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FruitNNut

What denomination do you closely relate with......

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What denomination do you most closely relate with but what parts stop you from being part of it?

 

I'm still trying to learn the differences between so many denominations and thought this thread would help maybe point out things I've probably missed :)

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A thread on this subject could become long and convoluted rather quickly. My recommendation is to start looking at the statements of faith of the major denominations, then move into more of the details from there. I know this sounds like a lot of research, but it really is the best way to go about it. After reviewing a specific statement of faith weigh what is said against the bible, and dismiss any that are in apparent contradiction to what the bible teaches.

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I grew up in a Baptist Church but "once saved always saved" is unbiblical according to Paul.

 

I like seventh day adventist as I agree that Saturday is the sabbath but in the two I've been to they didn't seem to know the bible well at all, at least the Sunday school teachers. Aft er a teacher said four or five things totally unbiblical I stopped listening. The services seem to almost always be on worshipping on Saturday instead of Sunday also.

 

Some pentacost let churches are good but a lot are just way out in left field. Too many people claiming to have God given powers they just don't have. Can't tell the good preachers from the bad ones.

 

Four square churches seem to take the bible as the final authority but the music is just too loud for me.

 

I prefer a church that just preaches the bible without any dogma.

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I grew up in a Baptist Church but "once saved always saved" is unbiblical according to Paul.

 

I like seventh day adventist as I agree that Saturday is the sabbath but in the two I've been to they didn't seem to know the bible well at all, at least the Sunday school teachers. Aft er a teacher said four or five things totally unbiblical I stopped listening. The services seem to almost always be on worshipping on Saturday instead of Sunday also.

 

Some pentacost let churches are good but a lot are just way out in left field. Too many people claiming to have God given powers they just don't have. Can't tell the good preachers from the bad ones.

 

Four square churches seem to take the bible as the final authority but the music is just too loud for me.

 

I prefer a church that just preaches the bible without any dogma.

 

Wouldn't they be called, "Saturday School" Teachers, in a 7th Day Adventist church instead? ;)

Edited by David Lee

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I grew up in a Baptist Church but "once saved always saved" is unbiblical according to Paul.

 

Hi Serpardum, do you believe that St. Paul teaches that someone who is one of God's Elect, who is in Christ and truly a Christian/truly "saved", can "lose" their salvation? Or do you mean something else about the meaning of, "once saved, always saved?

 

It seems to me that for a person to be, "always saved", they must actually be, "once saved", to begin with.

 

Yours in Christ,

David

 

 

 

 

"He who began a good work in you will perfect

it until the day of Christ Jesus"

Philippians 1:6

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by David Lee

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I prefer a church that just preaches the bible without any dogma.

 

Please elaborate. For instance, do you believe that a preacher should never use the word, "Trinity", or teach the doctrine of the Trinity to his congregation, even if the text warrants it?

 

Thanks!

 

--David

 

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Please elaborate. For instance, do you believe that a preacher should never use the word, "Trinity", or teach the doctrine of the Trinity to his congregation, even if the text warrants it?

 

Thanks!

 

--David

 

Scripture never will.

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Hi Serpardum, do you believe that St. Paul teaches that someone who is one of God's Elect, who is in Christ and truly a Christian/truly "saved", can "lose" their salvation? Or do you mean something else about the meaning of, "once saved, always saved"

 

Hebrews 18

 

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

 

This follows Jesus saying that not everyone who calls his name shall be saved but those that do the will of His father.

 

This also follows the old testament

 

Ezekial 18

 

24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

 

​​​​​​​

 

Please elaborate. For instance, do you believe that a preacher should never use the word, "Trinity", or teach the doctrine of the Trinity to his congregation, even if the text warrants it?

 

Not at all. What I mean is, a Baptist minister will always attempt to interpret scripture to follow his already accepted dogma. He's already established in his mind what the bible says so really can't learn from it. Anything that doesn't follow what he already believes he will explain away with convoluted schemes.

