What is a Non Denominational Christian?

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    #46
    Originally posted by DPMartin View Post
    without looking it up, as far as I know the Lord doesn't address the issue does He? now if you are born into a Jewish family then circumcision is to be on the eighth day correct? so if the Lord has no instructions on baptizing a baby then why do you care? unless you want to add to what the Lord says.
    I'm a little confused now, because it seems that you're making the case that we should only derive our doctrines from the red letters. Is that correct? Obviously it can't be because you're pointing to other Scriptures in Acts.

    Do you believe the rest of Scripture to be inspired? Do you believe the Holy Spirit moved others to speak from God on this subject in Scripture?

    God bless,
    William
    Comment>

      #47
      Originally posted by DPMartin View Post
      notice no interpretations no theology of men just what the scripture says.
      John 4:53 NASB So the father knew that it was at that hour in which Jesus said to him, “Your son lives”; and he himself believed and his whole household.

      Acts 2:38-39 NASB Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”

      Acts 11:14 NASB and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

      Acts 16:15 NASB And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.

      Acts 16:31 NASB They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
      Acts 16:33 NASB And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.

      1 Corinthians 1:16 NASB Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other.

      Ephesians 2:19-22 NASB So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

      Hebrews 11:7 NASB By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

      Originally posted by DPMartin View Post
      so if the Lord has no instructions on baptizing a baby then why do you care?
      So no interpretations and no theology of men, just what scripture says ... I care because I want to do what is right for my daughter (whom I love) to obtain the promised salvation of my household.
      Unfortunately, she was not yet born when I was baptized, so it is less clear than the examples in Acts. Do I hurry and baptize her ASAP or wait for her to repent for herself?

      Are you sure that getting any human advice on so important a decision is a bad thing?

      Since you have probably missed the point I have been making, there is no 'Jesus' answer to this question, so there is no completely non-denominational choice possible without rejecting all scripture and just telling people to do whatever they think is right. You will need to weigh the scripture and decide whether the family covenant or the personal repentence is more important and THAT will make your decision. Whatever decision you make, some will agree and some will disagree. You will, therefore, have at least 2 different 'non-denomimations' split along theological lines. Both convinced in their heart of what it is that God wants. There is even a scripture for this:

      Romans 14:5-6 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.

      Comment>

        #48
        Originally posted by atpollard View Post
        Are you sure that getting any human advice on so important a decision is a bad thing?
        I know you weren't directing your question to me, but if you do not mind I'd like to chime in and say no. I think it quite Scriptural to seek the guidance of such men, as long as they are held accountable in life and doctrine under the authority of Scripture which guides them:
        • Ephesians 4:11-13 11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
        This is why I love the Presbyterian style government. Even though there's an immediate local "eldership" they are still accountable to another presbyter and them another national presbyter. If something stated by a local council on such an issue seemingly is wrong it can repealed "upwards".

        Here's the rub, what happens when clear Scriptural proof or orthodoxy is determined by a council and yet there are individuals which not only refuse to repent of error but also refuse to stop teaching in error? Are there red lines? I couldn't find that kind of discipline in a non-denominational church.

        Does it matter? Well here's an example, you take your little girl to be baptized in your church. She receives the sign, seal, and mark of baptism, but others in the church tell her later how her baptism does not count, and means nothing, she'll need to be rebaptized again in the future. I think that would cause quite a division in the body. Now what happens when a council is formed to resolves the issue? Do people subject themselves to the church council's discipline or do they leave to join or start another denomination?

        God bless,
        William
        Comment>

          #49
          Originally posted by atpollard View Post
          I don't know either, but I am not the person insisting that we need no human opinions on anything because we should all just listen to Jesus on everything and reject all denominations and theology and religious teachers.
          Thanks, now I see what you were saying. Sorry for being a bit thick on that one!

