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  • #2
    LOL...Just remember that Henry Ford decided to pay his workers $5 per day - double the going rate at the time - and this changed the fortunes of a whole industry, and a whole country.


    PermaFrost
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    • #3
      Meanwhile, in the news today, Ford is opening another plant in Mexico to increase its output. Only 1/5th of the automobiles produced by Ford will be manufactured in the United States.
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      • #4
        Originally posted by William View Post
        Meanwhile, in the news today, Ford is opening another plant in Mexico to increase its output. Only 1/5th of the automobiles produced by Ford will be manufactured in the United States.
        Yeah...Henry must be turning in his grave. Spinning, probably. But the dismantling of the U.S. manufacturing industry (not just cars) is for another thread.

        My point was that higher wages are a boon for the economy in general. For a long time now, wage gains have been growing slower than inflation. In other words, the poor are getting poorer, the rich richer. America seems to be headed towards another Guilded Age where the rich are fabulously wealthy and their employees must labor at two jobs to make ends meet.


        PermaFrost
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        • #5
          Originally posted by PermaFrost View Post

          Yeah...Henry must be turning in his grave. Spinning, probably. But the dismantling of the U.S. manufacturing industry (not just cars) is for another thread.

          My point was that higher wages are a boon for the economy in general. For a long time now, wage gains have been growing slower than inflation. In other words, the poor are getting poorer, the rich richer. America seems to be headed towards another Guilded Age where the rich are fabulously wealthy and their employees must labor at two jobs to make ends meet.


          PermaFrost
          If you think that's bad, wait until they give out College diplomas for free. Imagine the competition for any position. It will lower the wages because people will be easily replaced. Meanwhile Obama drives us into more debt. I won't pass him off as being so smart to force America to tax its citizens to the point of Socialism, but it has crossed my mind.
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          • #6
            Walmart has buckled under political pressure to raise their starting pay. At the same time, Walmart announced it's closing 154 stores. Walmart has started closing some Supercenters at night. Walmart is reducing the number of managers. Walmart is ending door greeters (a great job for someone unable to learn job skills). And, I'll bet they're reducing the number of cashiers. All these have to do with reducing labor costs, and I have no doubt that it's part of the cost of Walmart raising pay.

            Low-wage jobs are a great opportunity for difficult-to-employ people to find work. Raising minimum wage prevents these people from finding jobs. You're not suppose to stay in these jobs. You're suppose to move up. Go to truck driving school. Work your way up to management. Whatever. Low-paying jobs should be seen as a foot in the door, not as a way of life.

            I'd prefer a low-paying job over being unemployed. Liberals prefer us to be unemployed and without a choice in the matter.

            The best way to boost wages among the working class is for the government to stop subsidizing illegal immigration.
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            • #7
              One of the cornerstones of Donald Trump’s campaign has been the fact that millions of jobs have been lost to overseas industries because it is often too expensive to do business in America anymore.

              Many liberals have criticized Trump for these statements, but the Wall Street Journal recently reported that Ford’s latest production move showed that Trump was exactly right.

              Ford planned to build a new assembly plant in Mexico in order to produce 500,000 more vehicles in Mexico than it currently does. Last year Ford’s Mexican output was 433,000 vehicles, which translates to about 14 percent of its total production in North America.... . This shift is only expected to grow because the United Auto Workers labor union recently struck a deal to increase wages for U.S. factory workers, making domestic production just that much more cost-prohibitive. - Conservative Tribune
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              • #8
                Originally posted by William View Post
                One of the cornerstones of Donald Trump’s campaign has been the fact that millions of jobs have been lost to overseas industries because it is often too expensive to do business in America anymore.

                Many liberals have criticized Trump for these statements, but the Wall Street Journal recently reported that Ford’s latest production move showed that Trump was exactly right.

                I think the problem goes deeper than «...it is often too expensive to do business in America anymore.» Average Americans are also to blame for insisting on low-low-low prices for everything. This mindset incites retailers to import all manner of items from cheap-labor countries. Example: I went to buy lightbulbs a few weeks ago. I had a choice between a box of 6 Made-in-China lightbulbs for $2.99 or a pack of 2 Made-in-USA bulbs for the same price. I'm a wierdo, so I bought the pack of 2 but I'm quite sure most people never bother to check the country of origin. I always do. I always favor products made locally or products imported from a nation where workers are paid a fair wage. So, if you want a Ford, buy one made locally. Heck, they even make Toyotas and BMWs and Mercedes in the USA; there is no reason to buy a Mexican Ford.

                The above goes for manufactured goods as well as foodstuffs. Decide not to send your money overseas. Now go and put your money where your mouth is!


