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Fastfredy0

Is Christ's Resurrection part of what saves us?

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I read the following recently in the commentary (Tom Constable) in the Net bible which I regard highly.  Before reading this I would have said one must believe in the "death and resurrection of Christ" to be saved (1 Cor. 15:4).  Now I am not so sure.  (Aside:  I believe in both :classic_smile:, just splitting hairs I suppose)

 

      "Though the resurrection is part of the gospel message, it is not part of the saving work of Christ on the cross. The resurrection is stated as proof of the efficacy of Christ’s death. Having accomplished redemption by His death, Jesus Christ was ‘raised because of our justification’ (Romans 4:25). The fact that Jesus Christ is alive is part of the Christian’s good news, but individuals are saved by His death, not by His resurrection."

 

Is the statement "individuals are saved by His death, not by His resurrection" true or false.

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1 hour ago, Fastfredy0 said:

I read the following recently in the commentary (Tom Constable) in the Net bible which I regard highly.  Before reading this I would have said one must believe in the "death and resurrection of Christ" to be saved (1 Cor. 15:4).  Now I am not so sure.  (Aside:  I believe in both :classic_smile:, just splitting hairs I suppose)

 

      "Though the resurrection is part of the gospel message, it is not part of the saving work of Christ on the cross. The resurrection is stated as proof of the efficacy of Christ’s death. Having accomplished redemption by His death, Jesus Christ was ‘raised because of our justification’ (Romans 4:25). The fact that Jesus Christ is alive is part of the Christian’s good news, but individuals are saved by His death, not by His resurrection."

 

Is the statement "individuals are saved by His death, not by His resurrection" true or false.

False.  The statement left to Jesus dying for sinners apart from His resurrection conveys that Jesus was a sinner and not our redeemer. The two parts are equally important and the second half of the statement should not be deemphasized as it is. "Individuals are saved by His death", death is not what saves us, death is the actual enemy and part of the divine curse for our sin in Adam. Christ defeated death and its claim to us. And while it is true that "Christ was ‘raised because of our justification’" Romans 4:25 we died in sin and are united with Christ in the Resurrection Romans 6:5.

 

1 hour ago, Fastfredy0 said:

Before reading this I would have said one must believe in the "death and resurrection of Christ" to be saved (1 Cor. 15:4).  Now I am not so sure.

Right, lets not emphasize 1 Corinthians 15:3 but deemphasize the next verse 1 Corinthians 15:4.

 

God bless,

William

 

 

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Yet if we keep reading in Corinthians, Paul make it clear that our life rests in Christ's resurrection rather than his death.

 

1 Cor. 15:12-21  "Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 

 

And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead."

 

I think this makes it clear about which act is our salvation.

 

Yours in Christ, Deade.     7062.gif

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I did a little more searching and found 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be  the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he gave us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

 

... so not sure what Constable is talking about and to be fair, he doesn't offer an explanation / scriptural foundation (would be interesting if he had)

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2 hours ago, Fastfredy0 said:

I did a little more searching and found 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be  the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he gave us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

 

... so not sure what Constable is talking about and to be fair, he doesn't offer an explanation / scriptural foundation (would be interesting if he had)

Perhaps "Constable" is emphasizing Jesus Christ's obedience to death as to how we receive righteousness (Justification)? I went back to reread what you quoted, and I'll emphasize what Constable said, "on the cross". If salvation was limited only to the work on the cross then is it completed? What exactly was meant when Jesus said, "It is finished"? Can the resurrection be separated from His death?

 

Consider that there were three crosses that stood stark against the sky on the hill of Calvary.  Three men died as anyone could of been crucified upon the cross and bared the curse of God on Adam (1st federal head) Romans 5:18 ~ Only Jesus died in righteousness (complete obedience) and was resurrected. Those united to Jesus Christ (2nd federal head) are raised to Glorification Romans 8:29-30.

 

God bless,

William

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7 minutes ago, William said:

Perhaps "Constable" is emphasizing Jesus Christ's obedience to death as to how we receive righteousness (Justification).

The point that struck me most (and I lost where I read it) was he stated (maybe this point wasn't Constable though my original quote was from Constable) that a person could have salvific faith and not believe in Christ's resurrection (granted, an improbable scenario).  That person would be doctrinally incorrect but still saved.  It was a fascinating statement.  

 

Again, splitting hairs.  Something academics and dummies like me like to contemplate.