 

Such as, when Paul says there will be a fearful looking forward to the day of judgement for those that willfully sin they try to explain away with it meaning they won't get full heavenly reward, or some such. But reading it without preconceived dogma we can plainly read that we are going to hell if we willfully sin after being saved.

 

Edited by Serpardum
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Originally posted by St_Worm2 View Post

 

Please elaborate. For instance, do you believe that a preacher should never use the word, "Trinity", or teach the doctrine of the Trinity to his congregation, even if the text warrants it?

 

Thanks!

 

 

Scripture never will.

The Hebrew word for God is Elohim. This is a plural word but it is always used with a singular verb. In the creation account he says, "Let us make man in our image, showing there is more than one person in the Godhead. The fact that there are three persons is shown in Isaiah 48:12-16.

“Listen to me, O Jacob,

and Israel, whom I called!

I am he; I am the first,

and I am the last.

My hand laid the foundation of the earth,

and my right hand spread out the heavens;

when I call to them,

they stand forth together.

“Assemble, all of you, and listen!

Who among them has declared these things?

The LORD loves him;

he shall perform his purpose on Babylon,

and his arm shall be against the Chaldeans.

I, even I, have spoken and called him;

I have brought him, and he will prosper in his way.

Draw near to me, hear this:

from the beginning I have not spoken in secret,

from the time it came to be I have been there.”

And now the Lord GOD has sent me, and his Spirit.

The speaker begins with the declaration, " I am he; I am the first, and I am the last. My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens.", showing that God is speaking and ends with " And now the Lord GOD has sent me, and his Spirit." Who could be God and yet be sent by God and by his Spirit? Only Jesus Christ, the second person of the Trinity.

 

 

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I believe in the trinity but I believe Isaiah is saying the Lord sent him, especially since the text I read has a closing quote before this.

 

I believe there are verses that speak of the diety of Jesus, but this isn't one of them.

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26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. ~Hebrews 10:26

 

This follows Jesus saying that not everyone who calls his name shall be saved but those that do the will of His father.

 

Agreed, those who "claim" to be born again, but never leave their former, sinful lifestyles, prove that their "claim" of being a Christian is nothing more that! Likewise, those who go on, "sinning willfully", cannot claim to be, "always saved", because they bypassed the, "once saved", first step, IOW, they were never saved to begin with.

 

Those who are still in their "natural" state (1 Corinthians 2:14) can never do God's will because they do not and cannot "know" Him, nor does He know them (Matthew 7:22-23).

 

In Christ,

David

 

 

 

 

"He is able to save forever [to the uttermost] those who

draw near to God through Him, since He always

lives to make intercession for them"

Hebrews 7:25

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Scripture never will.
Sorry but the teachings of the Watchtower carries no weight here because we know better.

 

 

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Agreed, those who "claim" to be born again, but never leave their former, sinful lifestyles, prove that their "claim" of being a Christian is nothing more that! Likewise, those who go on, "sinning willfully", cannot claim to be, "always saved", because they bypassed the, "once saved", first step, IOW, they were never saved to begin with.

 

This is how the baptists explain this away. The baptists would call them "backsliders". I have always heard the baptists proclaim that "backsliders" are still saved. When confronted with this verse it becomes well, they were never saved in the first place. It does not fit the Baptist dogma so they need to interpret it to follow what they believe.

 

Look at the person God describes in Ezekial 18. We know that works do not get us to heaven but the atonement for our sins through the sacrifice of Jesus. In the old testament times they were looking forward to the crucifixion of Christ. Today we are looking back on the crucifixion. It is the same salvation. We repent of our sins, ask God for forgiveness and are forgiven. Today we accept Jesus' sacrifice on the cross for our sins. On the past they would sacrifice animals on an alter as a symbolization. An animals blood does nothing but is a symbol for both man and God.

 

Just because Jesus' death is in our past does not change the conditions of repentant. Ezekial 18 applies to us today just as it did over 2000 years ago. Jesus came not to do away with the law but to fulfill it.

