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Gerhard Ebersöhn

Integrity of Sunday apologists

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Integrity of Sunday proponents


Q~Ignatius Epistle to the Trallians Chapter 9

 

On the day of the preparation, then, at the third hour, He received the sentence from Pilate, the Father permitting that to happen; at the sixth hour He was crucified; at the ninth hour He gave up the ghost; and before sunset He was buried. During the Sabbath He continued under the earth in the tomb in which Joseph of Arimathæa had laid Him. At the dawning of the Lord’s day He arose from the dead, according to what was spoken by Himself, “As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so shall the Son of man also be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” The day of the preparation, then, comprises the passion; the Sabbath embraces the burial; the Lord’s Day contains the resurrection.~Q

 

 

What collection of errors!

 

Biggest LIE of all is that this is Ignatius’ writing.

 

On the day of “the Preparation-OF-THE-PASSOVER” John 19:14, then,

“straightway in the MORNING” Mark 15:1 Matthew 27:1 “the sixth hour” John 19:14 using Roman time, “~He received the sentence from Pilate, the Father permitting that to happen~”;

 

At “the THIRD hour” He was crucified Mark 15:25 using Hebrew time;

 

“From the sixth hour there was darkness unto the ninth hour Mark 15:33 Matthew 27:45 Luke 23:44 using Hebrew time.

 

“~at the ninth hour He gave up the ghost~” Mark 15:34 Matthew 27:46;

 

“~and before sunset He was buried~”. NO Scripture, NO prophesy, NO historical typological precedent.

 

“The Day of the Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath because That Day was great-day-sabbath”—OF THE PASSOVER, then, comprises the Burial “since Joseph arrived there" Luke 23:50 "… when evening had come … and craved the body of Jesus" Mark 15:42 Matthew 27:57 John 19:31 "… and laid the body of Jesus and closed the grave … That Day The Preparation the Sabbath nearing” John 19:42 Luke 23:54;

 

“The day after the Preparation … they secured the grave … for the third day (He) said …” Matthew 27:62,64

 

“~During the Sabbath He continued under the earth in the tomb in which Joseph of Arimathæa had laid Him.~”

 

But as it began to dawn towards the First Day of the week mid-afternoon late on the Sabbath the angel of the Lord descended and cast the stone from the grave …” Matthew 28:1;

 

And He, “~according to what was spoken by Himself, “As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so shall the Son of man also be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth”~”, arose from the dead.

 

“The Day of the Preparation of the Passover” then, comprises the Passion;

 

“The Day of the Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath” embraces the Burial;

 

“The Lord’s Day” then, by virtue of “God having finished all his works on the Seventh Day He THUS CONCERNING SPAKE : And God the day The Seventh Day from all his works, RESTED”, contains the Resurrection.

 

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I am not sure where you came up with this statement:

 

 

But as it began to dawn towards the First Day of the week mid-afternoon late on the Sabbath the angel of the Lord descended and cast the stone from the grave …Matthew 28:1;

 

 

the verse is:

Matthew 28:1

The Resurrection

28 Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and nthe other Mary went to see the tomb.

"Now AFTER the Sabbath" "toward the dawn of the FIRST day of the week (Sunday)"

 

 

 

This was when the tomb was found empty, as the sun was dawning, on Sunday, the FIRST day of the week.

 

There is nothing I can find in scripture about late on the Sabbath an angel descending and opening the grave. I am not sure where that idea came from and it is certainly not stated in the scripture itself. The scripture in verse 2 speaks of a great earthquake and the angel rolling way the stone - and this is stated AFTER the women come to the tomb. It is not stated in the past tense and so does not refer to the time of when this happened at all. Its sense is it happened as the women approached.

 

Since this clearly happened after the Sabbath and on Sunday according to scripture, I don't see how one can argue anything differently and still remain true to the words of scripture.

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On the day of “the Preparation-OF-THE-PASSOVER” John 19:14,

 

Yes, Jesus was't crucified the day before Saturday, but the day before the start of Passover.

 

But as it began to dawn towards the First Day of the week mid-afternoon late on the Sabbath the angel of the Lord descended and cast the stone from the grave …Matthew 28:1;

 

I'd also like to know the source of that quote. Although, it is possible, even likely, the the tomb was opened as the Sabbath ended, based on three days and three nights from from Wednesday sunset. The tomb was already open when the women came at sunrise Sunday. And, there's a certain appropriateness for Jesus resting on the Sabbath and rising at the end of the Sabbath.

 

 

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Leviticus 23:5 the week starting the 15th day of the 1st month of the year on the Hebrew calendar.

Edited by Cornelius

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What year did Jesus die in?

 

That's a problem. There's a range of years Jesus could have died. Even worse, calendars have to be adjusted and in the first century there was no standard adjustment to the Hebrew calendar, so even if we knew the year Jesus died, we still wouldn't know what day is the 15th of the 1st month. You can't even bet on the timing of the leap month, let alone finer adjustments. Back in Old testament times, new months started on the whims of Jewish leaders (based on testimony of two witnesses), and then the community would be notified of the start of a new month.

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It was called a Great Sabbath - which means the Passover fell on the Saturday Sabbath.

 

We can know what year Jesus died I believe. There are very specific timing clues in scripture.

 

Here is what I understand:

Dionysius Exiguus, a monk died in A.D. 556. He determined the date of Christ's birth to be 753 - this is counted from the year Rome was founded. The following year then, 754, became A.D. 1. most of the world used this system for about 2000 years.

 

There is new information since then, which puts his calculations within 6 years of the actual years.

 

Flavius Josephus tells us in both
The Jewish War
(I.33.1, 5, 6, 8; II.1.3) and in
Jewish Antiquities
(XVII.6.1, 4-5; XVII.8.1; XVII.9), that King Herod died in 750.

