Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Martin Luther: "The Jews and Their Lies"

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Martin Luther: "The Jews and Their Lies"

    I had admired this great man of the Christian faith. In my long-standing walk with the fundamental beliefs in the last ten years out of 35 years of conversion to Christ, I had known the Christian tradition and practice in the best I knew how in what we were taught: Replacement Theology, for instance.

    Being within the tutelage of the fundamental Independent Baptist teachings, I realized that the Jesus I was following and loved became such an interesting study, that I've begun to reason within my heart and spirit. Don't get wrong. I have not become 'heathen' as an IB pastor would brand me, 'rebellious'.

    As I grow older, I searched with Philip Yancy's revealing book, "The Jesus I Never Knew". He helped me name and logically address (no guilt feelings) my longing about knowing more whom I was following, have entrusted my life to, and whom I asked to save me. Who is He—this Jesus? Why am I using the words in my vocabulary, “Be holy for I am holy” so often that I have become redundant and tiring to my younger listeners?

    Thankfully, my journey ventured deeper farther back in history: past the 16th century medieval era. Past the Reformation time of Martin Luther or John Calvin. Even past the Apostolic fathers-- Ignatius and Polycarp. Past Iraneus and Clement, Augustine, Tertullian. I’ve had an encyclopaedia of all of these people. They all had in common with their protege, Martin Luther.

    I simply found home in the farthest back to the Father and King of all Creation: The one true God, Yahweh of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The Hebraic roots and foundation of the Christian faith. Besides, ‘Jesus’ was called by his Jewish mother, Yeshua.

    Martin Luther: “The Jews and their Lies” was my first exposed revelation into my journey of faith. I've traced back into the Hebraic roots. It’s mind-boggling and a shock to me that one of the founding fathers, German Martin Luther of the Christian faith spoke in such a way he authored his book.

    He, Luther, targeted the Jewish family line of the House of King David of the Jewish Messiah, called , Yeshua, in Greek Iesus, and English, Jesus the Messiah, Christ.

    Martin Luther - "The Jews & Their Lies"

    Last edited by PsalmOneCares; 03-13-2017, 08:58 AM.

  • #46
    Originally posted by theophilus View Post

    Of course it doesn't resemble today's Jerusalem. This is a prediction of what will take place during the Millenium.
    That's a key difference between Amillennialism and Premillennialism.

    God bless,
    William

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by William View Post
      I am referring to those that reject the Triune God as unbelievers.
      Originally posted by William View Post
      I see it all the time. People reject the Trinity. Group A , for example, acknowledges the Father, yet rejects the Son, and may or may not the Holy Spirit.
      I know these quotes are from older topics in this thread. But I'll try to justify the validity of your question in its premise:

      'Who are the Jews whom I call "brothers and sisters in the faith through the seed of the promise through Abraham?" Your point is: The Jews who do not accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour are "unbelievers." You are right there-- in the perspective of the Christian theology decreed by the Council of Nicea 325-- where it all started, including the placement of Presbytery, Popes and bishops.

      Christianity developed the the trinitarian conception of the godhead, the divine messiah (the second person) was explained in terms of an incarnation by virgin birth, and Jesus of Nazareth was always present -- through the Holy Spirit-- in the spiritual community which He has founded and of which he had remained the Lord and Saviour.

      Anyway, here are two facts we can draw from all this:
      • For the Jews, the Christian interpretation perverted the obvious sense of the Scripture;
      • For the Christians, the Jews were spiritually blind and unable to perceive the true meaning of the "Old Testament" (II Cor.3:14f.)


      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by PsalmOneCares View Post
        I know these quotes are from older topics in this thread. But I'll try to justify the validity of your question in its premise:

        'Who are the Jews whom I call "brothers and sisters in the faith through the seed of the promise through Abraham?" Your point is: The Jews who do not accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour are "unbelievers." You are right there-- in the perspective of the Christian theology decreed by the Council of Nicea 325-- where it all started...
        Are you suggesting that the doctrine of the trinity was formed at the Council of Nicea?

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Origen View Post
          Are you suggesting that the doctrine of the trinity was formed at the Council of Nicea?
          Didn't the early Church fathers of the early Christian church? I have not suggested anything. I'm just presenting some facts. Early Christian History / Trinitarian Truth

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by PsalmOneCares View Post
            Didn't the early Church fathers of the early Christian church?
            You need to make this question more clear. Didn't they what?

