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What are the reasons to believe in a rapture, that happens before the second coming

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    What are the reasons to believe in a rapture, that happens before the second coming

    I enjoy discussing Revelation, but it is hard when you are immediately confronted with the rapture.
    The problem with not agreeing on the rapture effects everything in Revelation. We wont be able to agree on most things in Revelations because of this one topic, which makes this topic very important to me.

    It is my belief that the rapture and the second coming are the same advent.

    What are the biblical verses to believe otherwise







    #2
    Sorry to answer a question with a question, but you are speaking in 'buzz words' that people often mean very different things when they say.

    So what sort of general things, just a thumbnail description, happen at this event you are thinking of when you say 'the second coming'?

    [I assume that when you speak of 'the rapture' you are referring to an event like what is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 NASB and Matthew 24:36-40 NASB].

    1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 NASB For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

    Matthew 24:36-40 NASB “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
    Comment>

      #3
      I am not sure what you mean by buzz words, but I am sure everyone here knows what is the difference between the rapture and the second coming, so when I say I believe they are the same advent, I would imagine everyone here understands what I am saying.

      Comment>

        #4
        At the rapture believers will be taken out of the world. At the second coming Jesus will come to the earth to reign here. Between these two events there will be a period of time known as the Tribulation. Most of the book of Revelation describes what will happen on earth during this time.
        Clyde Herrin's Blog
        Comment>

          #5
          From my understanding of Scripture -- it's the question of When the rapture will take place. Before the 7-yr tribulation starts, mid-way through the 7 -yrs. or at the end of that 7 yr period of time. The 2nd coming of Jesus Christ to stand on the Mt of Olives takes place After the 7-yrs of tribulation time. And mid-way through the 7 yrs is when the Great Tribulation starts.

          That's where the terms Pre-Trib Rapture / Mid-Trib and Post-Trib come from.

          Scripture passages tell us that there is activity taking place in Heaven during the 7 yrs. here on earth. The Marriage Super of the Lamb is one event taking place in heaven.

          There are those who believe that the Church does not need to experience God's wrath that will be displayed here on earth. God's not angry with believers -- but with those who have chosen to reject Him.

          And there are those who believe that the Church will only be spared from the last 3 12 yrs -- the Great Tribulation period.

          And there are Also those who believe that the Church will be here during the entire7 yrs. and Then be taken up -- but just in time for the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ. But when does that leave time for the Bride of Christ to be united with Him and the Marriage Supper to take place in heaven.

          For years I've been a Pre-Trib rapture person -- but lately, Maybe a Mid-Trib rapture person. But pretty much the Pre T. position.
          Comment>

            #6
            Originally posted by Guppy View Post
            I am not sure what you mean by buzz words, but I am sure everyone here knows what is the difference between the rapture and the second coming, so when I say I believe they are the same advent, I would imagine everyone here understands what I am saying.
            I know what "I" mean when I speak of the Second Coming, but I have no way to know what "YOU" mean when you use that phrase.

            For example, is the second coming when you believe Jesus will return to gather his bride and we will meet him in the air? Is the second coming the beginning of Jesus' thousand year reign on the Earth? Is the second coming when all are gathered before the judgement seat and judged by Jesus and sent off to their eternal destiny?

            All of the above? Some of the above?

            you have asked me to provide verses to prove that the Rapture is not the same as the Second Coming, however if the Second Coming is just meeting Jesus in the air, then they are the same event (in my opinion) and I can provide no verses to the contrary. If the Second Coming is the thousand year reign of Christ on the earth, then I will need to look to one set of verses to provide the requested proof. If the second coming is the final judgement of the living and the dead, then I will need to look to different verses to prove that is or is not the same as the rapture. If you imagine yet some other scriptural event as the heart of the second coming, then I would need to turn to yet other verses to prove that it is not the rapture.

            So the general non-specificity of your request places an unreasonable burden on me to first read your mind and then respond to what I think you mean in order to provide the requested proof.

            Since I can't read your mind and you see no need to clarify your question, why don't YOU provide scriptural proof that the Rapture and Second Coming ARE the same event and we will follow the Berean example and test your claims against the full body of scripture.


            PS: Here are all the scripture verses contains the words "second" and "coming" ...

            Exo 25:35
            “A [fn]bulb shall be under the first pair of branches coming out of it, and a [fn]bulb under the second pair of branches coming out of it, and a [fn]bulb under the third pair of branches coming out of it, for the six branches coming out of the lampstand.