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4 hours ago, deade said:

Yet if we keep reading in Corinthians, Paul make it clear that our life rests in Christ's resurrection rather than his death.

 

1 Cor. 15:12-21  "Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 

 

And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead."

 

I think this makes it clear about which act is our salvation.

 

Yours in Christ, Deade.     7062.gif

Don't forget his "ascension" either because it was apart of "faith" because rather than being here physically he ascended from earth and sent the holy spirit for comfort I can only imagine how tough that was on his disciples at first but it makes sense because remembering "doubting thomas" and what james says on faith I believe that his ascension was a "final test" because as many know it's very "easy" and doesn't require a lot of faith to trust someone who is "present on earth physically" but, trusting in someone who is not physically present on earth it leaves room for doubt but also "strong faith" for Jesus said "blessed are they who have not seen and believed".

I guess it's like saying "our sight" can lead us to take others for granted including Jesus and the scripture that fits appropriately with that is...

2 Corinthians 5:7(KJV)

(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

 

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18 minutes ago, Fastfredy0 said:

The point that struck me most (and I lost where I read it) was he stated (maybe this point wasn't Constable though my original quote was from Constable) that a person could have salvific faith and not believe in Christ's resurrection (granted, an improbable scenario).  That person would be doctrinally incorrect but still saved.  It was a fascinating statement.  

 

Again, splitting hairs.  Something academics and dummies like me like to contemplate.

Does Constable (if he stated that) want to open a can of worms on who is saved or who isn't saved? Can a person proclaim that Christ died for them but reject his resurrection? If we are going to discern from a person's personal verbal profession then I think we need to lay a foundation. We need to take what a person says per verbatim.

 

Lemme ask you, do you see Constable's statement problematic when contrasted with an OT saint (Job is probably the oldest book):

 

Job 19:25  For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth.
Job 19:26  And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God,
Job 19:27  whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. My heart faints within me!

 

Even the doubting Thomas (NT saint) professed the risen (living) Lord his Savior. 

 

God bless,

William

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9 minutes ago, William said:

do you see Constable's statement problematic

Yes, Constable's is problematic but that doesn't make it incorrect (i.e. God allowing evil is problematic).   Again, I don't know Constable's thinking I can't defend the statement.  I brought the idea up hoping someone would take Constable's side with corroborating ideas.  So far, not takers.  (LOL)  I tried 'googling' the idea and found nothing directly related.  I found something from Calvin to lead me to believe he did not side with Constable.

 

 

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Just now, Fastfredy0 said:

Yes, Constable's is problematic but that doesn't make it incorrect (i.e. God allowing evil is problematic).   Again, I don't know Constable's thinking I can't defend the statement.  I brought the idea up hoping someone would take Constable's side with corroborating ideas.  So far, not takers.  (LOL)  I tried 'googling' the idea and found nothing directly related.  I found something from Calvin to lead me to believe he did not side with Constable.

 

 

You could always write in to Constable asking him for clarification.

 

God bless,

William

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Elsewhere (cf. Acts 26:23) Constable affirms that the resurrection constitutes part of the "substance" of the Gospel.

 

 

"Here in substance is the Gospel that Paul preached and that believers ought always to proclaim, "that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures" ( 1 Corinthians 15:3-4)." [Note: The New Scofield . . ., p1204.]

Acts 26 Commentary - Expository Notes of Dr. Thomas Constable

 

I admit, I am baffled by the affirmation in one place and then the denial somewhere else.

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Well ... found this ...  http://www.canadianmennonite.org/stories/belief-jesus’-resurrection-necessary

 

"There’s a fascinating statement in the conclusion to Matthew’s account of the resurrected Jesus. It’s often skipped over because we Christians are so eager to get to the Great Commission. The risen Jesus has gathered with the eleven remaining disciples, and there in Matthew 28:17 are these words: “When they saw him, they worshipped him; but some doubted.”

Some doubted. Even after everything they had witnessed, even with the resurrected Jesus standing in front of them, “some doubted,” we are told. To me, this only makes sense as an expression of doubt that the Jesus standing before them was truly who he said he was, that Jesus had truly been resurrected from the dead. Doubt like this, even among the remaining apostles!

All this suggests that however vital the resurrection of Jesus is to Christian faith and life, there is room among followers of Jesus for diverse understandings of Jesus’ resurrection, and even for those who doubt whether it really happened at all."

