. 106:28). Saul, however, is interested in Samuel as a person and asks about his (singular) appearance. The robe was Samuel’s characteristic garment (1 Sam. 15:27).

 

God bless,

William

 

 

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Or the Medium could have been blowing smoke for Saul, and just made up what she was "seeing." It has never been proven that what Mediums are "seeing" are real, and are not actually just parlor tricks.

 

Just a note, the Medium cried out. She seemingly expressed surprise.

 

In the thread we also brought up that Jesus allowed Satan to take Him up top the Temple. No doubt God can use such examples to His advantage. And in 1 Samuel chapter 2, Hannah says, "The Lord kills and brings to life, he brings down to Sheol and raises up". I think this further reinforces what Theo shared.

 

The Narrator refers to Samuel, and there's nothing in the text that says anything contrary. As to whether the divination or Mediums are legit, the Scriptures do not say what she did or how she did this. The message there is from silence. Literally, when the Scriptures go silent there is wisdom. The author, I speculate thought it would be disservice to disclose this information to us, them, or anyone else.

 

Your thoughts?

 

God bless,

William

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It is obvious that Samuel was in Sheol, or Hades, where Abraham was and where Lazarus would some day be. That explains why he came up out of the earth when summoned by Saul and the medium.

 

I don't agree, but at least you are using logic....

 

 

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The medium was frightened when Samuel appeared. I believe this shows that God actually brought Samuel back from the dead and she realized that things weren't going as she had planned.

 

1 Sam 28:12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you (Saul) deceived me? You are Saul!”

 

13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”

 

The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure[a] (a: footnotes: Or see spirits; or see gods) coming up out of the earth.” NIV

 

Clearly the medium was afraid of Saul, not Samuel. Seeing Samuel made her realize that it was Saul who had asked her to conjure him up. Saul was the one who was removing "from the land those who were mediums and spiritists" verse 3

 

 

 

 

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I take it we are now going to discuss this topic in this thread. There are severals key point that are important in regard to the event.

 

(1) The objection has been raised that God would never use a medium. The text does not say that God did. However God could have allowed it. This is well within God's sovereignty. There are several examples from the Scripture. For example, God use the magi. They were not Jews and in all likelihood astrologers.

 

(2) A second object is that the medium was lying because no one can really summon up the dead. The problem with that view is the Scriptures don't say such things are impossible. The Scriptures simply say don't do it. It is wrong.

 

(3) There are clues in the text of 1 Sam. which point to it being Samuel.

 

a. Three times the writer\narrator refers to Samuel in the text, not the witch, not Saul, but the writer\narrator.

 

b. The writer\narrator does not in any way suggest that it was not Samuel even though he could have.

 

c. The language fits Samuel.

 

The LORD has done to you as he spoke by me, for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day. Moreover, the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me. The LORD will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines.”

 

Now compare that to 1 Sam. 15:28:

 

And Samuel said to him, “The LORD has torn the kingdom of Israel from you this day and has given it to a neighbor of yours, who is better than you.
I am sure others can see the similarities but the word "neighbor" stands out as unique.

 

d. Samuel's robe appears to be important. The medium describes what she sees as an old man wearing a robe. Wearing a robe in and of itself would not be that important. Lots of people wore robes. Yet there appears to be more to than that.

 

In the same passage above, 1 Sam. 15:27, it states: As Samuel turned to go away, Saul seized the skirt of his robe, and it tore.Thus the torn robe become symbolic of the kingdom being torn out of the hands of Saul.

 

e. Another objection is that this so-call apparition was a deceiving spirit\demon. Yet this apparition does not deceive Saul but prophesied that Saul would die, his sons would die, and that the Israelite army would be given into the hands of Philistines. No deception there.

 

My conclusion is there are excellent reasons to believe it was really Samuel and no good reason to think otherwise.

Edited by Origen
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The Narrator refers to Samuel, and there's nothing in the text that says anything contrary.
Unless the narrator was presenting Saul's and the medium's point of view. They saw Samuel (or only she saw him...?) IF so, are these to be trusted that it was actually Samuel? No, they were both deceived.

 

That's why God made these prohibitions against necromancy. Those who engage mediums are entering on to Satan's ground. He is the great deceiver.

 

See: https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-necromancy.html

 

 

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Unless the narrator was presenting Saul's and the medium's point of view.
Prove it from the text. The text does not make that claim. You do.

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I take it we are now going to discuss this topic in this thread. There are severals key point that are important in regard to the event.