          Originally posted by atpollard View Post
          I think that a Pharisee needs to obey all of the Laws in the OT. I think Jesus had that one covered. Jesus was probably not a formal member of the Pharisee Party since Jesus was not intrested in a future in the Sanhedrin, but in the theological divide between Pharisees and Saudisies, Jesus agreed with the Pharisees.
          Yes, I would agree with you there. You ever hear of Colin Smith, who has a ministry called Unlocking the Bible? He had a little method for keeping the Sadducees and the Pharisees straight. Smith said, "The Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection, that's why they're sad-you-see."
          Comment>

            #50
            Originally posted by atpollard View Post

            John 4:53 NASB So the father knew that it was at that hour in which Jesus said to him, “Your son lives”; and he himself believed and his whole household.

            Acts 2:38-39 NASB Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”

            Acts 11:14 NASB and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

            Acts 16:15 NASB And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.

            Acts 16:31 NASB They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
            Acts 16:33 NASB And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.

            1 Corinthians 1:16 NASB Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other.

            Ephesians 2:19-22 NASB So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

            Hebrews 11:7 NASB By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.



            So no interpretations and no theology of men, just what scripture says ... I care because I want to do what is right for my daughter (whom I love) to obtain the promised salvation of my household.
            Unfortunately, she was not yet born when I was baptized, so it is less clear than the examples in Acts. Do I hurry and baptize her ASAP or wait for her to repent for herself?

            Are you sure that getting any human advice on so important a decision is a bad thing?

            Since you have probably missed the point I have been making, there is no 'Jesus' answer to this question, so there is no completely non-denominational choice possible without rejecting all scripture and just telling people to do whatever they think is right. You will need to weigh the scripture and decide whether the family covenant or the personal repentence is more important and THAT will make your decision. Whatever decision you make, some will agree and some will disagree. You will, therefore, have at least 2 different 'non-denomimations' split along theological lines. Both convinced in their heart of what it is that God wants. There is even a scripture for this:

            Romans 14:5-6 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
            how is it that existence of man's opinion has anything at all to do with the Truth of God. no I didn't miss your useless point all you are say is man's opinion exists. so what opinions are like rear-ends every one has one, thing is what does the Lord think? if you seek to be acceptable with a denomination then you better do what they say you ought to do. but they don't have the power to raise your child from the dead do they? if you seek to be acceptable before the Lord then its what He says, isn't it, and if He doesn't say something is required then why are you insisting something is? oh yea because your friends at the church you frequent say so, correct?


            as far as your love for you child, it doesn't make God chose her does it? you don't get to chose what soul gets saved even if its your child. ask any minister that has lost their children to the ways of the world. Isaac's choice was Esau, but the Lord God said He hated Esau and loved Jacob. and Isaac was a very important part of God's use of Abraham's children wasn't he? and if you don't have respect for God's entitlement to choose who shall be His, then don't expect Him to honor any request on the same matter. Job walked with God, God even declared him righteous. and Job would supplicate and offer for his children's sake, and did that work? no, but Job knew the reality of the situation at hand when it came to his children. God's not obligated to accommodate your whishes, He fulfills His Word therefore if He gives you His Word that your child's soul shall be saved, then He will keep it.


            so yes, ether you seek the Almighty to grant you the salvation of your child's soul, or you wait it out. either way the water ain't going to do a thing.
            Comment>

              #51
              Originally posted by DPMartin View Post
              as far as your love for you child, it doesn't make God chose her does it? you don't get to chose what soul gets saved even if its your child. ask any minister that has lost their children to the ways of the world. Isaac's choice was Esau, but the Lord God said He hated Esau and loved Jacob. and Isaac was a very important part of God's use of Abraham's children wasn't he? and if you don't have respect for God's entitlement to choose who shall be His, the don't expect Him to honor any request on the same matter. Job walked with God, God even declared him righteous. and Job would supplicate and offer for his children's sake, and did that work? no, but Job knew the reality of the situation at hand when it came to his children. God's not obligated to accommodate your whishes, He fulfills His Word therefore if He gives you His Word that your child's soul shall be saved, then He will keep it.
              So you reject baptism as a covenant sign, seal, and mark which extends to children and those afar off? Just clarifying that you're a Credo-Baptist but refuse to label your theology which is derived from a systematic approach to the Scriptures. I personally think it rather obvious that you reject paedo/covenant/household and also baptismal regeneration. Having eluded to atpollard that he should take an inactive approach to his child's covenant position and initiation into the church and wait for her to profess faith is rather Credo. Do you not think so?

