Discuss science topics such as creation and evolution and how they relate to Christianity.

The flat earth questions.

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  • The flat earth questions.

    How did the Christian religion convince the north European population that the earth was flat?
    For over 1000 years?
    How did they remove all the advanced ancient technology?
    And why was the calender reset?
    I know that it was the birth of JESUS,
    But,
    there's a slight problem,
    We celibrated the millennium in 2000,
    But,
    The Hebrew and roman numerical systems didn't have a zero,
    They started at one.
    And,
    The 12 month calendar was brought in 306 years before the birth of Christ.
    So,
    What was the number of the year, that they reset the calender.
    Because,
    Even using common era or before common era,
    Or using B.C or A.D,
    When we talk about events before the year 1,
    Everything is in minus figures.

    So, how old is the earth?

  • #2
    What makes you think Christians believed in a flat earth? Curious, do you believe in a flat earth or round? Why? What "advanced technology" is needed to determine the earth is round? How old do you think the earth is? Why?
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    • #3
      Is this a poem or multiple questions??
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      • #4
        I don't believe that intelligent people, in any significant number, ever believed the Earth was flat. The head scratcher isn't "You think the Earth is flat?", it's "You think people thought the Earth was flat?"

        Our calendar is probably wrong about the year of Christ's birth. The year isn't known with any certainty, but it's probably a few years before indicated by our Christian calendar. King Herod is thought, by modern scholars, to have died 4 BC, and Jesus was born and had been moved to Egypt while Herod was still alive. But, it's possible that Herod died later than 4 BC.
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        • #5
          Originally posted by Cornelius View Post
          I don't believe that intelligent people, in any significant number, ever believed the Earth was flat. The head scratcher isn't "You think the Earth is flat?", it's "You think people thought the Earth was flat?"

          Our calendar is probably wrong about the year of Christ's birth. The year isn't known with any certainty, but it's probably a few years before indicated by our Christian calendar. King Herod is thought, by modern scholars, to have died 4 BC, and Jesus was born and had been moved to Egypt while Herod was still alive. But, it's possible that Herod died later than 4 BC.

          What qualifies as intelligent? Many ancient cultures affirmed a flat earth.
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          • #6
            Originally posted by RS Presbyterian View Post
            What qualifies as intelligent?
            I think evolution rears its ugly head now and then. It is generally thought that if evolution were true, the further back into history we look, evidence should show a gradual decline in man’s intelligence, moving closer to the ape’s. I find no reason to believe that man was no less intelligent as today.

            God bless,
            William
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            • #7
              Originally posted by RS Presbyterian View Post

              What qualifies as intelligent? Many ancient cultures affirmed a flat earth.
              With most relevance is the claim that Christians in the past believed the Earth was flat. That is complete nonsense.

              Atheists claim the writer of the Genesis creation account thought the Earth was flat. But, that's a figment of their imagination.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by William View Post

                I think evolution rears its ugly head now and then. It is generally thought that if evolution were true, the further back into history we look, evidence should show a gradual decline in man’s intelligence, moving closer to the ape’s. I find no reason to believe that man was no less intelligent as today.

                God bless,
                William
                Why not? Intelligence is different than knowledge. An ancient person can have an incredible intelligent, creative and innovative mind but lack modern facts we have today. That does not make them stupid or less intelligent, because they are reliant on the science of the day.
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cornelius View Post

                  With most relevance is the claim that Christians in the past believed the Earth was flat. That is complete nonsense.