 

Salvation is not saying some magic words and that's the end of it. It's turning away from our sins and keep turning away. God will not leave or forsake us, but we can leave and forsake Him.

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Hi Serpardum, you said,

Salvation is not saying some magic words and that's the end of it.

 

That's exactly what I've been saying here, isn't it? Look at my signature line quote below by John Calvin :)

 

It seems to me that Hebrews 10:26 isn't concerned with "backsliders" or "has beens", it's concerned with those who never became Christians to begin with (cf Matthew 7:22-23 and Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43), even though that may be their "claim" and belief about themselves!

 

True (born again) Christians, those who God has made into "new creatures" in His Son (2 Corinthians 5:17) do not, "go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth"! That's the description of someone who knew everything they needed to know and SHOULD have become a Christian, but never did.

 

I think it's also important to consider what the Lord has to say 1) concerning the elect and His promise of eternal (not probationary) life from the moment we first believe.

 

 

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. ~John 5

 

 

And 2) concerning His intention to carry out His Father's will concerning the elect/His "bride", and His statement that of all the Father draws and gives to Him, He loses .................................................. .........how many?

 

 

37
All
that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of
all
that He has given Me
I lose nothing
, but raise it up on the last day.
~John 6

 

 

We are saved by grace through the gift of faith that God gives us so we can believe, and He has promised to see us through to Glory as well .. Philippians 1:6.

 

Yours and His,

David

 

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me

draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day"

John 6:44

 

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Jesus will not cast out those that turn from God, they do it themselves. It is God's will that Jesus lose nothing, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen. Remember, it is also God's will that none should perish, but we know for a fact that's not going to happen.

 

 

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I believe in the trinity but I believe Isaiah is saying the Lord sent him, especially since the text I read has a closing quote before this.
I agree that this verse says nothing about the trinity.

 

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Jesus will not cast out those that turn from God, they do it themselves. It is God's will that Jesus lose nothing, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen. Remember, it is also God's will that none should perish, but we know for a fact that's not going to happen.

4 God our Savior .. who
desires
all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. ~1 Timothy

 

9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not
wishing
for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. ~2 Peter 3

 

37
All
that the Father gives Me
Will
come to Me
, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me
I lose nothing
, but raise it up on the last day.

40 “For this is the
will
of My Father, that
everyone
who beholds the Son and believes in Him
will have
eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” ~John 6

Hi Serpardum, though there's really no reason to look beyond the first half of v37 above, "ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me" (along with v39's, "I lose nothing"), there is more. And outside of the obvious difference between God "desiring"/"wishing" that something might happen, and His "WILLING" that something will happen, 2 Peter 3:9, in context, is written to and about the Elect only.

 

There's quite a bit more to this, but I've got to run right now. I'll get back to the rest as soon as I can.

 

Yours in Christ,

David

 

 

 

 

 

"He is able to save foreverthose who draw near

to God through Him, since He always lives

to make intercession for them"

Hebrews 7:25

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by David Lee
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Hi Serpardum, do you believe that St. Paul teaches that someone who is one of God's Elect, who is in Christ and truly a Christian/truly "saved", can "lose" their salvation? Or do you mean something else about the meaning of, "once saved, always saved?

 

It seems to me that for a person to be, "always saved", they must actually be, "once saved", to begin with.

 

Yours in Christ,

David

"He who began a good work in you will perfect

it until the day of Christ Jesus"

Philippians 1:6

 

 

 

 

 

 

I cannot for the life of me understand how Baptist harmonize Arminianism with OSAS.

 

I think some disagree with the wording of, "Once Saved Always Saved". I speculate though that the same people take issue with the Reformed Doctrine of "Perseverance of the Saints". However, in my mind Perseverance of the Saints tends to convey responsibility on man's part, where many people seemingly suggest OSAS relinquishes man of his responsibility. Personally, I think they'll argue against both on the side of synergism. I remember R. C. Sproul suggested that Perseverance should be replaced with Preservation of the Saints (he was emphasizing monergism). I disagree with his opinion with regard to more accurate wording, but I do agree to his point. I like the original wording because it does not relieve man of his own responsibility, but the doctrine as you know does teach monergism as both you and Sproul suggests.