 

(1) The objection has been raised that God would never use a medium. The text does not say that God did. However God could have allowed it. This is well within God sovereignty. There are several examples from the Scripture. For example, God use the magi. They were not Jews and in all likelihood astrologers.

 

(2) A second object is that the medium was lying because no one can really summon up the dead. The problem with that view is the Scriptures don't say such things are impossible. The Scriptures simply say don't do it. It is wrong.

 

(3) There are clues in the text of 1 Sam. which point to it being Samuel.

 

a. Three times the writer\narrator refers to Samuel in the text, not the witch, not Saul, but the writer\narrator.

 

b. The writer\narrator does not in any way suggest that it was not Samuel even though he could have.

 

c. The language fits Samuel.

 

 

 

Now compare that to 1 Sam. 15:28:

 

I am sure others can see the similarities but the word "neighbor" stands out in my mind.

 

d. Samuel's robe appears to be important. The medium describes what sees as an old man wearing a robe. Wearing a robe in and of itself would not be that important. Lots of people wore robes. Yet there appears to be more to than that.

 

In the same passage above, 1 Sam. 15:27, it states: As Samuel turned to go away, Saul seized the skirt of his robe, and it tore.Thus the torn robe become symbolic of the kingdom being torn out of the hands of Saul.

 

e. Another objection is that this so-call apparition was a deceiving spirit\demon. Yet this apparition does not deceive Saul but prophesied that Saul would die, his sons would die, and that Israelite army would be given into the hands of Philistines. No deception there.

 

My conclusion is there are excellent reasons to believe it was really Samuel and no good reason to think otherwise.

 

Speech!!!

 

1778254543_ExegesisAward.jpg.ee1d738f6c7dd5c0f20be53ae3534267.jpg

 

God bless,

William

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Speech!!!

 

 

God bless,

William

Who me? lol

 

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Who me? lol

 

 

Still waiting Mr.

 

Any words of wisdom, shout outs or thank yous? Perhaps you want to use this time to bash Trump?

 

God bless,

William

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Still waiting Mr.

 

Any words of wisdom, shout outs or thank yous? Perhaps you want to use this time to bash Trump?

Trump, no way.

 

Thank God he lead me to learn the languages and to do research using qualified scholars.

 

 

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Prove it from the text. The text does not make that claim. You do.

 

I have already used Job to illustrate my point....The writer stated that God said Job was blameless/sinless. But clearly Job was not blameless. Yes, he kept God's rules outwardly, but like the Pharisees of old everything he did was "to be seen of men". A man justified by faith alone would never, ever brag that he was without sin. That's a clue right there. See Luke 18:10-14 NIV

 

Your argument would be that the writer quoted God and He said Job was blameless; therefore he was....

 

My argument is that God was presenting Job as Job presented himself to God. See Job 32:2 NASB

 

Again, you have to look at the whole picture, not just one sentence.

 

The OT is very clear on the state of men in death:

 

The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10. "The dead praise not the Lord." Psalms 115:17.

 

The dead cannot contact the living, nor do they know what the living are doing. They are dead. Their thoughts have perished (Psalms 146:4).

 

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job 14:12. "The day of the Lord will come ... in the which the heavens shall pass away." 2 Peter 3:10.

Edited by AndThisGospel
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I have already used Job to illustrate my point....The writer stated that God said Job was blameless/sinless. But clearly Job was not blameless. Yes, he kept God's rules outwardly, but like the Pharisees of old everything he did was "to be seen of men". A men justified by faith alone would never, ever brag that he was without sin. That's a clue right there. See Luke 18:10-14 NIV

 

Your argument would be that the writer quoted God and He said Job was blameless; therefore he was....

 

My argument is that God was presenting Job as Job presented himself to God. See Job 32:2 NASB

 

Again, you have to look at the whole picture, not just one sentence.

 

The OT is very clear on the state of men in death:

 

The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10. "The dead praise not the Lord." Psalms 115:17.

 

The dead cannot contact the living, nor do they know what the living are doing. They are dead. Their thoughts have perished (Psalms 146:4).

 

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job 14:12. "The day of the Lord will come ... in the which the heavens shall pass away." 2 Peter 3:10.

The cases are not analogous. Besides God said he was upright and blameless. Was God wrong about Job? No way!

 

Moreover, even if I were to grant your point (but I don't) concerning the book of Job, that only shows, at best, that it sometimes happens in Scripture, but that in no way proves the same kind of thing is going on in 1 Sam. 28. You cannot avoid the text itself and what it says.

