The Protestant theological system of John Calvin and his successors, which develops Luther's doctrine of justification by faith alone and emphasizes the grace of God and the doctrine of predestination.

Who places limits on Christ's atonement, God or man?

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    Who places limits on Christ's atonement, God or man?

    Calvin's failure:


    Calvin maintain's that God limits Christ's atonement.

    Calvin say's; God place's on Christ, "only", the sins of those, whom, God himself has chosen for salvation.

    The real question is: Who places limits on Christ's atonement, God or man?

    1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also """for the sins of the whole world""".

    John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, """which taketh away the sin of the world""".

    John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give """for the life of the world""".

    1 Timothy 2:6 Who """gave himself a ransom for all""", to be testified in due time.

    The most common is that, if God is all-loving, how could Christ not die for everyone? Doesn’t God love each and every person.

    THESE VERSES SHOW HE LOVES """ALL"""

    1 John 2:2 """for the sins of the whole world""", John 1:29 """which taketh away the sin of the world""", John 6:51 """for the life of the world""", 1 Timothy 2:6 Who """gave himself a ransom for all"""

    These 4 verses show Christ's death paid for EVERY sin & His payment encludes EVERY person """ALL""".

    But it dosn't do ANYONE any good """""until they appropriate Christ's sin atoning redemptive sacrifice by faith/belief"""".

    THESE VERSES SHOW ITS ONLY OUR CHOICE THAT LIMITS ATONEMENT

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Believers Have Eternal Life
    John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son "hath" everlasting life & he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him
    (WHOEVER BELIEVES ON JESUS """HAS""" PRESENT TENSE ETERNAL LIFE)

    Unbelievers Are Condemned
    John 3:18 But he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    (Unbelievers in the son ARE ALREADY & WILL be condemed)

    EVERYONE HAS A CHOICE:
    "BELIEVE" on the "SON" & you """HAVE""" Eternal Life!

    Or "don't Believe & face the wrath of God"

    John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    (NOTE: ""ETERNAL LIFE"" & """THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH""". NOT UNTIL THE NEXT TIME YOU MAKE A MISTAKE)

    John 11:26 Jesus said; whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
    (WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN JESUS. SHALL NEVER DIE)

    Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    (WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UOPN THE NAME OF JESUS. SHALL BE SAVED)

    Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
    (WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN JESUS. SHALL NOT BE ASHAMED)

    1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
    (WHOSOEVER SHALL CONFESS JESUS. WILL RECEIVE GOD"S HOLY SPIRIT WITHIN)

    Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    The only limit on ones salvation is:

    Choice (A) Receive God's grace & place your FAITH in the Sin Atoning Sacrifice found in the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus the Christ

    Choice (B) Reject God's grace remain in unbelief. The only unforgivable sin, I.E. blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is UNBELIEF!

    A favorite Calvinist scripture:
    John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
    (Here Christ is alive & has yet to fulfil the laws reqiured payment for sin)

    News Alert Christ has made the payment: Note """ALL""" in the verse. Will be drawn:
    John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, """will draw all men unto me""".
    (The call to salvation is extended to everyone. But, salvation comes only to those who are willing to believe.)


    (A sinless Christ, 1 Pet 2:22, 2 Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, 1 Jn 3:5 1 Pet 1:19. Christ didn't pay for his own sins, HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY.

    Christ died and paid for the sins of every believer. That ""chooses"" to accept God's grace & place's thier FAITH in the Sin Atoning Sacrifice found in Christ's Death, Burial and Resurrection.

    #2
    Originally posted by GraceOne View Post
    Calvin's failure:

    Calvin maintain's that God limits Christ's atonement.
    Calvin say's; God place's on Christ, "only", the sins of those, whom, God himself has chosen for salvation.
    The real question is: Who places limits on Christ's atonement, God or man?

    Limited Attonement is one of the least important and most misrepresented aspects of Calvinism.
    The question is which of the following is true:
    a) God is punishing the same sin twice, once on the cross with Jesus and again in Hell with the sinner.
    b) Only those sins which God has actually forgiven (the sins of His sheep) were paid on the cross and the reprobate pays for his own sins in Hell.

    The options are mutually exclusive. If ALL sin was forgiven at the cross, then you arrive at Universalism (everyone is going to heaven) which the Bible does not teach.

