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Talmid

Is Bible God's Word?

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There is borrowed material in Prophetic books (compare Isa. 2:2-4 with Micah 4:1-3, Isa. 52:7 with Nahum 1:15, Isa. 16:6,9,10-11 with Jer. 48:29,32-33,36. Isa. 11:9 with Hab. 2:14, Jer. 51:58 with Hab. 2:13, Obadiah 1:5 with Jer. 49:9, Jonah 4:2 with Joel 2:13, Amos 4:9 with Hag. 2:17)

In my view, Major & Minor Prophets are not revelation from God Almighty. Anonymous men wrote these books and declared them God’s Word. Jews also admit that these books were written by other men. Talmud, Baba Bathra 15a says:
“Hezekiah and his colleagues wrote Isaiah...The Men of the Great Assembly wrote Ezekiel, the Twelve Minor Prophets, Daniel...”

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30 minutes ago, Talmid said:

There is borrowed material in Prophetic books (compare Isa. 2:2-4 with Micah 4:1-3, Isa. 52:7 with Nahum 1:15, Isa. 16:6,9,10-11 with Jer. 48:29,32-33,36. Isa. 11:9 with Hab. 2:14, Jer. 51:58 with Hab. 2:13, Obadiah 1:5 with Jer. 49:9, Jonah 4:2 with Joel 2:13, Amos 4:9 with Hag. 2:17)

In my view, Major & Minor Prophets are not revelation from God Almighty. Anonymous men wrote these books and declared them God’s Word. Jews also admit that these books were written by other men. Talmud, Baba Bathra 15a says:
“Hezekiah and his colleagues wrote Isaiah...The Men of the Great Assembly wrote Ezekiel, the Twelve Minor Prophets, Daniel...”

A great thing about God's Word is its harmony. Prophets in agreement. image.png.d1301ef5e8debfad70d60278c7ebba69.png

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2 hours ago, Talmid said:

There is borrowed material in Prophetic books (compare Isa. 2:2-4 with Micah 4:1-3, Isa. 52:7 with Nahum 1:15, Isa. 16:6,9,10-11 with Jer. 48:29,32-33,36. Isa. 11:9 with Hab. 2:14, Jer. 51:58 with Hab. 2:13, Obadiah 1:5 with Jer. 49:9, Jonah 4:2 with Joel 2:13, Amos 4:9 with Hag. 2:17)

In my view, Major & Minor Prophets are not revelation from God Almighty. Anonymous men wrote these books and declared them God’s Word. Jews also admit that these books were written by other men. Talmud, Baba Bathra 15a says:
“Hezekiah and his colleagues wrote Isaiah...The Men of the Great Assembly wrote Ezekiel, the Twelve Minor Prophets, Daniel...”

Question, by who and when was the Talmud written?

 

God bless,

William

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@William

It doesn't matter when Talmud written. Jews admitted, that's important. There's no reliable proof that prophets wrote their books.

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10 minutes ago, Talmid said:

@William

It doesn't matter when Talmud written. Jews admitted, that's important. There's no reliable proof that prophets wrote their books.

You claimed anonymous men wrote these books and declared them God's word. I asked you who wrote the Talmud (source of your claim), and when it was written? Obviously, you think the Talmud is reliable proof of your claim. You stated that Jews admitted, and that's important. Are they the same Jews that wrote the books in question? Or are they centuries or millenniums later anonymous Jews? Are "Jews" an authority? If so what kind of authority? And are you pointing to believing Jews or unbelieving Jews? Or just anonymous Jews?

 

God bless,

William

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@William

If Talmud is not reliable then you must show the proof that prophets wrote their books. Simple is that!

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3 minutes ago, Talmid said:

@William

If Talmud is not reliable then you must show the proof that prophets wrote their books. Simple is that!

You're the one making the claim. The burden of proof is not upon my shoulders but yours. Don't think I'm going to do the work for you. You made a claim here on this board as your first post that anonymous men wrote the books in the bible. And you implied that the office of prophet is only based on what they declared of themselves as evidence.

 

As far as I am concerned you're an atheist troll.

 

Question, can you tell me what it means to be a prophet?

 

God bless,

William

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Posted (edited)

@William

If I write my book, I'll use the word "I says" Not like Biblical Prophets who said "Jeremiah Said..Amos Said". It's clear that these were written by other men.


