There is something healthy about returning to one’s roots. When it comes to evangelical Christianity, its roots are found in the soil of the sixteenth-century Protestant Reformation.

Faith alone?

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    Hi Guppy, perhaps a more thorough discussion of v21 is in order? (specifically about eternal life and how "doing the will of the Father" is related to it).

    Let me know if you'd like to do that.

    Yours and His,
    David
    Simul Justus et Peccator ~Martin Luther

    "We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone" ~John Calvin

    "Instead of a river, God often gives us a brook, which may be running today and dried up tomorrow. Why? To teach us not to rest in our blessings, but in the Blesser Himself." ~A. W. Pink

    "The secret is Christ in me, not me in a different set of circumstances" ~Elisabeth Elliot

    "The law is for the self-righteous to humble their pride; the Gospel is for the lost to remove their despair. ~C. H. Spurgeon
    Comment>

      Originally posted by Innerfire89 View Post
      We are arguing on the same things again, you ignored Romans 8 completely, and you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
      No, I am disagreeing with you because that is what I believe

      .
      Originally posted by David Lee View Post
      Hi Guppy, at the outset here I want to say this, although you do not interpret this passage (Matthew 7:21-23) like any theologian, commentator or pastor I've ever heard/read within Christendom, I believe this little passage is so important and so difficult that you need to take all the time you feel you need (to grasp what it's really saying). It remains, foat leastr me, perhaps the most troubling/frightening passage in all of Scripture (which is another reason that I believe you should take plenty of time coming to terms with it).

      Let me start with
      . It remains, foat leastr me, perhaps the most troubling/frightening passage in all of Scripture (which is another reason that I believe you should take plenty of time coming to terms with it
      Dave, I am a little surprised at this statement. Why would it be troubling, if your interpretation of the scripture is the true one. If these were indeed workers of inequity. False prophets, self works.

      It is troubling to me because I believe they are Christians and we disagree here, so I don't understand why its troubling to you.


      although you do not interpret this passage (Matthew 7:21-23) like any theologian, commentator or pastor I've ever heard/read within Christendom
      R.C. Sproul is quoted on this forum, I would imagine there is some respect for him here. He believes as I do.
      and Like you, he said this is the scariest text in the bible, but I believe that is because he believes as I do.

      R.C. sproul said that the term Lord Lord has the meaning of a deep personal relationship. A profound relationship.

      He said it happens between 12 and 15 times in the bible

      God calls out Abraham Abraham to Jacob. Jacob Jacob. God calls out to Moses, Moses Moses. God calls out Samuel Samuel

      Jesus cry's out Martha Martha and Jerusalem Jerusalem and Saul Saul and My God My God.

      RC Sproul Takes verse 22 a little further, didn't we Prophesies in your name. Didn't we cast out demons in your name. Didn't we do many miracles. Didn't we tithe in your name. Didn't we teach Sunday school in your name.

      RC concluding statement was, its not whether you know God that matters, but does God know you and if you are not producing the fruits of the spirit repent


      Originally posted by David Lee View Post
      they claimed they knew Him and that He should grant them eternal life based upon their supposed great and mighty deeds, but the Lord makes it clear to us that their claim was nothing more than that. They had no relationship with Him, and He had no relationship with them.
      But they believed they did. Lord Lord. A close profound relationship. That is why it is a scary verse

      RC sproul has a sermon on Matthew 7:21-23 I believe at Ligonier ministries
      Comment>

        Originally posted by Guppy View Post



        But they believed they did. Lord Lord. A close profound relationship. That is why it is a scary verse

        RC sproul has a sermon on Matthew 7:21-23 I believe at Ligonier ministries
        Comment>

          Please find your reference to your Post #167 as I indicate in my #168. Do you have a direct URL? Thanks.

          EDIT: Never mind.............I found it. Thanks.
          Comment>

            Originally posted by Guppy View Post

            No, I am disagreeing with you because that is what I believe

            .


            Let me start with
            Dave, I am a little surprised at this statement. Why would it be troubling, if your interpretation of the scripture is the true one. If these were indeed workers of inequity. False prophets, self works.

            It is troubling to me because I believe they are Christians and we disagree here, so I don't understand why its troubling to you.




            R.C. Sproul is quoted on this forum, I would imagine there is some respect for him here. He believes as I do.
            and Like you, he said this is the scariest text in the bible, but I believe that is because he believes as I do.

            R.C. sproul said that the term Lord Lord has the meaning of a deep personal relationship. A profound relationship.

            He said it happens between 12 and 15 times in the bible

            God calls out Abraham Abraham to Jacob. Jacob Jacob. God calls out to Moses, Moses Moses. God calls out Samuel Samuel

            Jesus cry's out Martha Martha and Jerusalem Jerusalem and Saul Saul and My God My God.

            RC Sproul Takes verse 22 a little further, didn't we Prophesies in your name. Didn't we cast out demons in your name. Didn't we do many miracles. Didn't we tithe in your name. Didn't we teach Sunday school in your name.