    The real place to start any discussion is ... "Are people capable of choosing God?"
    The Bible says "No."
    Last edited by atpollard; 10-11-2017, 08:07 PM. Reason: typo
    Comment>

      #3
      I respectfully disagree:

      Ephesians 2:
      8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
      (IT'S GOD'S GIFT OF GRACE = UNDESERVED/UNEARNED FAVOR. THAT WE ACCESS THRU OUR FAITH IN CHRIST'S SIN ATONING SACRIFICIAL REDEMPTIVE PAYMENT OF JESUS THE CHRIST)

      I Corinthians 15: (AMP)
      1 Now brothers and sisters, let me remind you [once again] of the good news [of salvation] which I preached to you, which you welcomed and accepted and on which you stand [by faith].
      (GOOD NEWS I.E. THE GOSPEL OF SALVATION)

      2 By this faith you are saved [reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose], if you hold firmly to the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain [just superficially and without complete commitment].
      (SAVED THROUGH FAITH)

      3 For I passed on to you as of """first importance""" what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to [that which] the Scriptures [foretold],
      ("""FIRST IMPORTANCE""")

      4 and that He was buried, and that He was [bodily] raised on the third day according to [that which] the Scriptures [foretold],
      ("""FIRST IMPORTANCE""" IS HOW CHRIST DIED, WAS BURIED & RESURRECTED ON THE 3RD DAY)

      Rom 10:
      8 The word is near you, even in your mouth, & in your heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach

      9 If you will confess with thy mouth that Jesus is Lord, & and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved

      10 For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; & with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
      (GOD CREDITS OUR BELIEF IN JESUS RESURRECTION WITH A DECLARATION OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. SALVATION COMES WHEN WE CONFESS JESUS AS LORD & BELIEVE HE ROSE FROM THE GRAVE)

      11 For the scripture says, Whoever believes on Jesus shall not be ashamed.
      (Whoever BELIEVES! Places their FAITH in Jesus. Not who ever works for it!)

      12 There is no difference between the Jew & the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him

      13 13 Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved
      (CONFESS JESUS DEATH, BURIAL & RESURRECTION & BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART THAT GOD RAISED JESUS FROM THE GRAVE. AND YOU WILL BE SAVED!)

      HERES WHAT HAPPENS AT THE MOMENT YOU ACCEPT CHRIST:
      Eph 1:3 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed ""ye were sealed with that holy Spirit''" of promise
      (WHATS THE "GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION"? AFTER YOU BELIEVED IN THE SIN ATONING DEATH, BURIAL & RESURRECTION OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. YOU WERE - "PAST TENSE"" SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT)

      14 Which is the down payment of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession
      (YOUR SALVATION WAS SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT & IS GUARANTEED BY GOD. AT THE MOMENT YOU PLACED YOUR FAITH/BELIEF/TRUST IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST)

      John 5:24 Jesus said; Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and """shall not come into condemnation"""
      (HE THAT ""BELIEVES"" ON JESUS SIN ATONING DEATH, BURIAL & RESURRECTION. "not works for" HAS "present tense" ETERNAL LIFE. AND WILL NEVER BE """CONDEMNED""" "judged for any sin". JESUS PAID FOR ALL THEIR SINS)

      Believers "HAVE' (Present Tense) Eternal Life

      John 3:16 God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life
      (Believers in the Son """HAVE-PRESENT TENSE""" everlasting life)

      Believers Have Eternal Life
      John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son "hath" everlasting life & he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him
      (WHOEVER BELIEVES ON JESUS """HAS-PRESENT TENSE""" ETERNAL LIFE. "BELIEVE" on the "SON" & you """HAVE""" Eternal Life!)

      Unbelievers Are Condemned
      John 3:18 But he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
      (Unbelievers in the son """ARE (already-right now) & WILL be CONDEMNED""". Don't Believe = """UNBELIEF""" = NON-BELIEVERS will face the wrath of God")

      All of the above paths to salvation are by our choice. A sinless Christ's finished redemptive work, PAID IN FULL & met the laws required wage for sin = DEATH.

      We must CHOOSE to place our faith in his sin atoning death, burial & resurrection. Maranatha
      Comment>

        #4
        Originally posted by GraceOne View Post
        I respectfully disagree:

        We must CHOOSE to place our faith in his sin atoning death, burial & resurrection. Maranatha
        I feel bad that you are posting all this scripture and I am not responding, but this is the Baptist section of the board.

        Start a topic on salvation or Total Depravity or even Limited Atonement in the theology section and I will be happy to discuss it with you.
        (Romans 3:10-12)
        Comment>

          #5
          Originally posted by atpollard View Post
          [FYI ... that was sarcasm.]
          I like your sarcasm. We should have sarcasm Wednesdays.