 

In Matthew 2:1, the writer has Jesus being born "in the days of Herod the King."

 

This moves the date of Jesus' birth back 3 years.

 

Herod ordered the killing of all Jewish boys under the age of 2. (Matt. 2:16) so Jesus was most likely born a year before then.

 

Since Herod died in 750, and was alive to give this order, this pushes Jesus' birth back to 748 or 749.

 

Josephus tells us Herod became ill shortly after this event and went to Jericho which had a warmer climate, to heal. He died their 6 months later.

 

This puts Jesus' birth around 747-748, or around 5-6 BC.

 

Then Luke tells us that Jesus began his ministry around the age of 30 when he was baptized by John. (Luke 3:23 )

 

John began to preach and baptize according to Luke 3:1-2:

In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and Phillip his brother tetrarch of Iturea, and the country of Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilina; under the high priests Annas and Caiaphas

This is quite exact. It appears John was not preaching and baptizing for very long before Jesus came to him to be baptized, probably in the same year.

 

Tiberius was made Caesar to govern the eastern provinces under the reign of Augustus, which began in 765. This would push Jesus' baptism to 780 -the 15th year of Tiberious' reign.

 

Jesus, then, would have been about 32 or 33 when he began his public ministry.

 

That Pontius Pilate is mentioned helps pinpoint this further. Pontius Pilot became procurator in Judea in A.D. 26.

 

This means Jesus could not have begun his ministry prior to A.D. 26.

 

When Jesus cast out the money changers and said "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again" (John 2:19), the response from the Jews was that it took "forty six years" to build the temple.

 

Historically, the temple took 46 years to be completed. Historically it was completed around 25-26 AD according to
Jewish Antiquities
of Josephus, XV.11.1.

 

This confirms Jesus' ministry most likely began AD 27 when he was 32 - 33 years of age.

 

In John's Gospel we know there were 3 passovers during Jesus' ministry, which would indicate Jesus' ministry lasted for about 3 years.

 

This would take us to 30 Ad

 

In 30 AD Passover fell on a Saturday Sabbath which, when this happened, was known as the Great Sabbath as a result.

 

This would put Jesus dying on the Friday before.

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Was that the practice of the Jews at the time of Jesus? The practices of the Jewish Passover today come to us from after the destruction of the Temple in 70AD, not before.

 

Also, scriptures do not say "the Great Sabbath." The Syriac and Douay-Rheims bible versions say "a great Sabbath"

 

Other versions say: "a high sabbath" "a special sabbath" "and a very special Sabbath, because it was the Passover" (Living New Testament); "a high day";

In Greek it is [TABLE=cellpadding: 0, cellspacing: 0, width: 600, height: 22]

[TR]

[TD]

μέγας megas

μέγας
mégas,
meg'-as; (including the prolonged forms, feminine μεγάλη megálē, plural μεγάλοι megáloi, etc.; compare also
,
); big (literally or figuratively, in a very wide application):—(
+
fear) exceedingly, great(-est), high, large, loud, mighty,
+
(be) sore (afraid), strong, [
×
to years.

[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

ἡμέρα hēmera

ἡμέρα
hēméra,
hay-mer'-ah; feminine (with
implied) of a derivative of ἧμαι hēmai (to sit; akin to the base of
) meaning tame, i.e. gentle; day, i.e. (literally) the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole 24 hours (but several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes); figuratively, a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context):—age,
+
alway, (mid-)day (by day, (-ly)),
+
for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years.

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You didn't answer my question. "How do you know that?"

 

 

You've compared it to something Jews say today as if they are one and the same. Your question then assumes this is what I'm claiming. I was demonstrating to you above this is not the case. If what you're suggesting is true, then this would have Christ dying a week before passover which makes no sense.

 

I provided time lines above, how they match up well with the Passover falling on the Saturday Sabbath for that year 30 AD (which again happened in 33Ad as well) and scripture tells us this Sabbath was special.

 

So I am not sure what you are asking when you ask "how do you know that." I think I demonstrated why I believe that to be the case.

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It was called a Great Sabbath - which means the Passover fell on the Saturday Sabbath.

 

The fact that John explains great Sabbath shows it wasn't Saturday. Saturday is a Sabbath is a given. But, a Sabbath on another day of the week calls for an explanation. "Great Sabbath" doesn't mean two Sabbaths on the same day, but simply refers to the special Sabbaths such as Passover. Passover sometimes falls on Saturday and sometimes on any other day of the week. Another point, Matthew says Mary went to the tomb after the Sabbaths, plural in the Greek (even though translations don't carry the plural). But, the great Sabbath is referred to singularly. Mary went to the tomb after Jesus had been in the tomb for two Sabbath days, a Saturday and a separate high day.

 

[

We can know what year Jesus died I believe. There are very specific timing clues in scripture.

 

Most authorities place Jesus's death between 30 and 33 AD. But, even if t's 30 AD, there's really no way to identify what day was the 15th day of the 1st month, at least any way that's more accurate than three days and tree nights before sunset Saturday. It's completely illegitimate to extrapolate the current Hebrew calendar back to 30 AD.

 

"A special committee of the Sanhedrin, with its president as chairman, had the mandate to regulate and balance the solar with the lunar years. This so-called Calendar Council (Sod Haibbur) calculated the beginnings of the seasons (Tekufoth) on the basis of astronomical figures which had been handed down as a tradition of old. Whenever, after two or three years, the annual excess of 11 days had accumulated to approximately 30 days, a thirteenth month Adar II was inserted before Nisan in order to assure that Nisan and Passover would occur in Spring and not retrogress toward winter. However, the astronomical calculation was not the only basis for intercalation of a thirteenth month. The delay of the actual arrival of spring was another decisive factor. The Talmudic sources report that the Council intercalated a year when the barley in the fields had not yet ripened, when the fruit on the trees had not grown properly, when the winter rains had not stopped, when the roads for Passover pilgrims had not dried up, and when the young pigeons had not become fledged. The Council on intercalation considered the astronomical facts together with the religious requirements of Passover and the natural conditions of the country.