              Are you for or against one or two believers taking their children to be baptized? I can think of 1 Corinthians 7:14 which a lot of people seemingly understand to mean that the child is sanctified and holy because of a believing parent, so why should one or both wait? What are they waiting for? Are they not set apart from other worldly children in the eyes of the Lord?

              Do children have a right to become members in the visible church? Didn't Jesus refer to the faith of children as a model for others in order to enter into the kingdom of heaven? Or should children model their faith first after adults before they can enter the kingdom of heaven? If children are able to be received into the kingdom of heaven why are they not able to receive the covenant sign, seal, and mark which initiates them into the church? The prior covenant received children into a covenant relationship, have children been forgotten in the new covenant? If so, is the covenant better or worst for households, and especially children?

              These questions are not going away. Many want to know the answer.

              God bless,
              William
              Comment>

                #52
                Originally posted by William View Post

                I'm a little confused now, because it seems that you're making the case that we should only derive our doctrines from the red letters. Is that correct? Obviously it can't be because you're pointing to other Scriptures in Acts.

                Do you believe the rest of Scripture to be inspired? Do you believe the Holy Spirit moved others to speak from God on this subject in Scripture?

                God bless,
                William
                again, that response was to a question of what the Lord had to say.
                Comment>

                  #53
                  Originally posted by DPMartin View Post

                  again, that response was to a question of what the Lord had to say.
                  Do I really need to repeat the question?

                  God bless,
                  William
                  Comment>

                    #54
                    Originally posted by William View Post

                    Do I really need to repeat the question?

                    God bless,
                    William
                    you need to read all of the postings, why should I have to explain what's there already?:

                    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _
                    atpollard said:

                    So what did Jesus say about the procedure for getting my baby baptized at your church?
                    I don't want to have to rely on the 'theology' of any man, so Jesus perfect answer is important to me.
                    I missed it when I read the Gospels for myself.
                    Will you refuse to give an answer when a brother in Christ asks?


                    and I said:
                    without looking it up, as far as I know the Lord doesn't address the issue does He?





                    now if you are born into a Jewish family then circumcision is to be on the eighth day correct? so if the Lord has no instructions on baptizing a baby then why do you care? unless you want to add to what the Lord says.


                    but this here may be the real issue:

                    Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

                    take note that when Peter went to the gentiles as instructed by God, that his presumption here is that those who receive the Holy Ghost, are to be baptized with water in the case of the Ministry of Grace. therefore as Peter sets it forth who was given the keys to bind and unbind.

                    also its the Israelite that knows the purpose of the baptism by water in the case of one's relationship to the Lord God Almighty. so if your baby has confessed Christ and is baptized in the Holy Spirit, go for it. it might not be likely, but nothing is imposable with God. at least that's what scriptures says doesn't it?

                    besides if you listen to the text as Peter tells the story::

                    Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.


                    note that John the man, baptizes with water but Jesus the Son of God the Word of God, baptizes with the Holy Ghost. and according to the events referred to in Acts the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is first. notice no interpretations no theology of men just what the scripture says.

                    men are always trying to us scripture to justify to other so called believers, but the Truth need no justification.

                    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________


                    any way according to John Jesus didn't baptize with water anyway:

                    Joh 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)


                    if you want get pushy, you should read it all.


                    I do believe even Apostle Paul stated that he himself didn't baptize and left that to others.


                    Comment>

                      #55
                      Originally posted by DPMartin View Post
                      but this here may be the real issue:

                      Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

                      take note that when Peter went to the gentiles as instructed by God, that his presumption here is that those who receive the Holy Ghost, are to be baptized with water in the case of the Ministry of Grace. therefore as Peter sets it forth who was given the keys to bind and unbind.
                      So no one should get baptized?