          Originally posted by atpollard View Post
          I feel bad that you are posting all this scripture and I am not responding, but this is the Baptist section of the board.
          All I know is that it doesn't take much time. Just use a computer concordance to search for the word "all".

          It'll take little effort to post all those Scriptures, but much effort on your part to address the actual context.

          God bless,
          William
          Comment>

            #6
            atpollard, I'm brand new here & still learning my way around. Sorry my posted scriptures offended you. I will use the block tool as to not offended you in the future. All blessings
            Comment>

              #7
              Originally posted by GraceOne View Post
              Sorry my posted scriptures offended you.
              You really believe that posting Scripture offended Atpollard?

              God bless,
              William
              Comment>

                #8
                Originally posted by GraceOne View Post
                1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also """for the sins of the whole world""".

                John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, """which taketh away the sin of the world""".

                John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give """for the life of the world""".

                1 Timothy 2:6 Who """gave himself a ransom for all""", to be testified in due time.
                Hi GO, I think there may be too much in your post to reply to all of it at once, so I'll start by replying to part of it.

                As far as the Scriptures above are concerned, when the Bible talks about the "whole world", it's referring to the Jews AND the Greeks (Gentiles), not the Jews ALONE. IOW, it refers to both Jews AND non-Jews, all tribes, all nations, all tongues, etc., the people of the entire world w/o distinction, not every individual in the world w/o exception!

                Originally posted by GraceOne View Post
                But it doesn't do ANYONE any good """""until they appropriate Christ's sin atoning redemptive sacrifice by faith/belief""""
                Both Arminianism and Calvinism teach this. The difference in the two is a matter of grace. Calvinism teaches that those who chose to believe are only able to do so because of God's grace, where Arminianism teaches that those who choose to believe do so apart from God's grace. You continue:

                Originally posted by GraceOne View Post
                THESE VERSES SHOW ITS ONLY OUR CHOICE THAT LIMITS ATONEMENT

                John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

                Believers Have Eternal Life
                John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son "hath" everlasting life & he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him
                (WHOEVER BELIEVES ON JESUS """HAS""" PRESENT TENSE ETERNAL LIFE)

                Unbelievers Are Condemned
                John 3:18 But he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
                (Unbelievers in the son ARE ALREADY & WILL be condemed)

                EVERYONE HAS A CHOICE:
                "BELIEVE" on the "SON" & you """HAVE""" Eternal Life!

                Or "don't Believe & face the wrath of God"
                All of these verses unquestionably teach that the atonement is limited to those who come to saving faith in Christ. Again, both Calvinism and Arminianism teach this very thing. What these verses don't tell us is 'why' we make the choice to believe in the first place, and/or how such a thing is possible for a race of beings who are described like this outside of Christ: e.g. Romans 3:10-12; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:1-3. You continue:

                Originally posted by GraceOne View Post
                John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
                (NOTE: ""ETERNAL LIFE"" & """THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH""". NOT UNTIL THE NEXT TIME YOU MAKE A MISTAKE)
                The part you've written in above (in bold) is not part of John 10. In fact, it directly contradicts what John 10:28 just finished teaching us about the perseverance of the saints. Please explain your reason for adding it.

                Thanks!

                I'll stop here for now.

                Yours and His,
                David

                John 6:37-40 (excerpt)
                All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and .. of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

                Last edited by David Lee; 10-12-2017, 10:24 AM.
                Simul Justus et Peccator ~Martin Luther

                "We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone" ~John Calvin

                "Instead of a river, God often gives us a brook, which may be running today and dried up tomorrow. Why? To teach us not to rest in our blessings, but in the Blesser Himself." ~A. W. Pink

                "The secret is Christ in me, not me in a different set of circumstances" ~Elisabeth Elliot

                "The law is for the self-righteous to humble their pride; the Gospel is for the lost to remove their despair. ~C. H. Spurgeon
                Comment>

                  #9
                  Originally posted by GraceOne View Post
                  atpollard, I'm brand new here & still learning my way around. Sorry my posted scriptures offended you. I will use the block tool as to not offended you in the future. All blessings
                  No one was offended. Don't be so thin skinned.

                  The subject in this thread has to do with Calvinism within Southern Baptist seminaries. If you want to discuss Calvinism as theology, then I can assure you this is the place for you. However this is not the correct section of the forum and that is all Atpollard was saying.
                  Comment>

                    #10
                    Originally posted by GraceOne View Post
                    atpollard, I'm brand new here & still learning my way around. Sorry my posted scriptures offended you. I will use the block tool as to not offended you in the future. All blessings
                    GraceOne
                    First things first: WELCOME!