Also, If Bible is God's Word, it should have only words of Lord. No human interpolations are required in it.

Edited by Talmid
grammer mistake

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44 minutes ago, Talmid said:

@William

If I write my book, I'll use the word "I says" Not like Biblical Prophets who said "Jeremiah Said..Amos Said". It's clear that these were written by other men.


Also, If Bible is God's Word, it should have only words of Lord. No human interpolations is required in it.

So your standard for testing a prophet or the inspiration the prophet is under solely is based on what you would do?

 

God bless,

William

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@William

I can show you some contradictions in Prophetic books:

(1) Zedekiah was to die in peace. (Jer. 34:4-5) with Zedekaih's sons are slain before his eyes, his eyes are then put out, he is bound in fetters, taken to Babylon and left in prison to die. (Jer. 52:10-11)

(2) Tyre will be destroyed and will never be found again. (Eze. 26:15-21) but Nebuchadnezzar failed to capture or destroy Tyre. It is still inhabited.

(3) Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap. (Isa. 17:1) but Damascus is still inhabited today.

(4) Five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan. (Isa. 19:18) but Canaanite language has never been spoken in Egypt, and is now an extinct.

(5) Egypt will become utterly waste and desolate, from the tower of Syene even unto the border of Ethiopia. (Eze. 29:10-11) but Never in its long history has Egypt ever been uninhabited for 40 years.

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8 minutes ago, Talmid said:

@William

I can show you some contradictions in Prophetic books:

(1) Zedekiah was to die in peace. (Jer. 34:4-5) with Zedekaih's sons are slain before his eyes, his eyes are then put out, he is bound in fetters, taken to Babylon and left in prison to die. (Jer. 52:10-11)

(2) Tyre will be destroyed and will never be found again. (Eze. 26:15-21) but Nebuchadnezzar failed to capture or destroy Tyre. It is still inhabited.

(3) Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap. (Isa. 17:1) but Damascus is still inhabited today.

(4) Five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan. (Isa. 19:18) but Canaanite language has never been spoken in Egypt, and is now an extinct.

(5) Egypt will become utterly waste and desolate, from the tower of Syene even unto the border of Ethiopia. (Eze. 29:10-11) but Never in its long history has Egypt ever been uninhabited for 40 years.

And now you're going to jump to all those atheist contradiction site listings?

 

Really?

 

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7 hours ago, Talmid said:

There is borrowed material in Prophetic books

So What?  Is there some rule some where which states the prophets could not use material found in other prophets?  Thus your point is both moot and irrelevant.

 

7 hours ago, Talmid said:

In my view, Major & Minor Prophets are not revelation from God Almighty.

Again, so what?  Personal opinions are not proof or evidence.  If you want to support your claim, cite a rule which states prophets could not use material found in other prophets.  Hint!  There isn't one.

 

7 hours ago, Talmid said:

Jews also admit that these books were written by other men. Talmud, Baba Bathra 15a

(1) What do you mean by "Jew"?  All Jews, some Jews, only the Jews who read the Babylonian Talmud?  Which?  The very first word of your claim shows your bias and complete lack of knowledge on this topic.

 

(2) Since you did not define the word I will assume you mean Jews who read and accept the Babylonian Talmud.  The problem with that claim is one must assume (just as you have) the information is correct. I find no reason to believe that and you shouldn't either.  That is just poor reasoning and research skills on your part.

 

Well, all those problems comes to naught when one comes to the information with something other than bias, poor reasoning and research skills

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On 6/27/2018 at 3:34 AM, Talmid said:

@William

It doesn't matter when Talmud written. Jews admitted, that's important. There's no reliable proof that prophets wrote their books.

What?  Another example of poor reasoning and research skills.  It matters because if the source is late, written long after the events, there is good reason to doubt it claims.  You really need to get educated on this topic before you start throwing around silly claims.

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11 hours ago, Talmid said:

@William

If Talmud is not reliable then you must show the proof that prophets wrote their books. Simple is that!

Who are you Britney Spears?  "Oops! YOU did it again.  You continually make the same blunders over and over.  @William pointed out your error so there is no need for me to do the same.