 

This method of observation and intercalation was in use throughout the period of the second temple (516 B.C.E - 70 C.E ), and about three centuries after its destruction, as long as there was an independent Sanhedrin. " source

 

They considered the weather when deciding the start of the new year. And, they considered the new moon to count the months, which can sometimes leaves them off a couple of days. And, it would be utter ignorance to doubt that politics didn't occasionally influence with the council decided when a new year or month started. It wasn't until the 4th-century AD that a mathematical model replaced observation for the calendar, and even then there were adjustments that were not part of the model. It wasn't until the 12-century AD that the Hebrew calendar got the years (from creation) that it as now. For all practical purposes, Passover fell on a random day of the week.

 

"Oh look, it has been very rainy. We better change the calendar to give the roads more time to dry so that people can get here for Passover."

 

PASSOVER WAS NOT ON SATURDAY. This we know because John had to explain why it was a Sabbath. This we know because Friday to Sunday is not three days and three nights.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Your source does not cite his sources.

 

But even so, I would be forced to observe one cannot dogmatically say the passover was not on a Saturday.

 

If the Jewish calendar is such an unknown, then one must go to other testimony, that of the first christians.

 

The Didache was written during the 1st century. Current scholarship puts it as early as mid 1st century. It tells us christians gathered on The Lord's Day, this is the day the Lord rose from the dead rather than the Sabbath.

14 On the Lord's Day

 

14:1
On the Lord's day, gather yourselves together and break bread, give thanks, but first confess your sins so that your sacrifice may be pure.

 

14:2
However, let no one who is at odds with his brother come together with you, until he has reconciled, so that your sacrifice may not be profaned.

 

14:3
For this is what the Lord has said: "For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the of hosts. . . . For I am a great King, says the Lord of hosts, and my name is reverenced among the nations."

 

This is further elaborated on by Ignatius:

Ignatius of Antioch

[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e., Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living
in the observance of the Lord's day,
on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death (
Letter to the Magnesians
8 [
A.D. 110
]).

The Didascalia also elaborates on it - the Didascalia offers the understanding of Christians of the time:

The Didascalia

The apostles further appointed;
On the first day of the week
let there be service, and the reading of the holy scriptures, and the oblation [sacrifice of the Mass], because
on the first day of the week
[sunday]
our Lord rose from the place of the dead
, and on the first day of the week he arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week he ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week he will appear at last with the angels of heaven (
Didascalia
2 [
A.D. 225
]).

This is further elaborated on by Victorinus

Victorinus

The sixth day
[Friday] is called parasceve, that is to say,
the preparation of the kingdom
.
. . . On this day also, on account of
the passion of the Lord Jesus Christ
, we make either a station to God or a fast.
On the seventh day he rested
from all his works, and blessed it, and sanctified it. On the former day we are accustomed to fast rigorously, that
on the Lord's Day
we may go forth to our bread with giving of thanks. Let the parasceve become a rigorous fast, lest we should appear to observe any Sabbath with the Jews . . . which Sabbath he [Christ] in his body abolished (
The Creation of the World
[
A.D. 300
]).

It has always been the understanding of christians from the beginning that Jesus died on Friday and rose on Sunday. If this understanding was not correct, the Early Church Fathers, who were quick to correct error, would have discussed it. There is no such discussion in all of the ECF's. Edited by thereselittleflower

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The fact that John explains great Sabbath shows it wasn't Saturday. Saturday is a Sabbath is a given. But, a Sabbath on another day of the week calls for an explanation. "Great Sabbath" doesn't mean two Sabbaths on the same day, but simply refers to the special Sabbaths such as Passover. Passover sometimes falls on Saturday and sometimes on any other day of the week. Another point, Matthew says Mary went to the tomb after the Sabbaths, plural in the Greek (even though translations don't carry the plural). But, the great Sabbath is referred to singularly. Mary went to the tomb after Jesus had been in the tomb for two Sabbath days, a Saturday and a separate high day.

That's very persuasive to me. I'll be looking for an intelligent rebuttal.

 

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That's very persuasive to me. I'll be looking for an intelligent rebuttal.

 

Even if sabbath is spoken of in the plural (which I have not confirmed myself), this does not mandate we must understand this to be 2 consecutive days. 2 happening concurrently on the same day would still be 2 sabbaths.

 

However, in investigating this further I find the form of sabbath used in the Greek is at this verse is:

σαββάτων

I also find the plural form referring to more than one sabbath:

plural
τά
σάββατα
, of several sabbaths,
(some refer this to 2).

In regards to the form used in Matthew I find:

b.
plural,
τά
σαββάτων
(for the singular)
of a single sabbath,
sabbath-day
(the use of the plural being occasioned either by the plural names of festivals

http://biblehub.com/greek/4521.htm

 

 

 

I also find that this same form used in Matthew:

 

σαββάτων

 

is also used in

Luke 4

And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue
on the Sabbath,
and stood up to read.
And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
“T
HE
S
PIRIT OF THE
L
ORD IS UPON
M
E
,

B
ECAUSE
H
E ANOINTED
M
E TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR
.

H
E HAS SENT
M
E TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES
,

A
ND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND
,

T
O SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED
,
T
O PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE
L
ORD
.”

This happened on one particular sabbath.

 

Additionally:

Sabbath(s) and Sunday (σάββατον)

 

Vocabulary

 

Acts 20:7 reads, “On the first day of the week (μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων), when we were gathered together to break bread ….” (ESV).