                    I was not offended by anything you posted.
                    Just for the record, I grew up atheist, heard the Gospel from Catholic Charismatics, was taught to read and study the Bible at the Church of God (which teaches what you believe - Wesleyan Arminianism), and came to an understanding of scripture that I later learned had a theological name ... Calvinism. [technically, I came to accept Limited Atonement only after becoming a Calvinist because I never gave much thought beyond to the question beyond the fact that Jesus had died for MY sins, but Total Depravity, Unconditional Election and Perseverance of the Saints I learned from reading the Bible before I ever heard of 'TULIP'.]

                    'Block' will only prevent you from seeing MY posts. [Just FYI.]

                    As explained by others, I just did not want to start a long discussion of Calvinism in a topic on Baptist Seminaries. I meant what I said: If you start a topic in the Theology section of the board, I will be glad to discuss it there. With luck and the grace of God, we can keep it friendly and productive ... like discussions between Christians should be.
                    Comment>

                      #11
                      This thread was created by posts moved from Some in the SBC say Calvinism is hurting the Denomination - Christforums
                      Comment>

                        #12
                        Thank you William
                        Simul Justus et Peccator ~Martin Luther

                        "We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone" ~John Calvin

                        "Instead of a river, God often gives us a brook, which may be running today and dried up tomorrow. Why? To teach us not to rest in our blessings, but in the Blesser Himself." ~A. W. Pink

                        "The secret is Christ in me, not me in a different set of circumstances" ~Elisabeth Elliot

                        "The law is for the self-righteous to humble their pride; the Gospel is for the lost to remove their despair. ~C. H. Spurgeon
                        Comment>

                          #13
                          Originally posted by atpollard View Post
                          Limited Attonement is one of the least important and most misrepresented aspects of Calvinism.
                          A lot of people do not take into account historical context. The Five Points of Calvinism are responses to the Five Points of Arminianism. Calvinism really had no name but was the orthodox belief of the Reformed church, and before then traced its roots back to Augustine and before then the apostolic doctrines. It really wasn't until Arminianism crept into the church that a well formalized response was made. The Synod of Dort was a council convened to address the discrepancies of Jacob Arminius followers after his death. Limited Atonement is probably the most controversial of all points in the TULIP. A lot of people claim to be 3-4 point Calvinist, there's no such thing. They are inconsistent Arminians.


                          "The sin of Adam did not make the condemnation of all men merely possible; it was the ground of their actual condemnation. So the righteousness of Christ did not make the salvation of men merely possible, it secured the actual salvation of those for whom He wrought.” ~ Charles Hodge

                          Here is a concise exegetical defense of "particular redemption" in the book of John. Please follow the train of thought to the end. Jesus said, "All that the Father gives me will come to me" (John 6:37) - From this text we understand that all that the Father gives to the Son will believe in him. It does not read "some" of those given by the Father will believe but reads "all" of those the Father has given the Son will believe. Note that it also teaches that the giving to the Son precedes their believing in Him. Lets make some other connections here .... Please notice how this text relates directly to a passage by the same author in John 17, the High Priestly prayer. Jesus uses the same language of "those the Father has given me" when he says "I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours" (John 17:9) So he makes a clear distinction of those He prays for and those He does not before going to the cross for them .... and of these same people in verse 19 Jesus prays "And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth." That is incredible ... He sanctifies Himself so those the Father has given him will also be sanctified ... and in verse 34 he establishes that he further is speaking not only of the immediate disciples but of others who the father has "given him" who hear their word. This exegetically demonstrates the truth of particular redemption, especially since Jesus is praying for all those the Father has given him just prior to going to the cross to sanctify them. - John Hendryx

                          "Irresistible grace presupposes particular redemption. There is no such grace apart from Christ and His work. (Eph 1:3, 1 Pet. 1:3) Therefore, so-called four-point Calvinism is untenable." John Hendryx

                          So-called four-point Calvinism fails the test of biblical Christocentricity and, as such, tends to view TULIP as an abstraction rather than centering on Christ. The TULIP only makes sense when Christ is found at its center. Consider the TULIP as a chiasm with the "L" at the top of the pyramid. All grace has its source in Jesus Christ, from whom all redemptive blessings flow. The other doctrines have no power apart from Christ. John Hendryx

                          "Wherefore all theology, when separated from Christ, is not only vain and confused, but is also mad, deceitful, and spurious; for, though the philosophers sometimes utter excellent sayings, yet they have nothing but what is short-lived, and even mixed up with wicked and erroneous sentiments." - John Calvin

