Apologetics may be simply defined as the defense of the Christian faith. The word "apologetics" derives from the Greek word apologia, which was originally used as a speech of defense.

The Ontological Argument

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The Ontological Argument

    Over the past few years or so the Ontological Argument has had made a bit of a comeback (and reworking) thanks to Christian philosophers like Alvin Plantinga, William Lane Craig, and others.

    The Ontological Argument - YouTube

    Any thoughts?

  • #2
    More irrelevant psychobabble pushed forward by people who have nothing better to do than to come up with reasons why, or why not, something exists. The fact that we have the bible, something that men on their own are unable to put together without a miraculous intervention and guide to complete it, proves God exists. But that is not the only thing that points to the existence of God. One does not need to look too far in nature to see additional evidence.
    Comment>

    • #3
      Originally posted by Knotical View Post
      More irrelevant psychobabble pushed forward by people who have nothing better to do than to come up with reasons why, or why not, something exists. The fact that we have the bible, something that men on their own are unable to put together without a miraculous intervention and guide to complete it, proves God exists. But that is not the only thing that points to the existence of God. One does not need to look too far in nature to see additional evidence.
      Can't we use both methods? Is there not a place for philosophical arguments?
      Comment>

      • #4
        But to what end? If we are just going to hash on about a bunch of whatifs then no. I consider those kinds of discussions a waste of time. There are more important things to talk about.
        Comment>

        • #5
          Originally posted by Knotical View Post
          But to what end? If we are just going to hash on about a bunch of whatifs then no. I consider those kinds of discussions a waste of time. There are more important things to talk about.
          I understand this is not something you find interesting or compelling and that is fine. However many others don't feel the same way. I do find them interesting and in some cases compelling.
          Comment>

          • #6
            Originally posted by Origen View Post
            Any thoughts?
            Just as a philosophical thought experiment, god isn't Maximally Great.

            Specifically, the assumption that he must exist in EVERY possible universe is false ... Rather, what if each view of god held by man exists in some universe, yet none are 'maximally' great because they do not 'MUST' exist in all universes. It is possible to imagine a universe in which no god exists. Therefore the nearly-maximally great god exists in every universe except one.

            Thus it is possible, however statistically unlikely, that the True Universe is the one in which there is no god.

            ###

            I generally found the video interesting, but can't shake the feeling that it is a circular argument ... even if I can't put my finger on what might be a logical fallacy within it.

            I'll chew on it some more and see if anything pops out at me.

            Comment>

            • #7
              Originally posted by atpollard View Post
              I generally found the video interesting, but can't shake the feeling that it is a circular argument ... even if I can't put my finger on what might be a logical fallacy within it.
              It is interesting you should say that. Many people feel the same way. I can't put my finger on exactly what it is.

              Comment>

              • #8
                Originally posted by atpollard View Post
                Just as a philosophical thought experiment, god isn't Maximally Great.

                Specifically, the assumption that he must exist in EVERY possible universe is false ... Rather, what if each view of god held by man exists in some universe, yet none are 'maximally' great because they do not 'MUST' exist in all universes. It is possible to imagine a universe in which no god exists. Therefore the nearly-maximally great god exists in every universe except one.

                Thus it is possible, however statistically unlikely, that the True Universe is the one in which there is no god.

                ###

                I generally found the video interesting, but can't shake the feeling that it is a circular argument ... even if I can't put my finger on what might be a logical fallacy within it.

                I'll chew on it some more and see if anything pops out at me.
                Actually, it would be impossible for a universe to exist without God, as He is the Creator. Without Him nothing is made, or exists.
                Comment>

                • #9
                  Originally posted by Origen View Post
                  Over the past few years or so the Ontological Argument has had made a bit of a comeback (and reworking) thanks to Christian philosophers like Alvin Plantinga, William Lane Craig, and others.

                  The Ontological Argument - YouTube

                  Any thoughts?
                  Thanks for posting.

                  I wonder if you would mind explaining your purpose in posting. Specifically, do you think that there is a person anywhere who does not believe that God exists?
                  Comment>

                  • #10
                    Originally posted by thatbrian View Post
                    Thanks for posting. I wonder if you would mind explaining your purpose in posting.
                    Because I find it interesting and I thought others might as well.

                    Originally posted by thatbrian View Post
                    Specifically, do you think that there is a person anywhere who does not believe that God exists?
                    Many people claim not to believe in a god. I see no reason to not accept their claim that they don't.
                    Comment>

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Origen View Post
                      Because I find it interesting and I thought others might as well.
                      I find it interesting as well.

                      Originally posted by Origen View Post
                      Many people claim not to believe in a god. I see no reason to not accept their claim that they don't.
                      What do you make of Romans 1, in that case?

                      For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
                      24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
                      26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
                      28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
                      Comment>

                      • #12
                        Originally posted by thatbrian View Post
                        What do you make of Romans 1, in that case?
                        It is a powerful apologetic written by the Apostle Paul that rips away any excuse for not believing and places the blame for unbelief squarely upon the shoulders of each individual.
                        Comment>

                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Origen View Post
                          It is a powerful apologetic written by the Apostle Paul that rips away any excuse for not believing and places the blame for unbelief squarely upon the shoulders of each individual.
                          So, all do know that there is a God, in other words, and when they say that they don't, they lie.
                          Comment>

                          • #14
                            Originally posted by thatbrian View Post
                            So, all do know that there is a God, in other words, and when they say that they don't, they lie.
                            The text states they should have known better because God revealed Himself, therefore they are without excuse.
                            Comment>

                            • #15
                              Romans 1 explains men who create for themselves a false god. It applies to New Age religions and all forms of self worship. (Since we as a rule tend not to worship statues of animals made of gold).

                              Atheism has deeper and darker roots. In my case it went back to a violation of the first commandment. The empirical evidence of the experiences of life to that point attacked the very definition of god as being good. The logic argument went something like this:

                              god was, by definition, omnipotent, omnicient and omnipresent. Therefore the great evil that happens occurs because god was unable to stop it (he is not omnipotent). Or perhaps god was unaware of the great evil going on (he is not omnicient). Or perhaps he was busy somewhere else when that particular evil was happening (he is not omnipresent). If god is not omnipotent, omnicient or omnipresent, then he is, by definition, not god. Why worship something that is not god and unable to get the job done ... his arm is indeed short.

                              The alternative, is that God is omnipotent, omnicient and omnipresent. That he really does exist. That he had the power to do something, that he was aware of the evil going on, that he was in a position to intervene ... and God chose to stand by and do nothing. This means that God exists, but is not good. Even by neutral human standards, God is at best amoral and at worst immoral.

                              Thus the struggle becomes to believe in an impotent god or an evil God.
                              Enter someone like Bertrand Russel with: "The evidence of contemporary Christian life is such, that God, if he ever existed, must surely be dead."

                              It is far easier to believe in a universe in which God does not exist, than one in which god is impotent or God is evil. Thus the sin behind atheism is often very different than what is described in Romans 1.

                              As an atheist planning a suicide bombing, I considered long and hard the possibility that I might face the judgement of God. I accepted that if God existed that I belonged in hell ... surrounded by beings that hated him as much as I did for his indifference.

                              I hope that sheds some light on atheism.
                              Comment>
                              Working...
                              X
                              Articles - News - SiteMap