There is an obvious question for the Greek newbie as to why μία is translated as “first” when we learned it as “one,“ and why σαββάτων is translated as “week” when we learned it as “sabbaths”? Why “first day of the week” and not “one of the sabbaths”?

Part of the key is in the nature of the word σάββατον. It is not as straight forward as one might expect. A quick perusal of BDAG show these options.

1. “the seventh day of the week,” hence, the “Sabbath.” It can be used in the singular but also the plural, and here is the interesting part;
in the plural
it can refer to multiple days but
it can also refer to a single day.
Why, you say, would they do that? I have no idea. The attestation given in BDAG is significant and the point can’t really be debated. There is evidently something
idiomatic
in how the word is used such that a plural can refer to
a single day.

 

 

So I don't see a convincing argument for the form used in Matthew to denote multiple individual sabbath days occuring between when Jesus died and the women went to the tomb on the first day of the week.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by thereselittleflower

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Your source does not cite his sources.

 

Maybe not, but it's easy enough to verify. Before the 4th-century AD, Jews didn't have a calendar to hang on the wall. the Jewish leaders would somewhat arbitrarily decide when years and months started. "Trees are starting to leaf, time to start a new year." Based on a calendar, no one can say Passover was on any particular day of the Passion week. But, a Saturday Passover doesn't fit the Bible.

 

The 7th day Sabbath was, always Saturday. The tomb was discovered to be empty Sunday morning. The weeks aren't arbitrary (although, I wouldn't rule out a week or two other than 7 days errantly slipping in at some point, especially after 70 AD). Your quotes from the Didache, Ignatius, and The Didascalia don't address the question of which day of the week Jesus was crucified. We all agree that the empty tomb was discovered Sunday morning. Their source, and my source, starts with holy scripture.

 

Victorinus, writing about 300 AD, believed Jesus was crucified on Friday. He doesn't attempt to support that statement. I know the belief that Jesus died on Friday goes far back. The seed of a number doctrines roundly rejected by Protestants, for lack of biblical support, also go back as far as 300 AD. Even doctrines the Roman Catholic Church rejects can be fond before 300 AD.

 

I envy the rich tradition of the Roman Catholic Church, but I wouldn't raise a tradition to the level of doctrine. I'm fine with celebrating Good Friday, but like Christmas, I doubt it is the actual day.

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I envy the rich tradition of the Roman Catholic Church,

 

 

 

That brought a smile to my face Cornelius, thank you for that. :)

 

I wanted to share more about what I have found in going back through Church history, and I want to respect that this is your forum and not offer it in debate but for conversation and consideration.

 

As far as Victorinus goes, what I find is he was writing about something universally believed and accepted, something the ECF's, who always spoke out against error, never spoke out against. There is no contradiction in the Early Church Fathers to holding the crucifixion occurred on Friday and Jesus rose on Sunday. This was the early belief of the christians from apostolic times forward.

 

I thought you might find it interesting to see such teaching, beliefs and practices through the first centuries of the christian faith can be traced so well:

JUSTIN MARTYR AD 100-165
(Apology for the Christians)

"But Sunday is the day upon which we whold our common assembly, bcause it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For
he was crucified on the day before that of Saturn
; and
on the day after that of Saturn
, which is the day of the Sun,
He appeared to His apostles and disciple
s and taught them what we now submit to our consideration."

 

"And
on the day called Sunday
, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles, or the writings of the prophets, are read, as long as time permist."

(Chapter 67).

 

 

BARNABS
(Epistle of Barnabas, chapter XII, in which Barnabas argues in terms of the symbolism of the days of the week, each of which is "as a thousand years," and then he looks through a telescope into the future, beyond a seventh day Millennium, to the "eighth day," of which the resurrection of Jesus forms the type.)

Verse 10 - "For which cause we observe
the eight day with gladness, in which Jesus rose from the dead
; having manifested Himself to His disciples, ascended into heaven."

 

IGNATIUS Late 1st, early 2nd Century
.

"The Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death, that we may be found discples of Jesus Christ."

"And
after
the observance of
the Sabbath
, let every friend of Christ keep the
Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day
, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week]."

(Epsitle to the Magnesians, Chatper IX)

 

"During the Sabbath He continued under the earth in the tomb in which Joseph of Armiathaea had laid Him.
At the dawning of the Lord's day He arose from the dead,
according to what was spoken by Himself, "As Jonah was three dayas and three nights in the Whale's belly so shall the Son of man also be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

The day of preparation
, then, comprises
the pasion
;

the
Sabbath embraces the buria
l;

the
Lord's Day contains the resurrection
.
"

(The Epistles to the Trallans, chapter 9)

Just a note, In scripture the only day referred to for "preparation" is Friday in preparation for the Saturday Sabbath.

 

 

CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA AD 155-220

"He does the commandment according to the Gospel and keeps the Lord's day, whenever he puts away an evil mind...glorifying the Lord's resurrection in himself."

 

"A christian ... observers the Lord's Day, thereby glorifying the resurrection of the Lord.
The eigth day is the Lord's Day
."

(Miscellanies Vii.xii.76.4)

 

 

TERTULLIAN AD 160-220

"The Lords Day is the holy day of the Christian church. The Lord's Day is the Christian's solemnity."

"
Sunday we give to joy. We observe the day of the Lord's resurrection.
"

 

ORIGEN AD 185-254

"If it be objected to us on this subject that we ourselves are acustomed to observe certain days, as for example the Lord's day, the Preparation, the Passover, or Pentacost, I have to answer that to the perfect Chrsitian, who is ever in his thoughts, words, and deeds, serving his natural Lord, God the Word, all his days are the Lord's, and he is always keeping the Lord's day."

