Essential Soteriology?

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  • Essential Soteriology?

    Originally posted by William

    Well to share my thoughts, what you stated is that you're a Baptist for non essential reasons, but you disagree with their soteriology which is essential.



    I consider that a pretty bad analogy because the person is dead, but to entertain your analogy they are dead floating at the bottom of the ocean as a corpse- Ephesians 2:5. Your analogies are false because they suppose the person is alive. The person can do nothing for themselves, because they are DEAD.
    • Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—


    Now which is more Scriptural? Who made us alive? To say that God's sovereignty is limited by man's freedom is to make man sovereign. Furthermore, I think the article is a terrific piece, and I'm yet to hear any sound exegesis against it. If anything these types of responses remind me why I do not want to participate in such discussions. The Scriptures are disregarded for a unscriptural view of salvation. Nowhere in the Bible does it remotely suggest that man has an autonomous or libertarian free will.

    Now only one analogy is correct and that analogy is more appropriately aligned to Scripture which gives all Glory to God Alone.

    God bless,
    William


    William -- will you please explain why you state / what you mean by that I'm a Baptist but for non-essential reasons? What part of Baptist soteriology do I Not agree with but you feel is essential.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Sue D. View Post



    William -- will you please explain why you state / what you mean by that I'm a Baptist but for non-essential reasons? What part of Baptist soteriology do I Not agree with but you feel is essential.
    Hi Sue,

    You already stated that you're a Baptist because, "Biblical baptism by immersion as an indication in public of the decision the person has already made in their heart. That baptism by immersion does Not complete the process of salvation".

    Do you consider the mode of baptism to be essential to salvation? Or do you consider grace and salvation so inseparably annexed to it, that no person can be regenerated, or saved, without it: or, that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated? If not is it essential?

    Soteriology covers doctrine which are essential to salvation. For example, a person that believes in his own works or works righteousness, or rejects the Trinity, if we take them per verbatim is not saved. Likewise, all denominations or Christians for that matter only fall into a handful of camps:
    1. Pelagian: Man is basically good and only needs a moral teacher
    2. Arminianism: Man is only sick and needs only a doctor.
    3. Calvinism: Man is dead and only God can raise Him to new life.
    4. Universalism: Everyone goes to heaven.

    If you know your church history and 2000 years of it, some wonderful and genius debates have come to the forefront. For example: Amazing Grace - The History and Theology of Calvinism -Christforums

    You mentioned that your husband went to a Calvinist seminary. I recommend watching this video with him, perhaps he can further address any questions that may surface. What does a person have to lose? The debates and highlights of them in this video series are pivotal moments. They address Arianism, Pelagianism, Arminianism, and Calvinism. Those that do not know their history are bound to repeat it. And that's what I see, most of the soteriology which comes into the forum comes to surface unwittingly, not knowing that various councils and synods have already addressed these positions.

    Symptomatic of these people that refuse to learn from others such as church fathers and brethren that precedes us does a great discredit and lacks respect for their sacrifices. A lot of the creeds and confessions cost brethren eyes, limbs, or even resulted in torture or death. Some of these people suggest that they need not of the gifts which offices hold, and they have no issue blaming the Holy Spirit for their lack or comprehension or just plain poor interpretations.

    If you watch the video series, I guarantee you'll know essential and non essential doctrine. Idolatry comes in many forms, and some soteriology is nothing more than idolatry of self, for example:
    In Gen 3:5, when Satan, disguised as a serpent, said
    to Eve, “For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened,
    and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”

    Here are the double lies being offered to
    Eve springing out of the same principle behind his botched coup attempt; first, that she
    would be like gods, and thus independent, able to rule over herself apart from God, and
    secondly, there is not one God, but many gods; each is sovereign over himself or herself.


    Lemme ask you, do you know enough about Pelagianism and Arminianism? If not, do you know enough to discern between Orthodox soteriology and the doctrine of devils?

    I wish you the best in your studies! I'll let you answer your own questions by standing on the shoulders of giants. It will be a wonderful and magnificent view in which we see throughout historical church landscape from those giants whose doctrine has stood the scrutiny time.

    God bless,
    William
    Comment>

    • #3
      Baptism by immersion as compared to sprinkling. Sprinkling is not in the Bible. But immersion Is. It is Not part of salvation. It does not Complete salvation -- the thief on the cross who acknowledged Jesus Christ and was assured by Christ that He would be with him that very day in Paradise. The thief had no opportunity For baptism , so obviously baptism is not an essential for salvation. People on their death bed who accept Christ as Savior -- no opportunity for baptism.

