Apologetics may be simply defined as the defense of the Christian faith. The word "apologetics" derives from the Greek word apologia, which was originally used as a speech of defense.

Is or Means?

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  • Is or Means?

    [FONT=trebuchet ms][SIZE=16px]In the last supper dialogues is it "is" or is it "means" when the Lord says "this is my body" and "this is the blood of the new covenant"? My copy of the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (the bible that Jehovah's witnesses use) says it this way:
    (Matthew 26:26-30) 26 As they continued eating, Jesus took a loaf, and after saying a blessing, he broke it, and giving it to the disciples, he said: “Take, eat. This means my body.” 27 And taking a cup, he offered thanks and gave it to them, saying: “Drink out of it, all of you, 28 for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins. 29 But I say to you: I will by no means drink again any of this product of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in the Kingdom of my Father.” 30 Finally, after singing praises, they went out to the Mount of Olives.
    If you were translating this passage to make sure that everybody would understand it properly what word would you choose "is" or "means" or is there some other word that would do even better in your opinion?[/SIZE][/FONT]
    Last edited by peppermint; 06-13-2015, 09:51 PM.

  • #2
    I'd leave it alone per the KJV. The JW Bible, I wouldn't go near. The verse is speaking metaphorically; spiritually, not carnally or literally. We covered that in the other thread.
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    • #3
      Originally posted by Stratcat View Post
      I'd leave it alone per the KJV. The JW Bible, I wouldn't go near. The verse is speaking metaphorically; spiritually, not carnally or literally. We covered that in the other thread.
      [FONT=trebuchet ms][SIZE=16px]It's good of you t come to this out of the way sub forum to reply to my post, I thank you for doing that.

      I too would stick with "is" and the KJV does a fine job in translating the passage as
      And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
      (Matthew 26:26-30 KJV)
      So the question is, as a famous TV interview once put it, "what does 'is' mean"?[/SIZE][/FONT]
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      • #4
        Jesus is also called the Lamb of God. This does not mean He is literally a lamb. At the Last Supper, Jesus shared with His disciples a mystery... of His crucifixion, which was not far off. This is my body which is broken... like the bread; this is my blood... which is the blood He shed on the cross. The mystery would be cleared up at the crucifixion. As a reminder of His crucifixion, as oft as ye do this do in remembrance of me. This was a demonstration of what would happen to Him on the day He was to be crucified. His body was broken, and his blood was shed to cleanse many of their sins for His name's sake.
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        • #5
          Originally posted by Stratcat View Post
          Jesus is also called the Lamb of God. This does not mean He is literally a lamb. At the Last Supper, Jesus shared with His disciples a mystery... of His crucifixion, which was not far off. This is my body which is broken... like the bread; this is my blood... which is the blood He shed on the cross. The mystery would be cleared up at the crucifixion. As a reminder of His crucifixion, as oft as ye do this do in remembrance of me. This was a demonstration of what would happen to Him on the day He was to be crucified. His body was broken, and his blood was shed to cleanse many of their sins for His name's sake.
          [FONT=trebuchet ms][SIZE=16px]I can recall the Lord Jesus Christ being called "The lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" but that isn't quite the same as "Jesus is the lamb". I've seen folk refer to Jesus as the door (or gate) and as the way, the truth, and the life as well as the light of the world but I am inclined to take these as truth rather than metaphors. That is to say I believe that Jesus is the way and the truth and the life (John 14:6 KJV) and that Jesus is the light of the world (John 8:12). And even though there are metaphorical uses for words in holy scripture I am inclined to see the metaphor as operating in the opposite direction from which many appear to see it. Here's an example of how a metaphor relating to God works in a surprising way:
          For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God. (Ephesians 3:14-19 KJV)
          The idea of this kind of metaphor is that the eternal and the heavenly is the template and the earthly is the derived form. Thus the door that Jesus declares himself to be (John 10:7 KJV) is the pattern from which earthly doors are derived. Thus the body of Christ is the pattern from which earthly bread is derived and the blood of Christ is the pattern from which earthly wine is derived. It is no surprise then that the Lord should use the earthly shadows to become the eternal realities in the holy supper.[/SIZE][/FONT]
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          • #6
            Just to clarify peppermint, is a cracker, a cracker, a cup of wine, wine, and water nothing more than water? Or are you attributing more to the cracker, wine and water? If so, please elaborate.

            God bless,
            William
            Comment>

            • #7
              Originally posted by William View Post
              Just to clarify peppermint, is a cracker, a cracker, a cup of wine, wine, and water nothing more than water? Or are you attributing more to the cracker, wine and water? If so, please elaborate.

              God bless,
              William
              [SIZE=16px][FONT=trebuchet ms]Are you referring to the bread & wine of the holy Eucharist? In the Eucharist the bread (unleavened bread made from wheat-flour and water) and the wine (natural fermented wine) are ordinary earthly bread and wine until the Holy Spirit changes them to become the sacramental presence of the Lord Jesus Christ in keeping with the words of the Lord, "Take, eat; this is my body" and "This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.[/FONT][/SIZE][SIZE=16px][FONT=trebuchet ms]" For the faithful in Christ this is a miracle worked by God and embraced by faith because eyes and senses cannot perceive the change but only ears hear the word of institution and faith apprehends them and so for the faithful who receive them worthily they are received with thanks and the blessing of God.[/FONT][/SIZE]
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              • #8
                Originally posted by peppermint View Post
                [SIZE=16px][FONT=trebuchet ms]Are you referring to the bread & wine of the holy Eucharist? In the Eucharist the bread (unleavened bread made from wheat-flour and water) and the wine (natural fermented wine) are ordinary earthly bread and wine until the Holy Spirit changes them to become the sacramental presence of the Lord Jesus Christ in keeping with the words of the Lord, "Take, eat; this is my body" and "This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.[/FONT][/SIZE][SIZE=16px][FONT=trebuchet ms]" For the faithful in Christ this is a miracle worked by God and embraced by faith because eyes and senses cannot perceive the change but only ears hear the word of institution and faith apprehends them and so for the faithful who receive them worthily they are received with thanks and the blessing of God.[/FONT][/SIZE]
                So anyone can perform this Sacrament? Or is the presence of the Lord dependent upon the "giver" of the sacrament?