                  Atheists claim the writer of the Genesis creation account thought the Earth was flat. But, that's a figment of their imagination.
                  There is in fact strong evidence that some Christian believed the world was flat. It is not reasonable to uphold the knowledge of the ancients to that of modern scientific discovery. Consider this passage written by St. Augustine of Hippo:

                  [SIZE=14px]"[FONT=Book Antiqua]It is also frequently asked what our belief must be about the form and shape of heaven according to Sacred Scripture. Many scholars engage in lengthy discussions on these matters, but the sacred writers with their deeper wisdom have omitted them. Such subjects are of no profit for those who seek beatitude, and, what is worse, they take up very precious time that ought to be given to what is spiritually beneficial.[/FONT][/SIZE]

                  [SIZE=14px][FONT=Book Antiqua]What concern is it of mine whether heaven is like a sphere and the earth is enclosed by it and suspended in the middle of the universe, or whether heaven like a disk above the earth covers it over on one side?*[/FONT]

                  [FONT=Book Antiqua]But the credibility of Scripture is at stake, and as I have indicated more than once, there is danger that a man uninstructed in divine revelation, discovering something in Scripture or hearing from it something that seems to be at variance with the knowledge he has acquired, may resolutely withhold his assent in other matters where Scripture presents useful admonitions, narratives, or declarations. Hence, I must say briefly that in the matter of the shape of heaven the sacred writers knew the truth, but that the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, did not wish to teach men these facts that would be of no avail for their salvation."[/FONT][/SIZE]

                  [FONT=Book Antiqua]-St. Augustine, [/FONT]
                  [FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT]‘The Shape of the [/FONT][FONT= ]Material [/FONT][FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT]Heaven’ in [/FONT][FONT= ]Literal Meaning of Genesis, [/FONT][FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT](NY: Newman, 1982 [415]), I:58-59. [/FONT]

                  [FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT,Italic][SIZE=14px]Some comments on this passage, it is clear that Augustine is discussing a science vs. scripture debate of his time, the Greek Geocentric model vs. the Ancient Cosmology of a 3-Teir Universe (flat earth). Notice how Augustine argues that Scripture does not address these issues, and instead Christians should be preoccupied with those things which are spiritually beneficial. In fact, he's right! Who's arguing how the system of the heavens works today? Indeed, these debates ended up being a waste of time; but show the fact that the Holy Scriptures are not bound by cultural relevance and science of the day, but are used by Christ through the Holy Spirit to bring about conviction of sin and repentance unto salvation, and are not primarily concerned with defining scientific reality. Therefore, it is reasonable to believe that ancient Christians accepted the contemporary science of their day.[/SIZE][/FONT]

                  Comment>

                  • #10
                    Read the book of Job, where the Bible says it is round. Columbus was a Christian. He may have gotten his belief in a round earth from the Bible. Queen Isabella of Spain obviously thought it is round or she wouldn't have given Chris the support to go on his voyage. All kinds of people in that day thought it was flat.
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by RS Presbyterian View Post

                      Why not? Intelligence is different than knowledge. An ancient person can have an incredible intelligent, creative and innovative mind but lack modern facts we have today. That does not make them stupid or less intelligent, because they are reliant on the science of the day.
                      Not clear about your question (why not?). I realize that there is a difference between intelligence and knowledge, and I agree with you that one can be reliant upon science or the narration of scientist in establishing a worldview or facts. My initial line of questions in response to Phil was actually to determine whether this be so. Do I believe the earth is round or flat because they tell me to? Do I believe the earth is x amount of years old because they tell me so, etc? I would think that "ancient man" could look into the sky and see the moon is round, the sun is round, the shadow's edge of the earth upon the moon during a lunar eclipse is round. Likewise, other observations such as looking out at the horizon over the ocean and seeing the bend of the horizon with the round sun or moon in the background, or watching ships disappear over the horizon by lowering as they descend. Thus, I believe there are many reasons to think that people from long ago believed in a round earth, before others told them so.