 

...he goes on to say ...

 

"So, “Do Christians really need to believe in Jesus’ resurrection?”
Jesus’ resurrection is vital to Christian faith and life. It’s a pillar—I would say, the very foundation—of Christian theology and ethics and mission.

However, if you find yourself thinking of Jesus’ resurrection differently than others, or even if you’ve got your doubts about whether it really happened, there is plenty of room for you among the followers of Jesus—just like there was for those first disciples."

 

Disclaimer:  The views and opinions expressed in this article found above are those of the authors and do not

necessarily reflect the official policy or position of yours truly.  (*soft giggle*)

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17 hours ago, Fastfredy0 said:

All this suggests that however vital the resurrection of Jesus is to Christian faith and life, there is room among followers of Jesus for diverse understandings of Jesus’ resurrection, and even for those who doubt whether it really happened at all."

 

...he goes on to say ...

 

"So, “Do Christians really need to believe in Jesus’ resurrection?”
Jesus’ resurrection is vital to Christian faith and life. It’s a pillar—I would say, the very foundation—of Christian theology and ethics and mission.

However, if you find yourself thinking of Jesus’ resurrection differently than others, or even if you’ve got your doubts about whether it really happened, there is plenty of room for you among the followers of Jesus—just like there was for those first disciples." 

 

Just adding that the early church conveyed through the very first Creeds what was essential to the Christian faith which mentions Christ's resurrection: Nicene, Apostle's, and Athanasian. 

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3 hours ago, Joefizz said:

Don't forget his "ascension" either because it was apart of "faith" because rather than being here physically he ascended from earth and sent the holy spirit for comfort I can only imagine how tough that was on his disciples at first but it makes sense because remembering "doubting thomas" and what james says on faith I believe that his ascension was a "final test" because as many know it's very "easy" and doesn't require a lot of faith to trust someone who is "present on earth physically" but, trusting in someone who is not physically present on earth it leaves room for doubt but also "strong faith" for Jesus said "blessed are they who have not seen and believed".

I guess it's like saying "our sight" can lead us to take others for granted including Jesus and the scripture that fits appropriately with that is...

2 Corinthians 5:7(KJV)

(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

 

Good points about the ascension, Joefizz. In keeping with the OP there is a hugely significant element to both the resurrection and the ascension of Jesus that is just as absolutely awesomely integral to God's plan of salvation as was our Lord's crucifixion. Given the liberty, I really wax eloquent, lyrical, and emphatic about the divine affirmation inherent in these three events, the crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension of Christ.

 

Not only do they FULFILL prophecy (Psalm 68:18) but they IDENTIFY the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8) and PROVE its acceptability to God in the Person of His Son as the once-for-all sacrifice for sin (1John 2:2).

 

We really can see, the strength in these three. Happy Happy Happy Eternal Acceptance!!! 

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3 hours ago, Placable37 said:

Good points about the ascension, Joefizz. In keeping with the OP there is a hugely significant element to both the resurrection and the ascension of Jesus that is just as absolutely awesomely integral to God's plan of salvation as was our Lord's crucifixion. Given the liberty, I really wax eloquent, lyrical, and emphatic about the divine affirmation inherent in these three events, the crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension of Christ.

 

Not only do they FULFILL prophecy (Psalm 68:18) but they IDENTIFY the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8) and PROVE its acceptability to God in the Person of His Son as the once-for-all sacrifice for sin (1John 2:2).

 

We really can see, the strength in these three. Happy Happy Happy Eternal Acceptance!!! 

Thank you I felt ascension of Jesus was "important" because resurrection alone is nearly beyond our comprehension but "ascending"?

Talk about being thrown for a loop!

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Others are difficult to read as well.

 

 While doing a study on the worship of Christ I found the following from Lewis Sperry Chafer in his "Systematic Theology."

 

The worship of the Lord Jesus is acceptable:

"On His ascension to heaven, they worshiped Him (Luke 24:52), and the early Christians were designated as those who call upon the name of Christ (Acts 9:14; cf. 22:16; Rom. 10:13; 1 Cor. 1:2)" (volume 1, page 344).

 

The worship of the Lord Jesus is unacceptable:

"To pray to Christ would mean to abandon His mediation; it would not be praying through Him but rather to Him, thereby sacrificing the most vital feature of prayer under grace -prayer in His name" (volume 7, page 253).