                God bless,
                William

                Comment>

                • #9
                  Originally posted by William View Post

                  So anyone can perform this Sacrament? Or is the presence of the Lord dependent upon the "giver" of the sacrament?

                  God bless,
                  William
                  [FONT=trebuchet ms][SIZE=16px]Since it is the Holy Spirit who works the change it may be done by those whom he calls to that work. They are the bishops and presbyters of the Church who are ordained in apostolic succession.[/SIZE][/FONT]
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by peppermint View Post

                    [FONT=trebuchet ms][SIZE=16px]Since it is the Holy Spirit who works the change it may be done by those whom he calls to that work. They are the bishops and presbyters of the Church who are ordained in apostolic succession.[/SIZE][/FONT]
                    Presbyters? Please elaborate. I belong to a Presbyterian denomination, and never has that been mentioned or emphasized. And, you believe presbyters were ordained in Apostolic Succession? Lemme ask you peppermint, concerning Paul who was not in the line of Apostolic Succession, established churches, are those illegitimate? He installed Timothy and Titus, as Pastors, are they illegitimate?

                    God bless,
                    William
                    Comment>

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by William View Post

                      Presbyters? Please elaborate. I belong to a Presbyterian denomination, and never has that been mentioned or emphasized. And, you believe presbyters were ordained in Apostolic Succession? Lemme ask you peppermint, concerning Paul who was not in the line of Apostolic Succession, established churches, are those illegitimate? He installed Timothy and Titus, as Pastors, are they illegitimate?

                      God bless,
                      William
                      [FONT=trebuchet ms][SIZE=16px]Presbyters are elders, the folk who assist the bishop and pastor parish churches within the bishop's diocese.[/SIZE]

                      [SIZE=16px]Saint Paul was chosen by Christ to be an apostle, he was not one of the twelve but he was an apostle as he himself wrote in his letters thus saints Timothy and Titus were ordained as bishops in apostolic succession.[/SIZE][/FONT]
                      Last edited by peppermint; 06-14-2015, 11:52 PM.
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                      • #12
                        [SIZE=16px][FONT=trebuchet ms]Priest: etymologically "elder", from presbyteros , presbyter has taken the meaning of "sacerdos", from which no substantive has been formed in various modern languages English, French, German.[/FONT][/SIZE]
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                        • #13
                          Peppermint, please show in Scriptures where it says that the bread became Jesus' body and the wine His blood by some supernatural means, which would eliminate the possibility of understanding this to be metaphor.

                          We are to make sure we are in the will of God before we partake or we eat and drink damnation unto ourselves, but that is because the communion is an holy sacrament which is to be taken in holiness at the time it is done. Bread and wine used in any other way are just bread and wine.

                          To use them as the sacrament is to partake of them in such manner as Jesus instructed. No priest or other church clergy is mentioned or needed to perform the ceremony, Biblically speaking. All believers have the Holy Spirit, so hypothetically, any believer could by miracle, change them... hypothetically. But it is not so, for the bread and wine don't actually change in any way but in our hearts as we partake, in remembrance of Him.
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Stratcat View Post
                            Peppermint, please show in Scriptures where it says that the bread became Jesus' body and the wine His blood by some supernatural means, which would eliminate the possibility of understanding this to be metaphor.

                            We are to make sure we are in the will of God before we partake or we eat and drink damnation unto ourselves, but that is because the communion is an holy sacrament which is to be taken in holiness at the time it is done. Bread and wine used in any other way are just bread and wine.

                            To use them as the sacrament is to partake of them in such manner as Jesus instructed. No priest or other church clergy is mentioned or needed to perform the ceremony, Biblically speaking. All believers have the Holy Spirit, so hypothetically, any believer could by miracle, change them... hypothetically. But it is not so, for the bread and wine don't actually change in any way but in our hearts as we partake, in remembrance of Him.
                            [FONT=trebuchet ms][SIZE=16px]I am sure I have already done what you ask; in that the Lord Jesus said "this is my body" and if his words could create the world (John 1:1-3 KJV) how much more easily can he speak his own body into existence in his own hands? And since the Lord gave his spirit to the apostles (John 20:19-23 KJV) and then to all his disciples (Acts 2:1-4 KJV) it is easy to see how and why the memorial supper of the Lord is also one form in which his promised presence is made permanent in the Church (Matthew 28:18-20 KJV) furthermore the last supper was in the upper room with the apostles present and to them the Lord said "do this in memory of me" but he said no such thing to those outside the room who were not his apostles (Luke 22:15-20) thus we know that it is to the apostles and to those whom they appointed to be bishops as the Holy Spirit called them that this supper is appointed to be presided over as the Lord himself presided over it and the faithful partake of it as saint Paul instructs in his first letter to the Corinthians.[/SIZE][/FONT]
                            Last edited by peppermint; 06-15-2015, 09:56 AM.
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                            • #15
                              Luke 22:14-20 and 1 Corinthians 11:20-34 explain the Lord's supper in great detail.
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