            Originally posted by PsalmOneCares View Post
            I have not suggested anything. I'm just presenting some facts. Early Christian History / Trinitarian Truth
            The facts are that Council of Nicea was convened to address two views over the deity of Christ, not the trinity. One group believe that Christ was a god (a created being) and the other that Christ was the God, the one and only God. "The trinitarian conception of the godhead" was already known and believed long before Nicea.

            Perhaps you could give us some primary sources.

            Here are mine concerning the deity of Christ and the trinity (posts 4, 5, 6, and 7). All quotes from early sources long before the Council of Nicea.

            Is God the Triune God? -Christforums

            Originally posted by PsalmOneCares View Post
            in the perspective of the Christian theology decreed by the Council of Nicea 325-- where it all started, including the placement of Presbytery, Popes and bishops.
            Nope, it did not happen.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by PsalmOneCares View Post

              Didn't the early Church fathers of the early Christian church? I have not suggested anything. I'm just presenting some facts. Early Christian History / Trinitarian Truth
              Lemme ask you this, why did the early church consider the Arian and Gnostic false-doctrines heresy? Why would they have objected to it before the Council of Nicaea? The council was called because there was a disruptive heresy circulating in the early church, obviously, they could discern correct from incorrect doctrine for them to formulate the Creed.

              I must admit, PsalmOneCares, I am wondering to what lengths you'll go to defend unbelievers just because they are Jews?

              There is no sense for me to recite the Nicene Creed, but any Creed by itself is worthless, it must convey the central truths from Scripture. The early churches must have been quite bothered by the heresy circulating. And obviously they went to great length and risk to formalize what the early church believed, many of which that participated were missing limbs, eyes, etc. The purpose of any Creed is to unify a body of professing believers, usually this occurs after a heresy takes root and begins circulating throughout the church.

              For example, Calvinism existed long before Arminianism. Though it was not formulated so meticulously until the false teaching of Arminianism entered into the church and began to spread. The long orthodox teaching of the church was then questioned, a council was convened, and it produced the Synod of Dort's 5 Points of Calvinism which were direct responses to the followers of Jacob Arminius. Just because the finalized formulated doctrine of Calvinism wasn't produced until the 16th century doesn't mean that it did not exists before then, as its very roots come from Apostolic doctrine. It was just never questioned and false teaching never abound in the church up until the time of Synod was called, likewise the Trinity existed and was taught from the very lips of Christ. To make an argument that nobody saw it is baseless. Plenty of people knew exactly what Christ Jesus stated, and is why some tried to kill Him, and others fell down and declared Him their Lord and God. The same argument could be said before Jesus' coming. Not everyone saw or had faith in His coming, but since Genesis 3:15 the OT Saints looked towards the Messiah's coming.

              Jesus in John chapter 8 made it clear, that the unbelieving Jews that declared themselves by only physical descent Abraham' children were children of the devil. They lacked the faith that OT Saints demonstrated, or as Jesus said, Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”

              Lastly, just because I have never come across anyone that has articulated the Trinity as Louis Berkof doesn't mean nobody else understood the Trinity until the 1900s. Matter of fact most people do not understand as much as the Nicene Creed conveys, this is obviously not a work produced from a one-time meeting, but a work produced from the early church's centuries of orthodoxy.

              berkhof’s explanation of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit from the “Summary of Christian Doctrine”.

              1. Statement of the Doctrine. The Bible teaches that, while He exists in three Persons, called Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These are not three persons in the ordinary sense of the word; they are not three individuals, but rather three modes or forms in which the Divine Being exists. At the same time, they are of such a nature that they can enter into personal relations. The Father can speak to the Son and vice versa, and both can send forth the Spirit. The real mystery of the Trinity consists in this that each one of the Persons possesses the whole of the divine essence, and that this has no existence outside of and apart from the Persons. The three are not subordinate in being the one to the other, though it may be said that in order of existence the Father is first, the Son second, and the Holy Spirit third, an order which is also reflected in their work.

              2. Scripture Proof for the Trinity. The Old Testament contains some indications of more than one Person in God. God speaks of Himself in the plural, Gen. 1:26; 11:7; the Angel of Jehovah is represented as a divine Person, Gen. 16:7-13; 18:1-21; 19:1-22; and the Spirit is spoken of as a distinct Person, Isa. 48:16; 63:10. Moreover, there are some passages in which the Messiah is speaking and mentions two other Persons, Isa. 48:16; 61:6; 63:9, 10.