                      God bless,
                      William
                      Comment>

                      • #12
                        Originally posted by William View Post

                        Not clear about your question (why not?). I realize that there is a difference between intelligence and knowledge, and I agree with you that one can be reliant upon science or the narration of scientist in establishing a worldview or facts. My initial line of questions in response to Phil was actually to determine whether this be so. Do I believe the earth is round or flat because they tell me to? Do I believe the earth is x amount of years old because they tell me so, etc? I would think that "ancient man" could look into the sky and see the moon is round, the sun is round, the shadow's edge of the earth upon the moon during a lunar eclipse is round. Likewise, other observations such as looking out at the horizon over the ocean and seeing the bend of the horizon with the round sun or moon in the background, or watching ships disappear over the horizon by lowering as they descend. Thus, I believe there are many reasons to think that people from long ago believed in a round earth, before others told them so.

                        God bless,
                        William
                        Okay, I think we're saying the same thing than, sorry about that. However, I don't think those remarks would easily conclude a spherical earth, nor that everyone was actively think about those things. Even in Augustine's time there were debates over a flat and spherical earth (Augustine was a platonist).
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by RS Presbyterian View Post

                          Okay, I think we're saying the same thing than, sorry about that. However, I don't think those remarks would easily conclude a spherical earth, nor that everyone was actively think about those things. Even in Augustine's time there were debates over a flat and spherical earth (Augustine was a platonist).
                          Of course not everyone is actively thinking about every specific thing. My point is that we do not need for others to tell us what is so observable. A round earth is observable from an earthly perspective, despite Phil suggesting that there was need for "advanced technology" to determine the earth as so. And I am not arguing that Augustine was or was not influenced by platonist thinkers.

                          God bless,
                          William
                          Comment>

                          • #14
                            Originally posted by RS Presbyterian View Post
                            it is clear that Augustine is discussing a science vs. scripture debate of his time, the Greek Geocentric model vs. the Ancient Cosmology of a 3-Teir Universe (flat earth). Notice how Augustine argues that Scripture does not address these issues, and instead Christians should be preoccupied with those things which are spiritually beneficial. In fact, he's right!
                            I think more likely, Augustine is discussing a no-scholarly science vs. scholarly science debate. Augustine says the Bible doesn't address the topic, therefore he didn't see it as science vs. scripture. And, anyone who gave it any real thought, especially if a traveler, would reach the right conclusion.

                            The issue with the flat-earth accusation is that today it takes real insanity to believe the Earth is flat (I've never met anyone who believes the Earth is flat, nor any argument argument that the Earth is flat). So, Christians of the past are being accused of holding a view that is insane by today's standards. Ergo, Christians are insane. In reality, a Christian was probably never more likely to be flat-earther than anyone else. And, if the spherical Earth wasn't so obvious, then Christians, and anyone, of the past shouldn't be held to the modern standards of knowledge (not intelligence), where we have photos of the Earth from space.

                            It needs be addressed to respond to the lie that Christians are insane. There are other modern "scientific" issues need to be addressed as well, such as the false claim that science says homosexuals are born that way, because this goes to the credibility of the Bible. What might be a waste of time is Christians arguing over global warming. I don't see how the global warming debate has any relevance to the credibility of scripture, like maybe the shape of the Earth in Augustine's time.
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Cornelius View Post
                              The issue with the flat-earth accusation is that today it takes real insanity to believe the Earth is flat (I've never met anyone who believes the Earth is flat, nor any argument argument that the Earth is flat). So, Christians of the past are being accused of holding a view that is insane by today's standards.
                              I agree with you brother. The stature of a predominant social group or a weighty belief of popular opinion concerning matters has the potential to not only influence but bend a person's perception. By today's standard anyone can see for themselves pictures of the earth, but that still does not excuse believing things in the name of science by unscientific means. The earth is round and that fact has always been observable. Other topics such as origins or creation are not directly observable nor repeatable, therefore those believing in a Darwinian evolutionary view that hold to the decline of intelligence towards the beginning is unscientific nonsense. If anything, it puts a whole new spin on peer review, again, origins are not observable or repeatable, only the secular narration of stick figures (fossils) or peer reviews are.

                              God bless,
                              William
                              Comment>
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