                          The extent of the atonement is defined by the intent of the atonement.” (Matt 1:21; John 17:2,9, 24) ~Steven Lawson

                          And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth. Revelation 5:9-10

                          Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. Hebrews 2:14-16

                          Let us remember, on the other hand, that while life is promised universally to all who believe in Christ, still faith is not common to all. For Christ is made known and held out to the view of all, but the elect alone are they whose eyes God opens, that they may seek him by faith. Here, too, is displayed a wonderful effect of faith; for by it we receive Christ such as he is given to us by the Father -- that is, as having freed us from the condemnation of eternal death, and made us heirs of eternal life, because, by the sacrifice of his death, he has atoned for our sins, that nothing may prevent God from acknowledging us as his sons. Since, therefore, faith embraces Christ, with the efficacy of his death and the fruit of his resurrection, we need not wonder if by it we obtain likewise the life of Christ. ~John Calvin Commentary on John 3:16

                          The Arminians say, 'Christ died for all men.' Ask them what they mean by it. Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of all men? They say, 'No, certainly not.' We ask them the next question: Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of any man in particular? They answer 'No.' They are obliged to admit this, if they are consistent. They say, 'No; Christ has died that any man may be saved if ?' and then follow certain conditions of salvation. Now, who is it that limits the death of Christ? Why, you. You say that Christ did not die so as infallibly to secure the salvation of anybody. We beg your pardon, when you say we limit Christ's death; we say, 'No, my dear sir, it is you that do it.' We say Christ so died that he infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number, who through Christ's death not only may be saved, but are saved, must be saved and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved. You are welcome to your atonement; you may keep it. We will never renounce ours for the sake of it. ~ Spurgeon
                          God bless,
                          William
                          Comment>

                            #14
                            Originally posted by William View Post
                            A lot of people do not take into account historical context. The Five Points of Calvinism are responses to the Five Points of Arminianism. Calvinism really had no name but was the orthodox belief of the Reformed church, and before then traced its roots back to Augustine and before then the apostolic doctrines. It really wasn't until Arminianism crept into the church that a well formalized response was made. The Synod of Dort was a council convened to address the discrepancies of Jacob Arminius followers after his death. Limited Atonement is probably the most controversial of all points in the TULIP. A lot of people claim to be 3-4 point Calvinist, there's no such thing. They are inconsistent Arminians.
                            While difficult, one might gather data on "Total Depravity" and possible 'prove' that every man examined falls short.
                            That God's Election is Unconditional can be sworn to by countless Christians whose transformation bears more than ample witness to the fact that God had no reasonable or logical reason to choose them. Those same witness, and a good many more, can verify that there was no saying 'no' to God's call. His grace was, indeed an Irresistible Grace. (Most Arminians only view the resisting of the call of God as a hypothetical possibility ... No one claiming to be a Christian can honestly claim that they resisted the call.)

                            That just leaves "Limited Atonement" and "Perseverance of the Saints".

                            How would one even attempt to measure or gather data on 'Limited vs Unlimited Atonement'? It always seemed to me to be an area 100% within the realm of God and his thoughts. It seems not merely unknown, but unknowable, with any absolute certainty. Who is qualified to say whose sins Christ chose to take upon Himself and what criteria God uses for establishing the justice of His decisions? I ultimately accepted the Reformed arguments because they made more sense from an internal logic standpoint.

                            Perseverance of the Saints is an area that I see more evidence for the Arminian position in real life. Most of us know, or know of, someone who gave every indication of bearing good fruit and yet ultimately turned away. There are a few verses that we Reformed like to hang our hats on ... "They were never of us", "wolves in sheep clothing", "a dead faith" and "I never knew you". Yet there are far too many examples in the world to not feel some doubt some of the time.

                            Fortunately, the Bible is completely clear on Perseverance. So the question becomes "Do I trust what I see or what God says, more?" The longer I live, the better HIS record is compared to mine.
                            Comment>

                              #15
                              Originally posted by atpollard View Post
                              It always seemed to me to be an area 100% within the realm of God and his thoughts.
                              You are really nailing down the difference between religion which is man centered and theology proper which is God centered.

                              While I'll leave the thoughts of men focused upon themselves and what they have done, I'll glorify the Lord through the foundational pillar of Soli Deo Gloria.
                              • John 5:39-40 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

                              With works righteousness or performance based salvation this should really hit home. They think they have eternal life, the scriptures point to them, about "I, me, and myself" that is, what I have done rather than Christ. What really is the difference between John 5:39-40 and Acts 17:11?

                              Perhaps another topic.

                              God bless,
                              William
                              Comment>
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