              Due to the progress of revelation, the New Testament contains clearer proofs. The strongest proof is found in the facts of redemption. The Father sends the Son into the world, and the Son sends the Holy Spirit. Moreover, there are several passages in which the three Persons are expressly mentioned, such as the great commission, Matt. 28:19, and the apostolic blessing, II Cor. 13:13. Cf. also Luke 3:21, 22; 1:35; I Cor. 12:4-6; I Pet. 1:2.

              This doctrine was denied by the Socinians in the days of the Reformation, and is rejected also by the Unitarians and the Modernists of our own day. If they speak of the Trinity at all, they represent it as consisting of the Father, the man Jesus, and a divine influence which is called the Spirit of God.

              3. The Father. The name ‘Father’ is frequently applied in Scripture to the triune God, as the creator of all things, I Cor. 8:6; Heb. 12:9; Jas. 1:17; as the Father of Israel, Deut. 32:6; Isa. 63:16; and as the Father of believers, Matt. 5:45; 6:6, 9, 14; Rom. 8:15. In a deeper sense, however, it is applied to the First Person of the Trinity, to express His relation to the Second Person, John 1:14, 18; 8:54; 14:12, 13. This is the original Fatherhood, of which all earthly fatherhood is but a faint reflection. The distinctive characteristic of the Father is that He generates the Son from all eternity. The works particularly ascribed to Him are those of planning the work of redemption, creation and providence, and representing the Trinity in the Counsel of Redemption.

              4. The Son. The second person in the Trinity is called ‘Son’ or ‘Son of God.’ He bears this name, however, not only as the only begotten of the Father, John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; Gal. 4:4, but also as the Messiah chosen of God, Matt. 8:29; 26:63; John 1:49; 11:27, and in virtue of His special birth through the operation of the Holy Spirit, Luke 1:32, 35. His special characteristic as the Second Person of the Trinity is that He is eternally begotten of the Father, Ps. 2:7; Acts 13:33; Heb. 1:5. By means of eternal generation the Father is the cause of the personal existence of the Son within the Divine Being. The works more particularly ascribed to Him are works of mediation. He mediated the work of creation, John 1:3, 10; Heb. 1:2, 3, and mediates the work of redemption, Eph. 1:3-14.

              5. The Holy Spirit. Though Socinians, Unitarians, and present day Modernists speak of the Holy Spirit merely as a power or an influence of God, He clearly stands out on the pages of the Bible as a Person, John 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; 16:1-15; Rom. 8:26. He has intelligence, John 14:26, feeling, Isa. 68:10; Eph. 4:30, and will, Acts 16:7; I Cor. 12:11. Scripture represents Him as speaking, searching, testifying, commanding, revealing, striving, and making intercession. Moreover, He is clearly distinguished from His own power in Luke 1:35; 4:14; Acts 10:38; I Cor. 2:4. His special characteristic is that He proceeds from the Father and the Son by spiration, John 15:26; 16:7; Rom. 8:9; Gal. 4:6. In general it may be said that it is His task to bring things to completion both in creation and redemption, Gen. 1:3; Job 26:13; Luke 1:35; John 3:34; I Cor. 12:4-11; Eph. 2:22.
              .
              God bless,
              William

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Origen View Post
                Nope, it did not happen.
                Thanks for the quick answer. With all due respect, perhaps the Council of Nicaea 325 AD shall enlighten us a bit: The First Council of the Nicaea 325 AD was actually a "peace-treaty decreeing harmony between the Jews and the early Church"....Now who were these early Church people? In fact, Origen (ca. 185-ca. 254) a great Alexandrian theologian. A smart guy, probably 71 years old when the Council convened and decreed the doctrine of the trinity, among others.

                A wonderful ecumenical prayer at the end of the Greek text: "Pray for us all that our decisions may remain secure through almighty God and our lord Jesus Christ in the holy Spirit, to whom is the glory for ever and ever. Amen."

                FIRST COUNCIL OF NICAEA - 325 AD

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by PsalmOneCares View Post
                  With all due respect, perhaps the Council of Nicaea 325 AD shall enlighten us a bit: The First Council of the Nicaea 325 AD was actually a "peace-treaty decreeing harmony between the Jews and the early Church"....Now who were these early Church people? In fact, Origen (ca. 185-ca. 254) a great Alexandrian theologian. A smart guy, probably 71 years old when the Council convened and decreed the doctrine of the trinity, among others.
                  None of that refutes or even addresses my points. In fact it supports my points.

                  Your information is not correct on any points.

