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A disciple of Christ

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  • A disciple of Christ

    Being an ‘independent’ disciple of Jesus Christ (also an independent engineer in electronics), I used not expecting being well understood, spiritually speaking, even by believers in Jesus. Let us see if I am imagining things or not ;)

    I guess you already deduced from the word “independent” that I don’t belong to any denomination in the world. For instance, I mean by a “denomination” an organized Christian group based on certain rules and rituals.
    The word “disciple” refers here to its meaning, as translated on the Arabic Gospel, which is “student”. So, in other words, I am a student of Jesus Christ.
    The last statement describes, to me in the least, Jesus Christ as a teacher. In fact, Jesus is, also to me, my Perfect Divine Teacher. But before going on in this direction, I think... I better talk about “faith” first (as I see it, of course) then about the teacher and his student.

    I noticed during my rather long life (more than 6 decades) there are two kinds of faith; a passive faith and active faith.
    An example of a passive faith is like a person having faith in science. As we know, having faith in science doesn’t imply that the believer is a scientist. In this case, he may just trust whatever is said in the name of science by one or more scientists.
    An example of an active faith is when a person has faith in something to happen which is likely very important to him or someone else. This sort of faith exists and gives fruits (I had my personal experiences of it) though it is not recognized in science.

    On the other hand, a good teacher gives/shares his knowledge to/with his students so that they can take advantage of in their life. And a real teacher doesn’t expect his students to be his followers or to apply what they learnt from him to please him but to better take care of themselves instead.
    Naturally, a good student loves and trusts his good teacher. A real student has no reason to be submitted (as a follower/slave does) to his good teacher or fear his wrath. In this case (ideal, if you like), a student and his teacher become like a loving father and his beloved son. A real father and his son are joined (unified) by the unconditional love which is beyond all laws/rules, said of God or men.

    Back to being a “disciple of Jesus Christ” and in brief, Jesus sayings ‘only’ (I repeat 'only' and as written on my Gospel) helped me, gradually and since I was a teen, to have the ‘logical’ answers for all my important questions about my being, life and the world (as it is on the ground, not in great speeches). This is why I see Jesus Christ as My Perfect Divine Teacher. I said “My” because what I learnt from Him may not interest other persons. I also said “Perfect” because I don’t have even one ‘important’ question left without a logical answer. I added the word “Divine” because my Creator ‘only’ knows everything about my deep nature.

    Finally, may I ask the moderators of this forum, one by one ;)
    In your opinion, is it wise for me to stay here?
    I am just a new guest here. And a good guest leaves in peace anytime he is asked to ;)


    Your new friend, Kerim

  • #2
    Originally posted by KerimF View Post
    Finally, may I ask the moderators of this forum, one by one ;)
    In your opinion, is it wise for me to stay here?
    I am just a new guest here. And a good guest leaves in peace anytime he is asked to ;)

    Your new friend, Kerim
    Welcome Kerim,

    Moderators on this forum are anonymous, so you will not receive a direct answer. However, if you have any questions or suggestions, you can post in the suggestion or chat with staff sub-forums. It will be more than likely be me that responds to you as a representative for the board. We do this for various reasoning, but it is our policy in order to make the board an enjoyable place for members as well as staff. As for whether it is wise for you stay or leave here, I suppose if you read the rules and follow them, then it will be a fruitful experience for you and those that engage with you here on the board.

    God bless,
    William
    Comment>

    • #3
      Originally posted by KerimF View Post
      A real student has no reason to be submitted (as a follower/slave does) to his good teacher or fear his wrath.
      Welcome to the forum. A student shouldn't have fear of being held in detention, or even expelled? A son shouldn't have fear of being grounded, or even disinherited? What do you think of Paul calling himself a slave (or bondservant) of Christ? The Bible teaches over and over that followers of God should have fear of God. Jesus said fear the one that can throw you into Hell. Paul says work out your salvation with fear and trembling. When I ask people who say it's wrong to fear God, they (as do all people with bad doctrine) tend to ignore the verses I ask them about, and rather they present something like "there is no fear in love" (another tactic of people with bad doctrine, take a verse that doesn't directly apply, and directly apply it). When your love is perfect, then you should have no fear of God, but until then...

      IMO, those who have no fear of God don't believe in the God of the Bible. Now, true, I don't go around fearing I'll be thrown into Hell. But, I do fear displeasing God through sinful actions, or not being diligent in understanding God's word (and not imposing my own views onto scripture).

      Comment>

      • #4
        Originally posted by Cornelius View Post

        Welcome to the forum. A student shouldn't have fear of being held in detention, or even expelled? A son shouldn't have fear of being grounded, or even disinherited? What do you think of Paul calling himself a slave (or bondservant) of Christ? The Bible teaches over and over that followers of God should have fear of God. Jesus said fear the one that can throw you into Hell. Paul says work out your salvation with fear and trembling. When I ask people who say it's wrong to fear God, they (as do all people with bad doctrine) tend to ignore the verses I ask them about, and rather they present something like "there is no fear in love" (another tactic of people with bad doctrine, take a verse that doesn't directly apply, and directly apply it). When your love is perfect, then you should have no fear of God, but until then...