                PermaFrost
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by PermaFrost View Post
                  I think the problem goes deeper than «...it is often too expensive to do business in America anymore.» Average Americans are also to blame for insisting on low-low-low prices for everything. This mindset incites retailers to import all manner of items from cheap-labor countries. Example: I went to buy lightbulbs a few weeks ago. I had a choice between a box of 6 Made-in-China lightbulbs for $2.99 or a pack of 2 Made-in-USA bulbs for the same price. I'm a wierdo, so I bought the pack of 2 but I'm quite sure most people never bother to check the country of origin.
                  Why didn't you buy LED bulbs? Everything else is obsolete.

                  Have you considered what good you could have done with the money you would have saved by buying the Chinese bulbs? Have you considered that if the American bulb company can't make cheaper bulbs that they should be doing something else instead? The invisible hand of the Free Market works best when people are "greedy". Protectionism is a prime cause of poverty in 3rd-world countries. They think if they pay triple as much for local bulbs, they'll get rich, but they just get 3rd-world.

                  Do you think it would be good economics for us to pay people to dig holes and then fill those holes in, then repeat? That's the essence of what you're doing.




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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Cornelius View Post
                    Do you think it would be good economics for us to pay people to dig holes and then fill those holes in, then repeat? That's the essence of what you're doing.

                    What I'm doing is choosing properly-made products over low-cost ones. Other examples: I was in Bangor, Maine, last summer and decided that I wanted a U.S. flag. I went to Walmart and the U.S. flags they had were made in China. CHINA! Walmart can't find American flags made in the USA? I finally found American-made American flags at another store (Campers World) for $29.99. They also had the cheap - and crappy - Chinese-American flags for a lot less money. Another example: Power Tools. I needed a belt sander a few years ago. All the traditional brands are now made in slave-labor countries (China/Indonesia/Malaysia). So I ended up buying a Makita sander made in Japan, where workers are paid a fair wage. Headsets: I needed some headsets for flying. I had a choice of buying David Clarks (Made in USA) for $400 apiece or Chinese stuff for $99. What do you think I bought?

                    It is not about making cheaper products but better ones. Like it or not, products made in first-world countries are usually better (and much longer-lasting) than products made by subsistence-wage countries. This goes for clothing, to tools, to cars and most anything else...including dog food. Quality has never been cheap but in the end, in the long run, quality is less expensive than buying junk.


                    PermaFrost
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by PermaFrost View Post
                      slave-labor countries
                      Slave-labor countries? You think China should have a higher minimum wage (which will increase unemployment, I'd prefer a low wage to no wage)?

                      It's valid to spend more to get better quality, when quality matters. Most things from China are low quality, and so sometimes you'll want to pass on China. But, often low quality is good enough. I'm not too worried about lose thread or the thread count of my t-shirt. Any Chinese-made Apple iPhone will last as long as any American made phone. Sometimes it's the American products that are inferior in quality, like for many years American cars vs. Japanese cars.

                      I paid a little more for LED bulbs ($2.50/bulb), made in China for all I know. They'll last twice as long as the bulbs you bought (CFL?). They produce the same light for half the electricity. They won't shatter. They won't release mercury. They turn on instantly to full brightness, even outside in winter. They look nicer in the fixture (round bulbs, not spiral). Their life isn't shortened every time they're turned off and on.

                      But, this isn't really about quality. It's about buying American under the misguided notion that it's good for us. The reason the American bulbs cost more, if it's higher labor costs, is because it's wasteful for highly educated Americans to be on a bulb assembly line doing what a monkey or a robot could do. The benefit of an American consumer saving 66% for a Chinese bulb benefits America more than paying an American to waste his potential doing a job a monkey or a robot -- or a black box called China -- could do. If you made a black box in your garage that popped out cheap light bulbs, would you think that would hurt America?
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Cornelius View Post



                        Slave-labor countries? You think China should have a higher minimum wage (which will increase unemployment, I'd prefer a low wage to no wage)?
                        Frankly, I don't care about China one way or another. That market is big enough to supply itself without flooding the world with knock-offs and stolen intellectual property.

                        Originally posted by Cornelius View Post
                        It's valid to spend more to get better quality, when quality matters. Most things from China are low quality, and so sometimes you'll want to pass on China. But, often low quality is good enough. I'm not too worried about lose thread or the thread count of my t-shirt. Any Chinese-made Apple iPhone will last as long as any American made phone.
                        The main problem - as I see it - isn't that «sometimes low quality is good enough» but that low-low-low prices entice consumers into buying stuff that is useless and ends up as junk. Junk that clutters our kitchens, drawers, closets, toolboxes, garages and so on. I used to own a low-rent apartment building and it always amazed me that my low-income tenants had so much stuff. The really poor - those who live in poor countries and are poor as well - don't have stuff cluttering their homes up. The problem many of us have is unbridled consumerism.

                        About your t-shirt: I buy only expensive t-shirts and they last and last and last. They even get better looking with repeated washings. You always win with quality. Always.


                        Originally posted by Cornelius View Post
                        Sometimes it's the American products that are inferior in quality, like for many years American cars vs. Japanese cars.
                        Yes, you're right about Japanese vs American cars. However, Japan was never a labor-camp state the way Maoist China was, so your implied analogy isn't appropriate. In the 1960s and early 70s, when «Made in Japan» meant crap, Japan was more like South Korea is today. Japan was never a Communist state either.