      However, baptism Is the outward action by the person To others -- of the decision that has already been made by the person. Whether that action is made the same day, week, month or years later is up to the person and circumstances. Some kids have accepted Christ as their Savior during VBS -- their parents are of a persuasion that the young person was sprinkled as a baby and therefore doesn't need baptism. She was told that if she still wants to be baptized when she's 18, then go ahead. Is that young person Saved? Absolutely.


      Essential doctrinal beliefs -- the virgin birth of Jesus Christ. -- Jesus Christ is the Son of God. --- salvation is Only through Jesus Christ / no good works involved on our part. --- assurance Of salvation / the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer immediately upon belief in their heart and confession with mouth. The Holy Spirit Stays with the believer -- will never leave or forsake us. The death, burial and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ on the third day.

      The Trinity makes salvation possible. So denying the trinity / Godhead is denying salvation.

      Yes, my husband went to a Calvinist Bible college and then to seminary. I was just asking him about the seminary -- it was hyper-Calvinistic. He was there for only 1 yr. The G.I. bill had paid for his Bible college and he Though it covered seminary. It Would have been If the two schools had been together. We didn't know that until after we'd moved cross country to get there. So, he had to work full-time while taking classes. That's why it took him 1 1/2 yrs instead of just one.

      I should Also say that my husband is only a 4 1/2 point Calvinist. His goal had been the Air Force Chaplaincy which did not happen. He knew how to give the answers that were needed to pass and graduate.

      I grew up in a Bible teaching church in Iowa. I know Bible and I went to 2 ys of Bible college. I know sound Bible doctrine when I hear it.


      It has been said by people learning to distinguish counterfeit money from the real thing. You study the Real Thing and you'll recognize the fake in a minute. And you also learn the forgery methods to be up-to-date on what the forgers use.

      Part of the role of the Holy Spirit is to guide the believer in the truth. Read / learn from Scripture -- studying with others.
      Comment>

      • #4
        Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
        Baptism by immersion as compared to sprinkling. Sprinkling is not in the Bible. But immersion Is. It is Not part of salvation. It does not Complete salvation -- the thief on the cross who acknowledged Jesus Christ and was assured by Christ that He would be with him that very day in Paradise. The thief had no opportunity For baptism , so obviously baptism is not an essential for salvation. People on their death bed who accept Christ as Savior -- no opportunity for baptism.

        However, baptism Is the outward action by the person To others -- of the decision that has already been made by the person. Whether that action is made the same day, week, month or years later is up to the person and circumstances. Some kids have accepted Christ as their Savior during VBS -- their parents are of a persuasion that the young person was sprinkled as a baby and therefore doesn't need baptism. She was told that if she still wants to be baptized when she's 18, then go ahead. Is that young person Saved? Absolutely.
        Please stop spouting this, thanks. I've already shown you that baptism is not a work plenty of times, and that Jesus had the power while he was on Earth to forgive sins and that is how the thief on the cross is saved. Guess what, he is no longer on the Earth and the remission of sins is through the baptism of John.

        It's almost as though I'm shouting to a brick wall. I'm absolutely astounded that an individual can be shown the literal verse that says "Baptism is not washing yourself, it is coming to God with a good conscience" AKA "Baptism is not a work," and then repeat exactly what they've said before many times.

        Sue you are in your old age and you are still preaching that baptism is a work, polluting the generations that come after you. What have you done? Did you take a sharpie and cover John 3:5 KJV?

        [Mod Edit]
        Last edited by Origen; 07-09-2017, 02:07 PM.
        Comment>

        • #5
          Originally posted by Trist View Post
          It's almost as though I'm shouting to a brick wall.
          No, on this forum you are talking to people who understand how we are saved and therefore know that what you are teaching about baptism if false.
          Clyde Herrin's Blog
          Comment>

          • #6
            Originally posted by theophilus View Post
            No, on this forum you are talking to people who understand how we are saved and therefore know that what you are teaching about baptism if false.
            And what do you have to say for what Jesus spoke unto Nicodemus in John 3 KJV?
            Comment>

            • #7
              Originally posted by Sue D.
              I'm a Bible person 1st and then Baptist
              Sue, this is the correct attitude to take in spiritual matters. You could also say "I am a Biblicist first and then a Baptist".