            RC concluding statement was, its not whether you know God that matters, but does God know you and if you are not producing the fruits of the spirit repent




            But they believed they did. Lord Lord. A close profound relationship. That is why it is a scary verse

            RC sproul has a sermon on Matthew 7:21-23 I believe at Ligonier ministries
            We are arguing in circles.

            R. C. Sproul is a 5 point Calvinist, he believes in the doctrine of presrvance of the saints or once saved always saved.

            Comment>

              Matthew 7:15-23
              15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will [fn]know them by their fruits.

              21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’


              Commentary of David Brown

              15. Beware--But beware.
              of false prophets--that is, of teachers coming as authorized expounders of the mind of God and guides to heaven. (See Act 20:29, 30 2Pe 2:1, 2 ).
              which come to you in sheep's clothing--with a bland, gentle, plausible exterior; persuading you that the gate is not strait nor the way narrow, and that to teach so is illiberal and bigoted--precisely what the old prophets did ( Eze 13:1-10, 22 ).
              but inwardly they are ravening wolves--bent on devouring the flock for their own ends ( 2Cr 11:2, 3, 13-15 ).

              16. Ye shall know them by their fruits--not their doctrines--as many of the elder interpreters and some later ones explain it--for that corresponds to the tree itself; but the practical effect of their teaching, which is the proper fruit of the tree.
              Do men gather grapes of thorns--any kind of prickly plant.
              or figs of thistles?--a three-pronged variety. The general sense is obvious--Every tree bears its own fruit.

              17. Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit: but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

              18. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit--Obvious as is the truth here expressed in different forms--that the heart determines and is the only proper interpreter of the actions of our life--no one who knows how the Church of Rome makes a merit of actions, quite apart from the motives that prompt them, and how the same tendency manifests itself from time to time even among Protestant Christians, can think it too obvious to be insisted on by the teachers of divine truth. Here follows a wholesome digression.

              19. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire--(See on JF & B for Mt 3:10).

              20. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them--that is, But the point I now press is not so much the end of such, as the means of detecting them; and this, as already said, is their fruits. The hypocrisy of teachers now leads to a solemn warning against religious hypocrisy in general.

              21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord--the reduplication of the title "Lord" denoting zeal in according it to Christ (see Mar 14:45 ). Yet our Lord claims and expects this of all His disciples, as when He washed their feet: "Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am" ( Jhn 13:13 ).
              shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven--that will which it had been the great object of this discourse to set forth. Yet our Lord says warily, not "the will of your Father," but "of My Father"; thus claiming a relationship to His Father with which His disciples might not intermeddle, and which He never lets down. And He so speaks here to give authority to His asseverations. But now He rises higher still--not formally announcing Himself as the Judge, but intimating what men will say to Him, and He to them, when He sits as their final judge.

              22. Many will say to me in that day--What day? It is emphatically unnamed. But it is the day to which He had just referred, when men shall "enter" or not enter "into the kingdom of heaven." (See a similar way of speaking of "that day" in 2Ti 1:12 4:8 ).
              Lord, Lord--The reiteration denotes surprise. "What, Lord? How is this? Are we to be disowned?"
              have we not prophesied--or, "publicly taught." As one of the special gifts of the Spirit in the early Church, it has the sense of "inspired and authoritative teaching," and is ranked next to the apostleship. (See 1Cr 12:28 Eph 4:11 ). In this sense it is used here, as appears from what follows.
              in thy name--or, "to thy name," and so in the two following clauses--"having reference to Thy name as the sole power in which we did it."
              and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works--or, miracles. These are selected as three examples of the highest services rendered to the Christian cause, and through the power of Christ's own name, invoked for that purpose; He Himself, too, responding to the call. And the threefold repetition of the question, each time in the same form, expresses in the liveliest manner the astonishment of the speakers at the view now taken of them.

              23. And then will I profess unto them--or, openly proclaim--tearing off the mask.
              I never knew you--What they claimed intimacy with Christ, is just what He repudiates, and with a certain scornful dignity. "Our acquaintance was not broken off--there never was any."
              depart from me--(Compare Mat 25:41 ). The connection here gives these words an awful significance. They claimed intimacy with Christ, and in the corresponding passage, Luk 13:26, are represented as having gone out and in with Him on familiar terms. "So much the worse for you," He replies: "I bore with that long enough; but now--begone!"
              ye that work iniquity--not "that wrought iniquity"; for they are represented as fresh from the scenes and acts of it as they stand before the Judge. (See on the almost identical, but even more vivid and awful, description of the scene in Luk 13:24-27 ). That the apostle alludes to these very words in 2Ti 2:19 there can hardly be any doubt--"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."


              The goal appears not to merely produce fruit, but to produce Good Fruit.
              To prophesy, cast out demons, and perform many miracles all in Jesus' name is not the fruit indicating a new heart ...