Edited by Origen
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The cases are not analogous.

 

I understand that, but the principle that I wrote of still applies....

 

Besides God said he was upright and blameless. Was God wrong about Job? No way!

 

Your response is very typical. I didn't say God was wrong....What I said was that God presented Job's view of himself. That truth comes from reading the whole book of Job.

 

I challenge you to debate me on the book of Job. IT's easier to debate this subject then the one that we are currently debating.

 

Let's debate this subject later....

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The OT is very clear on the state of men in death:

 

The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10. "The dead praise not the Lord." Psalms 115:17.

 

The dead cannot contact the living, nor do they know what the living are doing. They are dead. Their thoughts have perished (Psalms 146:4).

 

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job 14:12. "The day of the Lord will come ... in the which the heavens shall pass away." 2 Peter 3:10.

 

Comments....?

 

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I understand that, but the principle that I wrote of still applies....
Not that you have proven. Again, even if I were to grant your point (but I don't) concerning the book of Job, that only shows, at best, that it sometimes happens in Scripture, but that in no way proves the same kind of thing is going on in 1 Sam. 28. You cannot avoid the text itself and what it says. You have simply assumed what you must prove in order to support your claim.

 

Your response is very typical. I didn't say God was wrong....
And I never said you did.

 

What I said was that God presented Job's view of himself. That truth comes from reading the whole book of Job.
Your point is moot even if were true and thus irrelevant to the topic at hand.

 

I challenge you to debate me on the book of Job. IT's easier to debate this subject then the one that we are currently debating.
That is nothing but a poor attempt to change the subject.

 

Now, again, can you show from the text that it was not Samuel when the text clearly says it was Samuel?

Edited by Origen

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Now, again, can you show from the text that it was not Samuel when the text clearly says it was Samuel?

 

Sure, it's very easy. "The dead know nothing". Therefore if one is communicating with what appears to be a deceased person he is being deceived.

 

If believers purposefully reject the plain teaching that "the dead know nothing" then they could possibly be deceived - just like King Saul. It is because of God's mercy that He has postponed the coming apostasy.* He wants all to come to a knowledge of the truth.

 

There will come a time when God will no longer hold back. Those have persistently disregarded the Scriptures on this subject will be deceived. * See 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12

Edited by AndThisGospel
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Sure, it's very easy. "The dead know nothing". Therefore if one is communicating with what appears to be a deceased person he is being deceived.
Your inability to address the text and deal with it on its own terms is obvious. You have taken a theological view and then forced upon any text that does not agree with that view. That means you must come up with an explanation of some kind even when the text does not agree. Exegesis precedes theology, not the other way around.

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Your inability to address the text and deal with it on its own terms is obvious. You have taken a theological view and then forced upon any text that does not agree with that view. That means you must come up with an explanation of some kind even when the text does not agree. Exegesis precedes theology, not the other way around.

 

1 Chronicles 10:13-14, NIV. "Saul died because he was unfaithful to the Lord; he did not keep the word of the Lord and even consulted a medium for guidance, and did not inquire of the Lord."

 

The medium's spirit was an imposter, for Scripture clearly states that Saul "did not inquire of the Lord." In other words this wasn't Samuel!

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The medium's spirit was an imposter, for Scripture clearly states that Saul "did not inquire of the Lord." In other words this wasn't Samuel!
Sorry no. The text does not say that.

 

So Saul died for his breach of faith. He broke faith with the LORD in that he did not keep the command of the LORD, and also consulted a medium, seeking guidance. He did not seek guidance from the LORD. Therefore the LORD put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse.
The text does not say she was an imposter. The text does say Saul consulted a medium but it does not say it was not Samuel. You are simply reading into the text things that are not there (but want to be there) and in this case misrepresenting what it says.

 

The phrase he "did not inquire of the LORD" does not mean what you claim. It means he did not inquire of the LORD, nothing more. It says nothing about the medium or Samuel.

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The phrase he "did not inquire of the LORD" does not mean what you claim. It means he did not inquire of the LORD, nothing more. It says nothing about the medium or Samuel.

 

"Did not inquire of Lord" means that Saul did not go through the proper channels. Repentance and faith in God were the proper channels. Going through a witch and her delusions was not from or of God.

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"Did not inquire of Lord" means that Saul did not go through the proper channels.
True, but it does not mean that the medium was an imposter or that it was not Samuel. You are forcing a simple phrase far beyond its intended meaning.

 

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