              If all Baptists and Presbyterians (as well as others) would take this approach, a lot of issues could be put to rest. Unfortunately, being a strict Biblicist is not a very popular position.
              Comment>

              • #8
                Originally posted by William View Post
                • Pelagian: Man is basically good and only needs a moral teacher
                • Arminianism: Man is only sick and needs only a doctor.
                • Calvinism: Man is dead and only God can raise Him to new life.
                • Universalism: Everyone goes to heaven.
                There is a fifth option and that is Biblicism, which ignores all the controversies and goes directly to the Bible for the answers.

                According to Biblicism (which means each item is clearly supported or stated in Scripture):

                1. All humans beings are sinners by birth and by choice. By birth because of Adam, and by choice because of their inherent sin nature.

                2. All human beings have a conscience, which means all humans can choose to do either good or evil. At the same time, because of indwelling sin, human beings choose more to sin than to do good.

                3. The Bible says that the conscience is really a reflection of the Law (the Ten Commandments) and when Gentiles do the things which are according to this Law, they are "a law unto themselves".

                4. Even though all human beings are sinners, they can be converted by the SUPERNATURAL POWER of two things: (a) The Gospel (which is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes), and (b) the Holy Spirit, who is presently in the world to convict and to convince sinners. Which means that sinners do not (and cannot) receive the Holy Spirit BEFORE they have been born again. This is a primary fallacy of Calvinism, which puts the cart before the horse.

                5. While the Bible does say that all sinners are spiritually dead (until their spirits are revived through the New Birth), that spiritual deadness does not prevent any sinner from responding to the Gospel. Hence we have (within the Bible) several open invitations to all human beings to receive the gift of eternal life.

                6. There is no such term as "total depravity" in the Bible. At the same time, all humans are under condemnation, and there is none righteous, no not one, for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Therefore ALL are guilty before God.

                I could quote all the relevant Scriptures, but for now this is simply an outline of why Biblicism rejects all the other "isms".
                Comment>

                • #9
                  Originally posted by Trist View Post
                  And what do you have to say for what Jesus spoke unto Nicodemus in John 3 KJV?
                  What Jesus said to Nicodemus is Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5).

                  On the surface, it would appear that Christ is speaking about ordinary water, or the water of baptism. But we need to examine ALL the Scriptures pertaining to the New Birth and salvation. And once we do that we discover that "water" is a metaphor for both the Word of God as well as the Holy Spirit. So the correct understanding of "water" in light of all Gospel truth is to paraphrase what Christ said as follows: Except a man be born again by the power of the Gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God, since he cannot be born again without those two supernatural influences.

                  How do we know without the shadow of a doubt that this "water" is really the Gospel? We will take just one Scripture (1 Peter 1:23-25) to prove this (even though there are many other passages which corroborate this truth).

                  23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

                  24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

                  25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.


                  According to this passage:

                  1. What is the basis of the New Birth? THE WORD OF GOD

                  2. How eternal and immutable is the Word of the Lord? IT ENDURETH FOREVER

                  3. Is the Gospel equated to the Word of God? ABSOLUTELY

                  So once again it is through the preaching of the Gospel and the convicting and convincing of the Holy Spirit that spiritually dead men are brought to life, but the New Birth is a RESULT of hearing the Gospel and responding to it with repentance and faith.

                  Comment>

                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Lucas View Post
                    Sue, this is the correct attitude to take in spiritual matters. You could also say "I am a Biblicist first and then a Baptist".

                    If all Baptists and Presbyterians (as well as others) would take this approach, a lot of issues could be put to rest. Unfortunately, being a strict Biblicist is not a very popular position.

                    You're right -- and I appreciate this most recent post of yours.

                    People tend to feel that having a degree with a name -- or having a wonder reputation as a Bible scholar puts them on another level -- and it Is true that lots of people have done a great deal of study in Scripture and write books / sermons, even commentaries with their findings --and we Can learn from them -- but we tend to let Them 'chew' Scripture For us. We need to chew it for ourselves First and then find out what other thoughts are 'out there'.

                    Being a strict Biblicist can Also result in how literal or not that Bible is taken. The creation / 7 /24-hour days or 'one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day'. But that is another subject and just an example.