(Against Celcus, book 8 chap, xxii)

 

DIONYSIUS OF CORINTH AD 170
Letter to the Church of Rome

"Today we kept the Lord's Day holy, in which we read your letter."

 

MELITO, BISHOP OF SARDIS AD 177

wrote a treatise on The Lord;s Day which has been lost

 

CYPRIAN AD 200-258.

"
The eighth day
, that is the
first day after the Sabbath
, and
the Lord's Day
."

(Epistles 58, Sec 4)

 

 

PETER, BISHOP OF ALEXANDRIA. Died martyr AD 311

"
But the Lord's day
we celebrate as a day of joy, because
on it He rose again
, on which day we have received it for a custom not even to bow the knee. But on the Lord's day we ought not to fast, for it is a day of joy for the resurrection of the Lord, and on it, says he, we have received that we ought not even to bow the knee."

(The Canonical Epistle, Canon XV)

This is the consistent teaching and practice of the christian church from the beginning.

 

And scriptures make special mention, referencing the first day, the Lord's Day as well:

On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight.

 

 

On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.

 

On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,

All of this presents one whole, clear, consistent unanimous picture.

 

With all the uncertainty over calendars, it seems to me then one must turn to the testimony of the earliest believers, and their testimony is consistent and clear that Jesus died on Friday, the day of preparation for the Saturday Sabbath, laid in the ground all through the Sabbath, and rose on Sunday, the first day of the week, the eighth day, The Lord's Day.

Edited by thereselittleflower

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Even if sabbath is spoken of in the plural (which I have not confirmed myself), this does not mandate we must understand this to be 2 consecutive days. 2 happening concurrently on the same day would still be 2 sabbaths.

 

John 19:31: ... μεγάλη ἡ ἡμέρα ἐκείνου τοῦ σαββάτου ...

John 19:31: .... a high day Sabbath...

 

Matthew 28:1 Ὀψὲ δὲ σαββάτων...

Matthew 28:1 After the SabbathS...

 

Jesus was taken off the cross so that he wouldn't still be there on a high day (Passover) Sabbath. Mary went to the tomb after the SabbathS. John doesn't use a plural because there is just one Sabbath, Passover, that Jesus is being taken down for. Matthew uses the plural Sabbaths because two Sabbaths had passed, not just one. If Matthew just said "after the Sabbath" (singular), that could imply that Mary went to the tomb after the first (Passover) Sabbath, but she went after the second (Saturday) Sabbath.

 

I also find the plural form referring to more than one sabbath:

plural
τά
σάββατα
, of several sabbaths,
(some refer this to 2).

In regards to the form used in Matthew I find:

b.
plural,
τά
σαββάτων
(for the singular)
of a single sabbath,
sabbath-day
(the use of the plural being occasioned either by the plural names of festivals

 

Acts 17:2 refers to three Sabbaths, so the plural of Sabbath is used (English translations say "three Sabbath days"). Concerning b., Plural means more than one. It's a dubious assertion that plural is a figure of speech for a single day of a festival (which, by the way, Passover has two Sabbaths, the first and last days). We see in John (see above) using Sabbath (singular) to refer to the one Passover Sabbath Jesus was taken down for.

 

Luke 4

And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue
on the Sabbath,
and stood up to read.

 

Luke 4:16: ... εἰσῆλθεν κατὰ τὸ εἰωθὸς αὐτῷ ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῶν σαββάτων...

Luke 3:16: ... He entered according to his custom on the SabbathS... [into the synagogue]

 

Plural means more than one, even if English translators like to use Sabbath only in singular form. When the NT uses the plural of Sabbath, it means more than one.

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Just a note, In scripture the only day referred to for "preparation" is Friday in preparation for the Saturday Sabbath.

 

John 19:14 Now it was the day of Preparation of the Passover [sabbath]...

 

All Sabbaths, including the days of rest and no work required by Leviticus for the Feasts, all would require a day of preparation, no matter what day of the week they fall on.

 

The day of preparation, then, comprises the pasion;

the Sabbath embraces the burial;

the Lord's Day contains the resurrection."

(The Epistles to the Trallans, chapter 9)

 

The Epistles to the Trallans, at least not my copy, doesn't say that. And, it's well known that the Passion and the entombment (Jesus wasn't buried) were on the same day. Even still, that quote doesn't technically say that the day of preparation, the time of the Passion, was any day other than Wednesday.

 

JUSTIN MARTYR AD 100-165 (Apology for the Christians)

"But Sunday is the day upon which we whold our common assembly, bcause it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For he was crucified on the day before that of Saturn; and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, He appeared to His apostles and disciples and taught them what we now submit to our consideration."

 

I don't think I could argue for Wednesday based on statements of Early Church fathers. But, most of them don't appear to address the issue, and I've seen no attempt by any of them to harmonize three days and three nights with Friday evening to Sunday morning. These men don't rise to the level of scripture and maybe Martyr's statement is cerimonial, like how we move some holidays to Monday, regardless of the actual day they would otherwise be on. I think Good Friday is best kept on Friday.

 

 

 

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John 19:14 Now it was the day of Preparation of the Passover [sabbath]...

 

All Sabbaths, including the days of rest and no work required by Leviticus for the Feasts, all would require a day of preparation, no matter what day of the week they fall on.

 

 

Something that is of interest here though is the festival sabbaths required no servile work, while the Saturday sabbaths required no work of any kind so there were distinctions in the observance of these sabbaths.

 

You might also find this interesting:

 

 

And it was the preparation of the passover,.... So the Jews (x) say, that Jesus suffered on the eve of the passover; and the author of the blasphemous account of his life says (y),
it was the eve both of the passover and the sabbath;
which account so far agrees with the evangelic history; but then this preparation of the passover was not of the passover lamb, for that had been prepared and eaten the night before.