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6 hours ago, Faber said:

Lewis Sperry Chafer in his "Systematic Theology."

I am a big fan of Chafer and have his 8 volume set  (4 books).  (Irrelevant Aside: He's about the only one that can make sense of Matthew from my biased point of view)

 

I found a commentator that thinks you can also pray directly to Jesus or the Spirit.  His reasoning follows:

·        Though there is a clear pattern of prayer directly to God the Father through the Son there are indications that prayer spoken directly to Jesus is also appropriate.  The fact that it was Jesus himself who appointed all of the other apostles, suggests that the prayer in Acts 1:24 is addressed to him.  The dying Stephen prays “lord Jesus, receive my spirit (Acts 7:59).  The prayer “Our Lord, come!” (1 Corinthians 16:22) is addressed to Jesus, as is the prayer in Revelation 22:20b.  And Paul also prayed to “the Lord” in 2 Corinthians 12:8 concerning his thorn in the flesh.  There is therefore clear enough scriptural warrant to encourage us to pray to the Son.

·        Though no prayers directly addressed to the Holy Spirit are recorded in the New Testament, there is nothing that would forbid such prayer, for the Holy Spirit, like the Father and Son, is fully God and is worthy of prayer and is powerful to answer our prayers.

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Hey FF,

 

 Thanks for your response.

 I was just wondering who the commentator was.

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1 hour ago, Faber said:

I was just wondering who the commentator was.

Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology ... it's on my kindle and says page 380 and part of the section title: "4. SHould We Pray to Jesus and the Holy Spirit" of Chapter 18 entitled "Prayer"

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20 minutes ago, Fastfredy0 said:

Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology ... it's on my kindle and says page 380 and part of the section title: "4. SHould We Pray to Jesus and the Holy Spirit" of Chapter 18 entitled "Prayer"

 

484421082_1WayneGrudem.jpg.14ac485325a4b69024d0785183d7c225.jpg

 

1735929103_2WayneGrudem.jpg.4b3bf9acbb0b78ad2a95b6b76409a41c.jpg

 

1785823538_3WayneGrudem.jpg.a6106a7cdfc8414bb426f093c21476b1.jpg

 

God bless,

William

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On 8/29/2018 at 7:01 AM, Faber said:

Others are difficult to read as well.

 

 While doing a study on the worship of Christ I found the following from Lewis Sperry Chafer in his "Systematic Theology."

 

The worship of the Lord Jesus is acceptable:

"On His ascension to heaven, they worshiped Him (Luke 24:52), and the early Christians were designated as those who call upon the name of Christ (Acts 9:14; cf. 22:16; Rom. 10:13; 1 Cor. 1:2)" (volume 1, page 344).

 

The worship of the Lord Jesus is unacceptable:

"To pray to Christ would mean to abandon His mediation; it would not be praying through Him but rather to Him, thereby sacrificing the most vital feature of prayer under grace -prayer in His name" (volume 7, page 253).

 

Blessing people in the name of the Triune God (2 Corinthians 13:14). 

J. Vernon McGee: He (Paul) says, "May all of the blessing of the Trinity be with you all." And that means all of you out there today.

(2 Corinthians 13:8-14; Time 4:24-4:32)

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/ttb/2-corinthians-13.html

 

 

And yet here it is not okay to pray to the Son and the Holy Spirit.

J. Vernon McGee: You’ll remember that the Lord Jesus told His apostles, “Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you” (John 16:23). He didn’t say we’re to ask the Holy Spirit, but we’re to ask the Father. When you pray to Christ or the Holy Spirit, you rob yourself of the Great Intercessor — that is, the Lord Jesus. So if you want to be right in your prayer life, pray to the Father and pray in the name of Christ. I believe that we should use the name of Jesus in prayer; I want the Father to know when I come to Him, I’m coming in Jesus’ name because I don’t have much standing up there but Jesus does. So I want to pray in the name of Jesus to the Father, and I trust that I pray down here in the power of the Spirit. Because we’re told that’s the way we are to pray. Paul says we have only two weapons down here that are for the offense of the believer, and one of them is “praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit” — not to the Spirit. 

https://www.oneplace.com/ministries/thru-the-bible-with-j-vernon-mcgee/read/articles/q--a-should-we-pray-to-the-holy-spirit-14126.html

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