                  (1) First Council of the Nicaea was not a "peace-treaty decreeing harmony between the Jews and the early Church." All the historical sources are agreed on what the issues were. The main topic has to do with the deity of Christ and arianism. All those who attended were Christians.

                  (2) Origen was long dead (ca. 253/254) by the time of the Nicaea (A.D. 325).

                  Also your quote is flat out wrong. You have not quote the source correctly (if indeed you even took it from the source you cite).

                  We also send you the good news of the settlement concerning the holy pasch, namely that in answer to your prayers this question also has been resolved. All the brethren in the East who have hitherto followed the Jewish practice will henceforth observe the custom of the Romans and of yourselves and of all of us who from ancient times have kept Easter together with you. Rejoicing then in these successes and in the common peace and harmony and in the cutting off of all heresy, welcome our fellow minister, your bishop Alexander, with all the greater honour and love. He has made us happy by his presence, and despite his advanced age has undertaken such great labour in order that you too may enjoy peace.
                  Another issue at the council concerned the correct time for passover\easter. This had nothing to do with the Jews but with the Church and it certainly had nothing to do with a peace treaty between Christians and Jews.

                  Again I ask, perhaps you could give us some primary sources.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Origen View Post
                    None of that refutes or even addresses my points. In fact it supports my points.

                    Your information is not correct on any points.

                    (1) First Council of the Nicaea was not a "peace-treaty decreeing harmony between the Jews and the early Church." All the historical sources are agreed on what the issues were. The main topic has to do with the deity of Christ and arianism. All those who attended were Christians.

                    (2) Origen was long dead (ca. 253/254) by the time of the Nicaea (A.D. 325).

                    Also your quote is flat out wrong. You have not quote the source correctly (if indeed you even took it from the source you cite).

                    Another issue at the council concerned the correct time for passover\easter. This had nothing to do with the Jews but with the Church and it certainly had nothing to do with a peace treaty between Christians and Jews.

                    Again I ask, perhaps you could give us some primary sources.
                    I think we are trying to discuss in a matter of differences on semantics, terminology and phraseology that's causing many differences in our viewpoints. On the 2 facts presented: (Check the above points). They were what they were.
                    • For the Jews, the Christian interpretation perverted the obvious sense of the Scripture;
                    • For the Christians, the Jews were spiritually blind and unable to perceive the true meaning of the "Old Testament" (II Cor.3:14f.)


                    Yeah, I was wrong about the dating on Origen's theological years of study and life when the CN convened the early church. You are right. He had some influence on the deity of Jesus Christ. Nevertheless, I do not believe in "God in three persons." But I believe in the Father is God. The Son (Yeshua) is God manifested in the flesh. And the essence of YHVH (Almighty God) is spirit.

                    John 4:24 "God is a Spirit; and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth"

                    But like previously posted, there is neither Jew nor Greek, man, woman, slave or a free person in God's wonderful plan of salvation in the Messiah Jesus. Gal.3:28
                    Last edited by PsalmOneCares; 04-20-2017, 06:50 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by PsalmOneCares View Post
                      Yeah, I was wrong about the dating on Origen's theological years and life when the CN convened of the early church. You are right. He had some influence of the deity of Jesus Christ. Nevertheless, I do not believe in "God in three persons." But I believe in the Father is God. The Son (Yeshua) is God manifested in the flesh. And the essence of YHVH (Almighty God) is spirit.
                      So which view do you hold, sabellianism or arianism? Sounds like sabellianism.
                      Last edited by Origen; 04-20-2017, 05:05 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Origen View Post
                        So which view do you hold, sabellianism or arianism? Sound like sabellianism.
                        So I'm guessing that watching the LutheranSatire video where St Patrick explains the Trinity probably won't help here ... "That's modalism, Patrick!" [I just love that video.]

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by atpollard View Post
                          So I'm guessing that watching the LutheranSatire video where St Patrick explains the Trinity probably won't help here ... "That's modalism, Patrick!" [I just love that video.]
                          Partialism = Volton lol

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Origen View Post
                            So which view do you hold, sabellianism or arianism? Sound like sabellianism.
                            I don't know. Does it matter? :-)

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by PsalmOneCares View Post
                              I don't know. Does it matter? :-)
                              Why of course it matter. Sabellianism is the belief that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are different modes, faces, aspects, or roles of God, rather than three distinct persons. Do you believe that Christ is God the Father (i.e. the same person)?
                              Last edited by Origen; 04-20-2017, 07:31 PM.

                              Comment

                              Sponsors

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X
                              Articles - News - SiteMap