            Exo 37:21
            and a [fn]bulb was under the first pair of branches coming out of it, and a [fn]bulb under the second pair of branches coming out of it, and a [fn]bulb under the third pair of branches coming out of it, for the six branches coming out of the lampstand.

            Ezr 3:8
            Now in the second year of their coming to the house of God at Jerusalem in the second month, Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel and Jeshua the son of Jozadak and the rest of their brothers the priests and the Levites, and all who came from the captivity to Jerusalem, began the work and appointed the Levites from twenty years and older to oversee the work of the house of the LORD.

            Rev 11:14
            The second woe is past; behold, the third woe is coming quickly.

            So the Bible must have a different term for what you call the "Second Coming".
            Comment>

              #7
              I really didn't mean for this to be difficult.

              I don't believe in a pre tribulation rapture or a mid tribulation rapture.

              My question was simply, why do you or others believe in a pre or mid tribulation rapture.
              I am willing to share why I don't believe, but I first wanted to understand why others believe as they do. I believe it is an important subject because we will never agree on revelation if we disagree here

              Comment>

                #8
                Originally posted by Guppy View Post
                My question was simply, why do you or others believe in a pre or mid tribulation rapture.
                I am willing to share why I don't believe, but I first wanted to understand why others believe as they do. I believe it is an important subject because we will never agree on revelation if we disagree here.
                Good luck with that.
                Personally, I avoid Revelation when attempting to answer what few questions I have about the end times. The task of accurately dividing literal (if spiritual) events from symbolism (which must then be correctly identified) seems almost an impossible foundation to build consensus from.

                I am a "Pan-tribulation-ist" ... I believe it will all pan out in the end. ;)

                As a sort of peace offering, let me present just some thoughts on the end times (in no particular order):


                Acts 1:9-11 NASB
                9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And as they were gazing intently into [fn]the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11 They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into [fn]the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”

                Matthew 24:36-41 NASB
                36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 For [fn]the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not [fn]understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then there will be two men in the field; one [fn]will be taken and one [fn]will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the [fn]mill; one [fn]will be taken and one [fn]will be left.


                Luke 17:22-37 NASB
                22 And He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 They will say to you, ‘Look there! Look here!’ Do not go away, and do not run after them. 24 For just like the lightning, when it flashes out of one part [fn]of the sky, shines to the other part [fn]of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day. 25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26 And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 [fn]It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building; 29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and [fn]brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 It will be [fn]just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to keep his [fn]life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left. 36 [[fn]Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left.”] 37 And answering they *said to Him, “Where, Lord?” And He said to them, “Where the body is, there also the [fn]vultures will be gathered.”

                Matthew 13 NASB
                1 As He was going out of the temple, one of His disciples *said to Him, “Teacher, behold [fn]what wonderful stones and [fn]what wonderful buildings!” 2 And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left upon another which will not be torn down.”
                3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and [fn]James and John and Andrew were questioning Him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the [fn]sign when all these things are going to be fulfilled?” 5 And Jesus began to say to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. 6 Many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He!’ and will mislead many. 7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be frightened; those things must take place; but that is not yet the end. 8 For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there will be earthquakes in various places; there will also be famines. These things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.
                9 “But [fn]be on your guard; for they will deliver you to the [fn]courts, and you will be flogged in the synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them. 10 The gospel must first be preached to all the nations. 11 When they [fn]arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit. 12 Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and [fn]have them put to death. 13 You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
                14 “But when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 15 The one who is on the housetop must not go down, or go in to get anything out of his house; 16 and the one who is in the field must not turn back to get his coat. 17 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 18 But pray that it may not happen in the winter. 19 For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will. 20 Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no [fn]life would have been saved; but for the sake of the [fn]elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days. 21 And then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is [fn]the Christ’; or, ‘Behold, He is there’; do not believe him; 22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show [fn]signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect. 23 But take heed; behold, I have told you everything in advance.

                24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, 25 AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in [fn]the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His [fn]elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.
                28 “Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, [fn]recognize that [fn]He is near, right at the [fn]door. 30 Truly I say to you, this [fn]generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. 32 But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
                33 “Take heed, keep on the alert; for you do not know when the appointed time [fn]will come. 34 It is like a man away on a journey, who upon leaving his house and [fn]putting his slaves in charge, assigning to each one his task, also commanded the doorkeeper to stay on the alert. 35 Therefore, be on the alert—for you do not know when the [fn]master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning— 36 in case he should come suddenly and find you asleep. 37 What I say to you I say to all, ‘Be on the alert!’”