                        I don't have a problem with you buying a Made in Japan or a Made in Korea automobile. Both countries are Western allies and both make quality products and pay their workers a fair wage. Now, I've been to Cuba and there are many Chinese cars there: Geely seems to be the most popular brand. Geely = Rolling Junk. If you bought a Geely and stuck an easily faded, Chinese-made American flag on it, I'd have a good laugh...!

                        Originally posted by Cornelius View Post
                        But, this isn't really about quality. It's about buying American under the misguided notion that it's good for us. The reason the American bulbs cost more, if it's higher labor costs, is because it's wasteful for highly educated Americans to be on a bulb...
                        Nah...this isn't really about light bulbs. (Anyway, a lightbulb factory is highly automated and doesn't need a bunch of laborers.) This is more about the dismantling of the manufacturing sector throughout Western nations to the benefit of those who are already extremely rich. Your Mexican Ford will cost the same amount at the dealership as the American-made Ford it replaced. Those who benefit the most are Ford's shareholders...and the Mexicans. Who are those who suffer? You can answer that one...

                        BTW, when Volkswagen and Nissan decided to shift production to Mexico, they had to deal with niggling quality-control problems.


                        PermaFrost

                        Comment>

                        • #13
                          Originally posted by PermaFrost View Post
                          Nah...this isn't really about light bulbs. (Anyway, a lightbulb factory is highly automated and doesn't need a bunch of laborers.) This is more about the dismantling of the manufacturing sector throughout Western nations to the benefit of those who are already extremely rich. Your Mexican Ford will cost the same amount at the dealership as the American-made Ford it replaced. Those who benefit the most are Ford's shareholders...and the Mexicans. Who are those who suffer? You can answer that one...
                          Americans getting light bulbs for a third of the price causes Americans to suffer?

                          If labor doesn't account for the triple price of the bulb, then it must be the the shareholders profiting. Is it your intent to help the rich shareholders get richer at your expense by you paying three times the price that you need to?

                          A lot of unnecessary harm has been done to American manufacturing, but harming yourself by overpaying for products isn't the solution.

                          Objecting to imports because if cheap foreign labor is like objecting to technology that makes things cheaper. It's like thinking that your invention to make cheap light bulbs in your garage is bad for America. On the contrary, if you figure out how to make cheaper light bulbs, Americans will be able to buy all the lights they need and have more money left over for other things.






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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Cornelius View Post



                            Americans getting light bulbs for a third of the price causes Americans to suffer?
                            You jump too quickly to conclusions. And you are still stuck on light bulbs! LOL Here is what I'm saying:


                            1. Your Mexican Ford is sold to you for the same price as the American Ford it replaces.

                            2. The savings from building the car in Mexico doesn't benefit the average consumer. It doesn't directly benefit the American economy. It doesn't benefit the workers at the U.S. plant who lost their jobs.

                            3. The savings from building the car in Mexico benefit: 1, the shareholders (who may be individuals, pension funds etc.) 2. Mexico benefits by an influx of foreign currency thanks to the sale of these cars to various countries. Mexico benefits because its people find jobs in manufacturing and service industries related to auto manufacturing as well as transport services to get the products to market. Mexico benefits by enhanced manufacturing infrastructure. There is a slight benefit to the American economy because of increased shareholder dividends.

                            I trust you get the point. A manufacturing plant moving to Mexico means a significant loss to the American economy through lost jobs, lost taxes paid, lost secondary manufacturing and service jobs disappearing and lost manufacturing infrastructure. There is a substantial gain to the Mexican economy: what the U.S. lost is Mexico's gain. The shareholders benefit as well, some of these are institutional, some are individuals.


                            The above works for lightbulbs as well. American light bulbs will always cost more than Chinese light bulbs because they are better made (go and look at them the next time you're at Home Depot.) Ditto for American apparel or American-made American flags. The reason for this is simple...we can't compete on quantity but we can compete on quality. Also, China doesn't have to clean up after itself, doesn't pay its workers a decent wage, can overwork its labor force, steals intellectual property, fraudulently copies products and sells the fakes as real... Why you are defending a Communist state-controlled light bulb manufacturer is beyond me! LOL Since you love Chinese lightbulbs so much, consider this: manufacturing anything in China is filthy and dangerous. The Chinese aren't into environmental awareness, so when you bought your chinese bulbs, you contributed more to dirtying up this place than I did.

                            I bet you fly a Chinese-made gringo flag on front porch...


                            PermaFrost

                            EDIT: Hey, Cornelius, are you one of the enlightened few who bought a Snyder automobile? Despite the name, Snyders were made in China and I know you like Chinese «quality» LOL
                            Last edited by PermaFrost; 02-13-2016, 06:26 PM.
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