 

Nor do I find that there was any particular day which was called "the preparation of the passover" in such sense, and much less that this day was the day before the eating of the passover. According to the law in
the lamb for the passover was to be separated from the rest of the flock on the tenth day of the month, and to be kept up till the fourteenth;
but this is never called the preparation of the passover
; and was it so called, it cannot be intended here; the preparing and making ready the passover the evangelists speak of, were on the same day it was eaten, and design the getting ready a place to eat it in, and things convenient for that purpose, and the killing the lamb, and dressing it, and the like,
there is what the Jews call , which was a space of fifteen days before the passover, and began at the middle of the thirty days before the feast, in which they used to ask questions, and explain the traditions concerning the passover (z):
but this is never called the preparation of the passover
: and on the night of the fourteenth month they sought diligently, in every hole and corner of their houses, for leavened bread, in order to remove it (a);
but this also never went by any such name:
wherefore, if any respect is had to the preparation for the passover, it must either design the preparation of the "Chagigah", which was a grand festival, commonly kept on the fifteenth day, and which was sometimes called the passover; or else the preparation for the whole feast all the remaining days of it; See Gill on
but it seems best of all to understand it
only of the preparation for the sabbath
, which, because it was in the passover week, is called the passover preparation day: and it may be observed, that it is sometimes only called "the day of the preparation", and "the preparation",
and sometimes the "Jews' preparation day",
and it is explained by the Evangelist
. "It was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath"; on which they both prepared themselves for the sabbath, and food to eat on that day; and this being the time of the passover likewise, the preparation was the greater: and therefore to distinguish this preparation day for the sabbath, from others, it is called the passover preparation; nor have I observed that any other day is called the preparation but that before the sabbath:

 

 

 

The Epistles to the Trallans, at least not my copy, doesn't say that. And, it's well known that the Passion and the entombment (Jesus wasn't buried) were on the same day. Even still, that quote doesn't technically say that the day of preparation, the time of the Passion, was any day other than Wednesday.

 

You can find it here at ccel at the end of this page:

 

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.iv.ix.html

 

Given how other ECF's clearly specified 3 days starting the day before Saturday, including Saturday, and ending on Sunday with the resurrection, I believe it would be a stretch to say that there are more than 3 individual days being spoken of here by Ignatius given the naming of days used by some of the other ECF's.

 

For me, the entire picture, when looked at as a whole, in regards to the testimony of the ECF's, paints a uniform, unwavering picture of Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

 

I don't think I could argue for Wednesday based on statements of Early Church fathers. But, most of them don't appear to address the issue, and I've seen no attempt by any of them to harmonize three days and three nights with Friday evening to Sunday morning. These men don't rise to the level of scripture and maybe Martyr's statement is cerimonial, like how we move some holidays to Monday, regardless of the actual day they would otherwise be on. I think Good Friday is best kept on Friday.

 

 

And yes, I agree their writings don't rise to the level of scripture, but I think we both agree they are very important for they do give us testimony as to what Christians believed, how they worshiped and practiced their faith.

 

I have to agree that Good Friday is best kept on Friday. :D

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Something that is of interest here though is the festival sabbaths required no servile work, while the Saturday sabbaths required no work of any kind so there were distinctions in the observance of these sabbaths.

 

I don't understand Gill saying there the day before Passover in never called preparation of the Passover, when the Bible uses that phrase. Also, if Saturday has stronger limits on work, it would be very odd that John refers to Passover as the reason for preparation, assuming they were the same day. You'd think the more restrictive Sabbath would be invoked. I think prep for a big feast and a funeral would both be done before either Sabbath, but if anyone should disagree, that makes the case stronger that the Passover rest was a different day from the Saturday rest.

 

Gill seems to argue that the Passover feast had already eaten, therefor the assumed Friday day of prep for the Passover couldn't have really been the day of prep for the Passover. In other words, Gill argues that the Passover feast was on Thursday ("This preparation of the passover was not of the passover lamb, for that had been prepared and eaten the night before.")...which is what I've been saying this whole time, but for a different reason. That's another can of worms I'm not going to get into right now.

 

For me, the entire picture, when looked at as a whole, in regards to the testimony of the ECF's, paints a uniform, unwavering picture of Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

 

I've already conceded a lack of support from the ECFs for a Wednesday crucifixion. But, the Friday position isn't so strong. Many of them eagerly and clearly speak of the Sunday resurrection. But, in your previous post of quotes, only one actually asserts a Friday crucifixion, Justin Martyr. Ignatius doesn't say Friday, maybe implies it, but in placing the "burial" on Saturday, he shows he either doesn't know what he's talking about, or more likely, he's speaking ceremonially, not literally. Maybe the ECFs mostly stay away from mentioning Friday, when the have no hesitation to mention Sunday, because there was disagreement back then about which day Jesus was crucified.

 

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I don't understand Gill saying there the day before Passover in never called preparation of the Passover, when the Bible uses that phrase. Also, if Saturday has stronger limits on work, it would be very odd that John refers to Passover as the reason for preparation, assuming they were the same day. You'd think the more restrictive Sabbath would be invoked. I think prep for a big feast and a funeral would both be done before either Sabbath, but if anyone should disagree, that makes the case stronger that the Passover rest was a different day from the Saturday rest.

 

Gill seems to argue that the Passover feast had already eaten, therefor the assumed Friday day of prep for the Passover couldn't have really been the day of prep for the Passover. In other words, Gill argues that the Passover feast was on Thursday ("This preparation of the passover was not of the passover lamb, for that had been prepared and eaten the night before.")...which is what I've been saying this whole time, but for a different reason. That's another can of worms I'm not going to get into right now.