                      I know of no one who has received the baptism of the Holy Spirit as it appeared in Acts 2, but you claim that Peter says those are the only people who should be Baptized.
                      This is EXACTLY why God gave Teachers to the Church to instruct us in THEOLOGY (words about God).
                      So we don't give bad answers to important questions.

                      (In case you missed it in Acts 10, Peter was making the point that the gentiles received not just A baptism of the Holy Spirit, but the EXACT SAME baptism of the Holy Spirit that the Jewish Disciples in the upper room received in Acts 2 ... tongues of fire and speaking and being heard in multiple real world languages at the same time.)
                      Comment>

                        #56
                        Originally posted by DPMartin View Post
                        I do believe even Apostle Paul stated that he himself didn't baptize and left that to others.
                        Incorrect.
                        Comment>

                          #57
                          Originally posted by DPMartin View Post
                          you need to read all of the postings, why should I have to explain what's there already?
                          Why should anybody want to engage you?

                          Originally posted by DPMartin View Post
                          no I didn't miss your useless point all you are say is man's opinion exists. so what opinions are like rear-ends every one has one, thing is what does the Lord think?
                          Especially when making posts like this?

                          William

                          Comment>

                            #58
                            Originally posted by DPMartin View Post
                            so if your baby has confessed Christ and is baptized in the Holy Spirit, go for it.
                            What about all those places where salvation and baptism was claimed for me and my household?
                            You are ignoring all the verses about my household.
                            Did Peter lie through his teeth in Acts 2 and it isn't for my children?
                            That's what you seem to be telling me.
                            Why should I believe you when you contradict Peter and the book of Acts?

                            You make bold statements, but you don't really back them up and Scripture contradicts what you tell me.
                            You may want to rethink the benefit of reading what others have said about God's word as well as what you read for yourself.
                            Last edited by atpollard; 11-15-2017, 06:15 AM. Reason: spelling
                            Comment>

                              #59
                              Originally posted by DPMartin View Post


                              where in scripture does it say Jesus was a Pharisee? where do you get that assumption at? you are already incorrect.

                              and so what if men use scripture to justify what they want, or want you to believe. how is that not of men? all that proves is men can deceive using scripture it happens all the time. the serpent used what God said to justify the view he wanted Eve to see of God in the garden, didn't he? where do you get these assumptions at?

                              oh yea, here is why you don't see:


                              man's condition doesn't justify anything before God does it? so why are you trying to use man's so called condition of imperfection to justify man's judgment of what biblical truth is. Jesus Justifies buddy get a grip. man is incorrect by his nature alone and before he starts out, because Jesus is correct all the time everywhere. and there is only One Jesus, correct? so anything other then that is incorrect.

                              man's a sinner that justifies his skewed view of things, huh?




                              by your posting you love you world of words according to man of what God meant and said. hey have at it, but save your breath don't try and sell me that bill of no-goods
                              What better Word is there than the Word of God, Himself? I couldn't untangle most of what was said here, but it seems to summarize in " I'm right, you're wrong because Jesus." That makes no sense, either. At this point, I'm not sorry I had to ban him. Somebody who just wants to play " Devil's Advocate" for the joy of the fight might just wind up in Hell.
                              Comment>

                                #60
                                Originally posted by ConfessionalLutheran View Post

                                What better Word is there than the Word of God, Himself? I couldn't untangle most of what was said here, but it seems to summarize in " I'm right, you're wrong because Jesus." That makes no sense, either. At this point, I'm not sorry I had to ban him. Somebody who just wants to play " Devil's Advocate" for the joy of the fight might just wind up in Hell.
                                One can get away with posting error if one has a spirit of humility ... people will take the time to educate you.
                                One can get away with a spirit of arrogance if one posts the truth ... people may hate the delivery, but they will be forced to acknowledge the message.

                                One cannot get away with posting error with a spirit of arrogance for very long ... that was DPMartin's issue (he knew everything, except the TRUTH).
                                Comment>
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