        IMO, those who have no fear of God don't believe in the God of the Bible. Now, true, I don't go around fearing I'll be thrown into Hell. But, I do fear displeasing God through sinful actions, or not being diligent in understanding God's word (and not imposing my own views onto scripture).
        I think a lot of people fear the POTUS more than they do God. They worry whether the POTUS will like their hair or personality etc etc before meeting him. Personally, one of my fears is the open ocean. Standing before it on the coast watching the waves crash onto the rocks, besides its beauty I respect its sheer power. That sense of awe makes me fearfully stand before it. I can only imagine standing before our Creator God, having the floor beneath my feet fan open, and seeing all the starry firmament below. Whether we are talking about Hell or Heaven, the raw power and majesty of our Creator makes me tremble.

        God bless,
        William
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        • #5
          Welcome KerimF
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          • #6
            First, thank you, Cornelius, for your sincerity which is the greatest priceless gift that a person can give to another. Is there a greater one I may have missed? ;)

            Originally posted by Cornelius View Post
            A student shouldn't have fear of being held in detention, or even expelled? A son shouldn't have fear of being grounded, or even disinherited?
            You are right, Cornelius. I already lived this kind of fear when I was at school then at the university.
            But I am not sure about the latter case since my father passed away (died) when I was 9 years old. Before this, I don't recall I had a reason to fear him; it seems he used taking care of me as he sees himself in me.

            Originally posted by Cornelius View Post
            What do you think of Paul calling himself a slave (or bondservant) of Christ? Paul says work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
            You are right again, I heard of this. It happens that my family is Roman Catholic.


            Originally posted by Cornelius View Post
            The Bible teaches over and over that followers of God should have fear of God. Jesus said fear the one that can throw you into Hell.
            Yes, God's Word that was addressed to our Jewish ancestors taught the fear of God among many other things.

            And it is good that you recall here the 'unique' saying of Jesus in which He mentions "fear".

            For instance, it also happened that God brought me into life in Aleppo city (Syria) where most people talk Arabic.
            So naturally, the first version of the Gospel, I had, is written in Arabic (It is printed in year 1964, a Catholic version).

            The way {Matthew 10:28} is translated to Arabic is something like:

            "And fear not those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

            And, as you said, it is translated to English as:
            "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

            In your opinion, why Jesus didn't say (or wasn't able to say) clearly as He uses doing always:
            "... but rather fear God who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

            Anyway, every person is free to fear anyone/anything. And I am sure that every 'sane mature' person also knows what is (or could be) right/good for him much better than I do (about him).

            On the other hand, please note that St. Paul is just a man, like you and me. But you are also free to equate the importance and perfection of the sayings of Jesus who took a flesh as ours (the Living Word of God) to give us the final update versions of all truths (the set of Truth)... to any other's teachings. On my side, I didn't need more than Jesus sayings to build 'my' relative perfect set of knowledge I was looking for. Naturally, I walk now in life with no fear (I mean the fear generated by doubt) of any sort as a person walk in daylight while he knows everything about his surroundings. In other words, as Jesus says, He gave me the Light of knowledge and saved me, therefore, from the weakness that every human being is born with "ignorance" (most people prefer calling it "the original sin").

            Originally posted by Cornelius View Post
            When your love is perfect, then you should have no fear of God, but until then...
            You are right too... Now you know why I have no reason to fear God ;)

            But I am afraid that we may not see the image of God (as revealed by Jesus Christ) the same way.
            For example, the image of God, as revealed to the ancient Jews (before Jesus) and the one presented by Mohammad Al-Kuraishi in order to found his social/economical/military/political system (imitating the ancient Pharaohs and Jewish kings), asks believers to live in continuous fear of God; as faithful followers/slaves do towards their great powerful masters.


            Originally posted by Cornelius View Post
            IMO, those who have no fear of God don't believe in the God of the Bible. Now, true, I don't go around fearing I'll be thrown into Hell. But, I do fear displeasing God through sinful actions, or not being diligent in understanding God's word (and not imposing my own views onto scripture).
            Wow again... you are right.
            Yes, to me in the least, the Bible is Jesus sayings only... because it happens that Jesus only was able to give me all logical answers I was looking for... mainly about how (the way) to feed my soul for eternity.
            But, I repeat, every person is created to be free and is given a human brain (as mine ;) ) by which he can filter/adopt what is good for the nature he is created of... and reject whatever is not suitable for his being.
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            • #7
              Originally posted by KerimF View Post
              And a real teacher doesn’t expect his students to be his followers or to apply what they learnt from him to please him but to better take care of themselves instead.
              That is true of any human teacher but Jesus was God as well as being a man and because he is God we owe him our obedience and we need to please him because that the the purpose for which we were created. He is indeed the greatest teacher there is but he is also our redeemer. The purpose of his death and resurrection was to atone for our sins.