 

I've already conceded a lack of support from the ECFs for a Wednesday crucifixion. But, the Friday position isn't so strong. Many of them eagerly and clearly speak of the Sunday resurrection. But, in your previous post of quotes, only one actually asserts a Friday crucifixion, Justin Martyr. Ignatius doesn't say Friday, maybe implies it, but in placing the "burial" on Saturday, he shows he either doesn't know what he's talking about, or more likely, he's speaking ceremonially, not literally. Maybe the ECFs mostly stay away from mentioning Friday, when the have no hesitation to mention Sunday, because there was disagreement back then about which day Jesus was crucified.

 

I do appreciate the conversation, and please I hope you don't feel I am not approaching this to say "I'm right and you're wrong." I find discussions like this to be valuable as they cause me to look deeper into the reasons we believe as we do.

 

Regarding the difference between work prohibited on the 7th day Sabbath and the work prohibited on festival sabbaths, we can look up the phrase "ye shall do no servile work"

[h=3]Leviticus 23:7 Passover Feast

Leviticus 23:25 Feast of Trumpets

Leviticus 23:35 The Feast of Booths

Numbers 28:25 Passover[/h]

This is distinguished from the prohibition of work on the 7th day Sabbath " You shall do no work" "you shall not do any work"

[h=3]Leviticus 23:3[/h]

[h=3]Leviticus 23:31[/h]

[h=3]Exodus 20:10[/h]

 

I also think John shows he was actually invoking the stronger, more restrictive 7th day Sabbath, when he describes the behavior of the Jewish leaders not wanting to defile themselves so they could eat the feast.

John 18:28
Then they led Jesus from Caiaphas' presence into the
(Roman)
palace
(of Pontius Pilate).
It was now early morning and the Jews themselves did not go into the palace,
for fear that they would be contaminated and would not be able to eat the Passover.

 

The argument is made, regarding the conjunction of the Passover with the 7th day Sabbath, is if it was just the Passover feast alone, why would going to the Roman Palace the day before contaminate or deflie them and prevent them from eating the Passover?

 

 

John is also more clear about the "day of preparation" at the end of that chapter when he says:

Therefore because of
the Jewish day of preparation
, since the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there.

 

 

This would refer to the day of preparation mentioned in the Old Testament for the 7th day Sabbath as in the Old Testament only the day before the 7th day Sabbath is referred to in such a manner. So this is another stronger indicator this all happened on Friday.

 

Now I realize that for you a Friday crucifixion is not so evident as it is for me, but at least we agree that the ECF's don't support a Wed crucifixion. :)

 

 

I hope you will consider something further, which goes back to something I said at the beginning.

 

If Christ didn't die on Friday, but on Thursday, he would have been buried late on Thursday before sundown, so

  1. Friday sundown would be one day,
  2. Saturday sundown would be 2 days, and
  3. Sunday sundown would be 3 days.

But Jesus was not in the tomb till Sunday sundown. At dawn on Sunday the tomb was empty, and so we come back to the sign of Jonah not needing to be understood as a literal 3 days and 3 nights, but rather as an idiom where part of a day stands for the whole day. Here, part of the day on Sunday would stand for the whole day. So this idiom would indeed be a synecdoche.

 

Since it becomes apparent that a synecdoche is being employed, there is nothing then that requires that the first day be a full 24 hours either, which then shows us scripture would then support Friday as the day of crucifixion and burial, Saturday in the ground, and resurrection on Sunday even though there is not a full 72 hours in the ground, just as we have seen ECF's attest to - as Justin Martyr, our earliest source who lived from the end 1st century into the 2nd, and had the words of the Apostles from those who heard the Apostles ringing in his ears:

"For
he was crucified on the day before that of Saturn
; and
on the day after that of Saturn
, which is the day of the Sun,
He appeared to His apostles and disciple
s "

 

 

 

I hope this gives food for thought and consideration.

 

 

 

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Victorinus

The sixth day [Friday] is called parasceve, that is to say, the preparation of the kingdom. . . . On this day also, on account of the passion of the Lord Jesus Christ, we make either a station to God or a fast. On the seventh day he rested from all his works, and blessed it, and sanctified it. On the former day we are accustomed to fast rigorously, that on the Lord's Day we may go forth to our bread with giving of thanks. Let the parasceve become a rigorous fast, lest we should appear to observe any Sabbath with the Jews . . . which Sabbath he [Christ] in his body abolished (The Creation of the World [A.D. 300]).

 

After checking this source, that's someone else who thinks Jesus was arrested on Wednesday. Even though he thinks Jesus died on Friday, the Bible is clear Jesus died on the day he was arrested.

 

 

The man Christ Jesus, the originator of these things whereof we have above spoken, was taken prisoner by wicked hands, by a quaternion of soldiers. Therefore on account of His captivity by a quaternion, on account of the majesty of His works,–that the seasons also, wholesome to humanity, joyful for the harvests, tranquil for the tempests, may roll on,–therefore we make the fourth day a station or a supernumerary fast - from the same text as the above quote.

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After checking this source, that's someone else who thinks Jesus was arrested on Wednesday. Even though he thinks Jesus died on Friday, the Bible is clear Jesus died on the day he was arrested.

 

 

The man Christ Jesus, the originator of these things whereof we have above spoken, was taken prisoner by wicked hands, by a quaternion of soldiers. Therefore on account of His captivity by a quaternion, on account of the majesty of His works,–that the seasons also, wholesome to humanity, joyful for the harvests, tranquil for the tempests, may roll on,–therefore we make the fourth day a station or a supernumerary fast - from the same text as the above quote.