 

God bless,

William

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I gave my son a phone. It was my will that he didn't lose it. He lost it.

 

In the parable of the prodigal son it was the will of the father that his son stay at home. The father did not cast out his son. His son left.

 

Why do you think jesus told the story of the prodigal son?

 

 

Edited by Serpardum
edited forum mangeling my post

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I gave my son a phone. It was my will that he didn't lose it. He lost it.

 

Am I missing something or are you only demonstrating your own impotence? Is it your intent to compare yourself, your rule with the Sovereignty of God?

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Am I missing something or are you only demonstrating your own impotence? Is it your intent to compare yourself, your rule with the Sovereignty of God?

 

When jesus told the parable of the prodigal son was he saying the father in tgat story ruled with gods authority? When jesus told the parable of the farmer sowing his fields was he saying the farmer sewed with God's authority?

 

I am simply following jesus' example by talking about heavenly things by comparing them to worldly things man is familiar with.

 

 

 

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So you were addressing me in post #19? I was and still am unclear as to who you're directing your posts to. I noticed you did not respond to St_Worm2.

 

 

When jesus told the parable of the prodigal son was he saying the father in tgat story ruled with gods authority? When jesus told the parable of the farmer sowing his fields was he saying the farmer sewed with God's authority?

 

 

You ask whether the father of the parable ruled with God's authority? Are you suggesting that God is not Sovereign because the parable focuses in on how readily the father is to pardon the sins of the prodigal son? The parable of the prodigal son is a continuation of preceding doctrine in Luke 15. The parable of the prodigal son represents God as a common father to all mankind, to the whole family of Adam. The condition of the prodigal represents to us a sinful state, that miserable state into which man is fallen. A sinful state is a state of departure and distance from God. The Father offers Himself freely to those whom He calls to repentance, through the greatness of their misery they are then humbled. The Father not only receives them, but also enriches them with far greater gifts and blesses with the greatest bliss. In the person of the young prodigal son, he returns to his father, to whom he had been disobedient and rebellious. Likewise, all sinners apply to the grace of God. To the kind father, on the other hand, who not only pardons the crimes of his son, but of his own accord meets him when returning, he compares God, who is not satisfied with pardoning those who pray to him, but even advances to meet them with the compassion of a father.

 

 

God bless,

William

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In post #19 I was responding to post #17 where St. Worm was quoting scripture saying it was the will of God that jesus lose no one. My point was even though it is God's will Jesus never said he wouldn't lose any.

 

It is the will of God that none should perish, is it not? Yet some do as we are told in the bible some go to hell.

 

I am simply stating that a verse saying, again, that he would that none perish doesn't necessarily mean no one will perish.

 

If it was totally up to God none would perish, since he states that is his will. It is up to man to accept God and his ways or to reject them.

 

Here I see God saying that once someone comes to him it is his will that they are not lost, that they do not turn from him. I don't see any verse saying that no one will be lost, however.

 

I didn't respond to your posts because they are talking about theologies I've never studied. I study the bible, not man's interpretation.

 

 

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In post #19 I was responding to post #17 where St. Worm was quoting scripture saying it was the will of God that jesus lose no one. My point was even though it is God's will Jesus never said he wouldn't lose any.

 

It is the will of God that none should perish, is it not? Yet some do as we are told in the bible some go to hell.

 

I am simply stating that a verse saying, again, that he would that none perish doesn't necessarily mean no one will perish.

 

If it was totally up to God none would perish, since he states that is his will. It is up to man to accept God and his ways or to reject them.

 

Here I see God saying that once someone comes to him it is his will that they are not lost, that they do not turn from him. I don't see any verse saying that no one will be lost, however.

 

I didn't respond to your posts because they are talking about theologies I've never studied. I study the bible, not man's interpretation.

 

 

 

I'll remove myself from this discussion. I didn't mean to derail the conversation between you and St_Worm2.

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