              Galatians 5:16-24 NASB
              16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

              Comment>

                Originally posted by William View Post
                But you have my curiosity Guppy. Stand on the fence on what issues? Have you considered some things are not primary but secondary where liberty abounds?
                I didn't mean on any particular issue. I meant in life as a Christian, I feel I have one foot in the kingdom and one foot still here in the flesh. I can be hot for the Lord, then cold, it reminds me of
                Laodicea, neither hot nor cold, he is talking to the church. Warm is not "good enough" We need to be hot, on fire for the Lord. I don't believe we can think that as Christians we can coast through this life.


                That is the picture I see in Matthew 7


                Comment>



                  Originally posted by Innerfire89 View Post
                  We are arguing in circles.

                  R. C. Sproul is a 5 point Calvinist, he believes in the doctrine of presrvance of the saints or once saved always saved.

                  You all were saying that these were not Christians that their acts were acts of self righteousness you even said
                  Originally posted by Innerfire89 View Post
                  They didn't really cast out demons or heal the sick. They were deceaved by the power they were using.
                  Originally posted by Innerfire89 View Post
                  In Matt 7 Christ never knew them, He never worked in them
                  I talked about RC Sproul because he said these people had a close profound relationship with Christ

                  I am sure they did cast out demons and prophesized and did miracles. The thing is a bad tree can produce good fruit for a season or two
                  Comment>

                    Originally posted by Guppy View Post




                    You all were saying that these were not Christians that their acts were acts of self righteousness you even said

                    I talked about RC Sproul because he said these people had a close profound relationship with Christ

                    I am sure they did cast out demons and prophesized and did miracles. The thing is a bad tree can produce good fruit for a season or two
                    If they had a close profound relationship with Christ then would have turned them away, they would have been fruitful. Christ works inside of us, He brings us home, no one can snatch us from his hand. Now if Christ is working in us how can we loose are salvation? Look at the ocean, look at the sky, look at the empty tomb. If Christ can do that there's no doubt that he can lead us to salvation.

                    Scipurte tells us a bad tree can not produce good fruits.


                    R. C. Sproul believes in once saved, always saved, he has stood in front of an aduiance and explained the doctrine. I don't know where your quote came from, but I read nothing in your comment where he said they a profound relationship.
                    Comment>

                      Originally posted by atpollard View Post
                      Lord, Lord--The reiteration denotes surprise. "What, Lord? How is this? Are we to be disowned?"
                      I appreciate all of the posts, but I must dis agree with Dr. Brown here, who I like, but disagree with.
                      I gave many examples of a name being used twice, it is never in a surprised setting

                      Jesus said Martha, Martha, That was not a surprised statement, it was because of a deep personal relationship. God Calls out, right before Abraham was to sacrifice Isaac, Abraham, Abraham. Not surprise, but deep personal relationship. David calls out Absalom, Absalom, it was not surprise but because of a deep love he had for his son. They are not calling out Lord Lord out of shock or surprise, but because they know him and love him.


                      But Jesus say's if you Love me you will keep my commandments
                      Comment>

                        Originally posted by Innerfire89 View Post
                        R. C. Sproul believes in once saved, always saved, he has stood in front of an aduiance and explained the doctrine. I don't know where your quote came from, but I read nothing in your comment where he said they a profound relationship.
                        "Lord, Lord", a Sermon from Dr. R.C. Sproul | Listen to Free Sermons from R.C. Sproul at Ligonier.org
                        Comment>

                          The Christian life is very much like climbing a hill of ice. You cannot slide up. You have to cut every step with an ice axe. Only with incessant labor in cutting and chipping can you make any progress. If you want to know how to backslide, leave off going forward. Cease going upward and you will go downward of necessity. You can never stand still.

                          ~Charles H. Spurgeon

                          Its a great Quote, but does it fit here in faith alone?
                          Comment>

                            Originally posted by Innerfire89 View Post
                            R. C. Sproul believes in once saved, always saved, he has stood in front of an aduiance and explained the doctrine. I don't know where your quote came from, but I read nothing in your comment where he said they a profound relationship.
                            Here are a couple of articles from Ligonier Ministries. You are right, R. C. Sproul is a 5 Point Calvinist. On top of these articles one can search for his book on the topic of Justification by Faith Alone



                            Standing Firm for the Doctrine of Justification by Faith Alone -Christforums
                            Justification by Faith Alone -Christforums

                            Also, Charles Spurgeon. Another 5 Point Calvinist

                            Justification by Faith -Christforums
                            Justification By Faith Alone Through Grace Alone By Christ Alone and Peace With God 1 | SermonAudio.com

                            God bless,
                            William
                            Comment>

                              Word and Deed | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org(0).pdf

                              And here we have R. C.'s commentary on Matthew 7:21-24.

                              I tried to watch your video, but couldn't get it to load, bad reception and I'm out of high speed data.
                              Comment>

                                Originally posted by Innerfire89 View Post
                                I tried to watch your video, but couldn't get it to load, bad reception and I'm out of high speed data.
                                It is auto only
                                Comment>
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