                    And being a Baptist isn't especially popular, either. Lots of flavors of. We tend to be put in a very small, narrow box. :)
                    Comment>

                    • #11
                      If I may add a comment ? Couldn't the 'water' Also be referring to being born physically? A baby - inside the womb - is enveloped in a bag of water. That water has to be broken in order for a baby / person to be born physically. And when a person has been born Again it is the Holy Spirit who comes to indwell him/ her making the person Alive Spiritually.
                      Comment>

                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Trist View Post

                        Please stop spouting this blasphemy, thanks. I've already shown you that baptism is not a work plenty of times, and that Jesus had the power while he was on Earth to forgive sins and that is how the thief on the cross is saved. Guess what, he is no longer on the Earth and the remission of sins is through the baptism of John.

                        It's almost as though I'm shouting to a brick wall. I'm absolutely astounded that an individual can be shown the literal verse that says "Baptism is not washing yourself, it is coming to God with a good conscience" AKA "Baptism is not a work," and then repeat exactly what they've said before many times.

                        Sue you are in your old age and you are still preaching that baptism is a work, polluting the generations that come after you. What have you done? Did you take a sharpie and cover John 3:5 KJV?

                        STOP LYING TO PEOPLE.

                        Since this post is being directed at Me, personally, I'll take a moment to respond to it.

                        Lucas has just done a beautiful job of responding to your comments.

                        Trist -- you are speaking in ignorance of Scripture. Jesus Christ was here as the Son of God / God incarnate. Not just another man who had power while here on earth to forgive sins. Yes, Jesus Christ Did ascend back up to heaven to sit at the right hand of God the Father. When a person is baptized Scripturally it is in the name of the Father, and Son and Holy Spirit. It is the outward sign of the decision that the person has already made in their heart. John's baptism was a forerunner of believers' baptism . Also -- Jesus was baptized and then started His public ministry here on earth. An example to future believers.

                        So, I'm in my old age, am I. And,no, I'm Not teaching that baptism is a work, never have. John 3:5 "Jesus answered , "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." Read the next two verses. A person needs to be born physically first and then spiritually - made alive by the Holy Spirit coming at the moment of the person's heart belief / acceptance of/ and producing Spiritual life.
                        Comment>

                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
                          If I may add a comment ? Couldn't the 'water' Also be referring to being born physically? A baby - inside the womb - is enveloped in a bag of water. That water has to be broken in order for a baby / person to be born physically. And when a person has been born Again it is the Holy Spirit who comes to indwell him/ her making the person Alive Spiritually.
                          There are at least three biblical reasons why the amniotic fluid (water in the womb) does not fit (although some teach that it does):

                          1. Jesus said "that which is born of the flesh is flesh", and the whole human reproductive process is "of the flesh" (human and of the human body).

                          2. Jesus also said "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit", which means that the New Birth is a supernatural and miraculous intervention by God Himself (thus "born of God"). All human spirits are dead from birth until the New Birth. It is only when a sinner is regenerated that his or her spirit is made alive, and then indwelt by the Holy Spirit. And thus a person's spiritual eyes are opened to the truth and the spirit can also pray and communicate with God.

                          3. Paul applies the metaphor of water to the Word of God, and it is the Word along with the Holy Spirit which brings conviction to human hearts (Ephesians 5:26; Hebrews 4:7,12,13):

                          That he might sanctify and cleanse it [the Church] with the washing of water by the word

                          Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his
                          [the Holy Spirit's] voice, harden not your hearts...

                          For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him [God] with whom we have to do.
                          Comment>

                          • #14
                            At least you're including that there are some who teach that it does -- and I'd be in that group.

                            And, yes, Ephesians 5 passage. I'm not Disagreeing with any of those passages.
                            Comment>

                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
                              At least you're including that there are some who teach that it does -- and I'd be in that group.
                              Let's take another look at John 3:5, and we will immediately notice why human birth and the amniotic fluid are EXCLUDED from this saying of Christ:

                              Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

                              That little word "except" indicates that what is required is exceptional, not normal. Since all human beings come into this world via the womb, there is nothing exceptional about being born physically. So now we need to look for the proper and spiritual meaning of "water". That is why water means the Word of God, and it is the Gospel, and the effect of the Gospel on the sinner, which ultimately leads to the New Birth.

                              But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12,13).

                              No one can receive Christ or believe on His name until and unless he hears (or reads) the Gospel and responds in faith. It is only then that he is born of God.

                              Comment>
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