                Matthew 25:31-46 NASB
                31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
                34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
                41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not [fn]take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


                Anyway, this is where I start when trying to piece it all together, rather than starting with Revelation.
                Comment>

                  #9
                  A person should NOT start with Revelation -- it's the last book given. And, as you're showing -- there are Lots of books that shed light on Revelation.

                  Maybe you're familiar with Precepts Bible studies -- some years back, they offered a two-year study on the book of Revelation. In that process -- the author explained the various views // Pre / Mid/ Post // Scriptural pros and cons of each view. It was put in graph form on the same page so that a person could compare them. A fascinating study.

                  The student was left with the perspective that - one way or another - the rapture Will happen -- the 2nd coming Will happen. The 1,000 yrs. Will take place.

                  Our 'job' is to be spiritually ready for when ever it Does happen. Am I a believer Now? Why or why Not? No one should ever try to persuade another person To accept Christ as their personal Savior. It is , after all, a Personal decision.

                  It is Also, The Most important decision of a person's life -- eternal consequences.

                  so -- what am 'I' doing Today? My attitude Now -- my thought life Now and my thoughts are my biggest problem - lots of times.
                  Comment>

                    #10
                    I appreciate your posts, but I am not starting with Revelation, I said I enjoy The book of Revelation, but I find it difficult to talk about Revelation with people who believe the Church has been Rapture up.

                    I believe the Church will remain until Christ returns. I then see the Church all through the book of Revelation, as those who believe in the pre tribulation will not.

                    That is the reasons I asked, What are the reasons to believe in a pre tribulation rapture
                    Comment>

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Guppy View Post
                      That is the reasons I asked, What are the reasons to believe in a pre tribulation rapture
                      Rev 1:19 Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things. [speaks of three time periods in the visions, which some take to be 1. Church Age from Jesus' Resurrection to the Rapture, which corresponds to the 'Lampstands'; 2. The The reign of the anti-Christ, the Great Tribulation, up to Jesus' start of his Millennial Reign, which is where we get the beasts and the martyrs crying out; 3. Jesus Millennial Reign, which may include the lifting of the veil from the eyes of the Jews.] I really DO NOT get into all this.

                      Matthew 13:20 Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no [fn]life would have been saved; but for the sake of the [fn]elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days. [This seems like it could be saying that the great tribulation will be cut short for the elect. That implies NOT a post-trib rapture.]

                      Luke 17:36 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left.
                      Matthew 25:31-33 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

                      How can Luke 17 and Matthew 25 both happen at the same event? If one is taken and one is left, then how are all gathered before him and sorted? What is the point of 'rapturing' the church after Jesus comes to end the suffering ... He wishes to rescue the Church from the Millennial Kingdom?
                      Amillenialism makes more sense of that paradox.

                      These are just a few quick thoughts from someone who HATES the topic of Eschatology, I suspect a quick google could turn up some well thought out arguments for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture (as well as some dross.)
                      It just doesn't seem like a completely unreasonable position (like say, Universalism, which can be refuted in under 60 seconds of Bible Study.)
                      Comment>

                        #12
                        Re --Post 10 -- the Church is very much still here. -- in the present time. In Revelations- the Church is probably 'taken up' right after the 7 churches in Asia are talked about. Their strengths and weaknesses. And Those chapters can Easily be applied to existing churches Now. A pastor examining his own congregation.
                        Comment>

                          #13
                          But why do you believe the Church will be taken up then. What is the scriptural proof that make you think this is true.
                          Comment>

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Guppy View Post
                            But why do you believe the Church will be taken up then. What is the scriptural proof that make you think this is true.
                            Just dropping a thread of interest from a member named Cornelius: The Rapture Refuted - Christforums

                            And another from Jerry Johnson: Rapture Theology: The Arrogance of the West - Christforums

                            God bless,
                            William
                            Comment>

                              #15
                              Re: Rapture Theology --the rapture of the Church will be All born-again believers not simply the U.S. believers. Yes, that Would be arrogance on the part of the Western world. There are believers both dead and alive all over this world. The dead will be raptured up first and then those who are alive at that time.

                              Now will look at the other thread.
                              Comment>
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