              Originally posted by KerimF View Post
              Finally, may I ask the moderators of this forum, one by one ;)
              In your opinion, is it wise for me to stay here?
              I am not a moderator but I believe you need to stay on this forum to learn more about Jesus.
              Clyde Herrin's Blog
              Comment>

              • #8
                Originally posted by theophilus View Post
                And a real teacher doesn’t expect his students to be his followers or to apply what they learnt from him to please him but to better take care of themselves instead.
                That is true of any human teacher
                I wish you are right but, in realty, all powerful/rich religious teachers, about any belief and anywhere in the world, 'do' expect having followers.
                So, please open my eyes if you know even one of them who doesn't need followers/believers around him.
                In fact, it is always my pleasure learning from serious sane mature persons about things/situations that they personally lived and I may have missed during my rather long journey in life.

                Originally posted by theophilus View Post
                ... but Jesus was God as well as being a man and because he is God we owe him our obedience and we need to please him because that the purpose for which we were created.
                Yes, Jesus is God (as I mentioned earlier for being Divine).
                To my knowledge, so you can correct me if I am wrong, Jesus doesn't say: "Please Me", "Please your Father in Heaven" or "Please the Holy Spirit".
                In other words, please help me find even 'one rule' that Jesus imposed 'clearly' on men.

                On the other hand, what you say here is totally right while God was addressing our ancestors (kids of humanity) during many centuries before Jesus time.
                I like adding that, God, as presented by Mohammad to get followers, also asks clearly to be obeyed, pleased and even worshiped by following various rituals as Pagans and Jews do, though each in their own way.

                Originally posted by theophilus View Post
                The purpose of his death and resurrection was to atone for our sins.
                I wish I hear from you what was the purpose of his life then?
                And every time I hear this view of salvation, I have the impression that the teller didn't need learning from Jesus Christ how to live without sinning and, better, how to live the unconditional Divine Love towards all others in order to feed his soul and deserve, therefore, being among the children of the Father in Heaven {Matthew 5:45}.
                So I also wish "salvation" is like you say (and millions with you ;) ) because the gate to eternity would be real wide. In this case, one needs just to have a passive faith in Jesus and his soul is saved for eternity.
                Didn't you ask yourself why Jesus says: "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it".


                Originally posted by theophilus View Post
                I am not a moderator but I believe you need to stay on this forum to learn more about Jesus.
                In fact, I look to learn here about how Jesus is seen by people from all around the world.
                And I don't use arguing because, being an ordinary man, I didn't meet yet even one sane mature person from any region in the world who has a doubt for not being on his right path ;)

                Comment>

                • #9
                  Originally posted by KerimF View Post
                  please help me find even 'one rule' that Jesus imposed 'clearly' on men.
                  Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?"

                  (Matthew 16:24-26 ESV)
                  Originally posted by KerimF View Post
                  Didn't you ask yourself why Jesus says: "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it".
                  I don't recall ever asking myself that question but I think the reason few find the way is that few really look for it.
                  Clyde Herrin's Blog
                  Comment>

                  • #10
                    Originally posted by KerimF View Post
                    So, please open my eyes if you know even one of them who doesn't need followers/believers around him.
                    Please begin a thread elsewhere in the forum KerimF, the welcome mat is a place for introductions only. Lemme respond to your request though first, and please respond if you wish to carry on in a thread of your creation.

                    Jesus' disciples should have the same attitude towards followers (disciples) as John the Baptist. They ought to exalt Christ and not themselves. John the baptist made himself a signpost, pointing to Jesus and not himself:

                    John 1:27:

                    "even he who comes after me, the strap of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie.”

                    John 3:22-30

                    22 After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he remained there with them and was baptizing. 23 John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because water was plentiful there, and people were coming and being baptized 24 (for John had not yet been put in prison).

                    25 Now a discussion arose between some of John's disciples and a Jew over purification. 26 And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, he who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you bore witness—look, he is baptizing, and all are going to him.” 27 John answered, “A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven. 28 You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ, but I have been sent before him.’ 29 The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease.”

                    God bless,
                    William
                    Comment>

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by William View Post

                      Please begin a thread elsewhere in the forum KerimF, the welcome mat is a place for introductions only.
                      God bless,
                      William
                      You are totally right William.

                      I take the opportunity to know from you, after you get an idea about me (I hope) and in case you like doing me a favour... into which part, I better start, of the world named "ChristForums".


                      And, I am sorry "theophilus" (I hope you read all posts on this thread, including this).
                      You were kind replying me again here but, if you like, we will meet on another thread or in your blog perhaps, to complete what we started here ;)


                      Thank you all.
                      Comment>

                      • #12
                        Looking forward to getting to know you better KerimF, see you around the forum!

                        God bless,
                        William
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