 

 

This has nothing to do with the DAY of the week that Jesus was actually taken prisoner, but with the number 4 itself in all the examples given:

Now is manifested the
reason
of the
why the fourth day is called the
Tetras
, why we
fast
even to the ninth hour, or even to the evening, or why there should be a passing over even to the next day. Therefore this world of ours is composed of
four elements
— fire, water,
heaven
, earth. These four elements, therefore,
form
the quaternion
of times or seasons. The sun, also, and the moon constitute throughout the space of the year
four
seasons
— of spring, summer, autumn, winter; and these seasons
make a quaternion
. And to proceed further still from that principle, lo, there are
four living creatures
before
God's
throne,
four
, four rivers flowing in
paradise
;
four generations of people
from
to
, from
to
, from
to
, from
to
Christ
the
Lord
, the
; and
four living creatures,
viz.
, a
, a calf, a lion, an eagle; and four rivers, the
Pison
, the
Gihon
, the
Tigris
, and the Euphrates. The man
Christ
Jesus
, the originator of these things whereof we have above spoken, was taken prisoner by
hands,
by a quaternion
of soldiers
. Therefore on account of His
captivity
by a
quaternion
, on account of the majesty of His works
—that the seasons also, wholesome to humanity,
joyful
for the harvests, tranquil for the tempests, may roll on
—therefore we make
the fourth day
a station or a
supernumerary
fast
.

 

 

He says nothing about the day of the week Jesus was taken prisoner but has everything to do with the number of soldiers who came and took Jesus as a prisoner - a QUATERnion. If he meant this to signify the day of the week Jesus was taken prisoner, he would have used the day of the week which would have been a much stronger and more direct example than use the quaternion of soldiers.

 

The subject is not Christ's passion and death at all. The subject is his mediation on God's CREATION. In fact, it is entitled "On the Creation of the World"

 

Here is the fuller context which precedes the quote above:

On the Creation of the World

 

To me, as I meditate and consider in my mind concerning the creation of this world in which we are kept enclosed, even such is the rapidity of that creation; as is contained in the book of
, which he wrote about its creation, and which is called Genesis. God produced that entire mass for the adornment of His majesty in six days; on the seventh to which He
it . . . with a blessing. For this reason, therefore, because in the septenary number of days both heavenly and earthly things are ordered, in place of the beginning I will consider of this seventh day after the principle of all matters pertaining to the number of seven; and as far as I shall be able, I will endeavour to portray the day of the divine power to that consummation.

 

In the beginning God made the light, and divided it in the exact measure of twelve hours by day and by night, for this reason, doubtless, that day might bring over the night as an occasion of rest for men's labours; that, again, day might overcome, and thus that labour might be refreshed with this alternate change of rest, and that repose again might be tempered by the exercise of day. On the fourth day He made two lights in the heaven, the greater and the lesser, that the one might rule over the day, the other over the night,
— the lights of the sun and moon and He placed the rest of the stars in heaven, that they might shine upon the earth, and by their positions distinguish the seasons, and years, and months, and days, and hours.

Now is manifested the
reason
of the
why the fourth day is called the
Tetras
, why we
fast
even to the ninth hour, or even to the evening, or why there should be a passing over even to the next day. Therefore this world of ours is composed of
four elements
— fire, water,
heaven
, earth. These four elements, therefore,
form
the quaternion
of times or seasons. The sun, also, and the moon constitute throughout the space of the year
four
seasons
— of spring, summer, autumn, winter; and these seasons
make a quaternion
. And to proceed further still from that principle, lo, there are
four living creatures
before
God's
throne,
four
, four rivers flowing in
paradise
;
four generations of people
from
to
, from
to
, from
to
, from
to
Christ
the
Lord
, the
; and
four living creatures,
viz.
, a
, a calf, a lion, an eagle; and four rivers, the
Pison
, the
Gihon
, the
Tigris
, and the Euphrates. The man
Christ
Jesus
, the originator of these things whereof we have above spoken, was taken prisoner by
hands,
by a quaternion
of soldiers
. Therefore on account of His
captivity
by a
quaternion
, on account of the majesty of His works
—that the seasons also, wholesome to humanity,
joyful
for the harvests, tranquil for the tempests, may roll on
—therefore we make
the fourth day
a station or a
supernumerary
fast
.

 

 

 

Your quote is all about QUARTERNIONS and because of these Quaraternions they celebrated the 4th day of the week with fasting.

 

 

He goes on to talk about the 5th day and then immediately onto the SIXTH DAY which he labels as the passion of the Lord:

On the fifth day
the land and water brought forth their
progenies
.
On the sixth day
the things that were wanting were
created
; and thus
God
raised
up man from the soil, as lord of all the things which He
created
upon the earth and the water. Yet He
created
and
archangels
before He
created
man, placing
spiritual
beings before earthly ones. For light was made before sky and the earth. This sixth day is called
parasceve,
that is to say, the preparation of the
kingdom
. For He perfected
Adam
, whom
He made
after His image and likeness. But for this reason He completed His works before He
created
and fashioned man, lest perchance they should
assert that they had been His helpers.
On this day also, on account of the
passion
of the
, we make either a station to
, or a
fast
.

 

He follows that with THE SEVENTH DAY:

On the seventh day
He rested from all His works, and
blessed
it, and sanctified it. On the former day we are accustomed to
fast
rigorously, that on the
Lord's
day we may go forth
to our bread with giving of thanks. And let the
parasceve
become a rigorous
fast
, lest we should appear to observe any
with the
, which
Christ
Himself, the
Lord
of the
, says by His
that
His
;
which
He in His body abolished,
although, nevertheless, He had formerly Himself commanded
that
should not pass over the eighth day, which day very frequently happens on the
, as we read written in the
.
, foreseeing the hardness of that people, on the
raised
up his hands, therefore, and thus
figuratively
fastened himself to a
cross
.
And in the battle they were sought for by the foreigners on the
, that they might be taken captive, and, as if by the very strictness of the
law
, might be fashioned to the avoidance of its teaching.

 

 

So, in the proper context, he actually says something quite different than you understood from that portion you quoted

 

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