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On 6/27/2018 at 4:10 AM, Talmid said:

@William

If I write my book, I'll use the word "I says" Not like Biblical Prophets who said "Jeremiah Said..Amos Said". It's clear that these were written by other men.


Also, If Bible is God's Word, it should have only words of Lord. No human interpolations are required in it.

There you go again allowing personal option rather logic and evidence to guide you.  I take it you have never heard of an author writing in the 3rd person?  That never happens.

 

Quote

Also, If Bible is God's Word, it should have only words of Lord. No human interpolations are required in it.

You are long on the claims but short on evidence.  Again, that is your opinion.  I see no evidence your opinion ought to be accepted.  You are trying to require artificial standards for which you have no good reason.  You just make them up as you go because that is what you want.

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3 hours ago, Talmid said:

@William

I can show you some contradictions in Prophetic books...

LOL  Give your track record so far I doubt you could show anyone anything.  What you mean to say is you can show us what you THINK are contradiction but in reality are not.  Given the above example of your skill you ought to find another line of work.

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@Talmid just one more point.  When the Talmud Baba Bathra 15a states "Hezekiah and his colleagues" or "the Men of the Great Assembly wrote" it does not mean they composed the books.  It means they wrote them down (i.e. recorded what the prophets said).  That is not odd or strange.  Can you say Jesus and the Gospels.

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Contrary to the alleged opinions of a few Medieval Jews, yes, the Bible is God's Word.  We answer to Jesus Christ, God's only Begotten Son, the Head of the Church, not to some " assembly" of people who adhere to an invalidated religion.

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Jesus is the King of Endless Ages, His Word is Eternal and True. Jesus is the Lord of Glory, all else is under His feet.

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11 hours ago, Talmid said:

@William

I can show you some contradictions in Prophetic books:

(1) Zedekiah was to die in peace. (Jer. 34:4-5) with Zedekaih's sons are slain before his eyes, his eyes are then put out, he is bound in fetters, taken to Babylon and left in prison to die. (Jer. 52:10-11)

(2) Tyre will be destroyed and will never be found again. (Eze. 26:15-21) but Nebuchadnezzar failed to capture or destroy Tyre. It is still inhabited.

(3) Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap. (Isa. 17:1) but Damascus is still inhabited today.

(4) Five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan. (Isa. 19:18) but Canaanite language has never been spoken in Egypt, and is now an extinct.

(5) Egypt will become utterly waste and desolate, from the tower of Syene even unto the border of Ethiopia. (Eze. 29:10-11) but Never in its long history has Egypt ever been uninhabited for 40 years.

 

Can someone respond to these claims?  I responded on my own before on atheists sites to some of them but it would be nice to see other perspectives as well.

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So Zedekiah died in prison.  Where does it say that he died in agony?  Cannot a person in prison die peacefully?  Of course they can and do. 

 

The modern city of Tyre in Lebanon today, is not the same city of Tyre mentioned in Ezekiel. Alexander the Great removed every trace of the ancient city’s ruins to build his causeway, so Tyre’s original location is still a matter of debate. https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/where-is-tyre/

 

Speaking of Alexander the Great, what does he have in common with Winnie the Pooh?  They both have the same middle name. 🙂

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Posted (edited)
On 6/27/2018 at 5:53 AM, Talmid said:

I can show you some contradictions in Prophetic books:
(4) Five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan. (Isa. 19:18) but Canaanite language has never been spoken in Egypt, and is now an extinct.

[Isaiah 19:18 NIV] In that day five cities in Egypt will speak the language of Canaan and swear allegiance to the LORD Almighty. One of them will be called the City of the Sun.

 

1. The prophecy is both Present and Future.

2. Hebrew is not extinct.

3. Ultimately it is the "lips" of the worship of the one true God that will be spoken (and Coptic Christians in Egypt now speak).

 

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

(18) In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan.—The prophecy is, it will be noticed, parallel to that affecting Ethiopia in Isaiah 18:7, and at least expresses the yearnings of the prophet’s heart after the conversion of Egypt to the worship of Jehovah. Like the previous prediction, it connects itself with Psalms 87, as recording the admission of proselytes as from other countries, so also from Rahab (i.e., Egypt). The “five cities” stand either as a certain number for an uncertain (Isaiah 30:17; Isaiah 17:6; Leviticus 26:8; 1Corinthians 14:19), or possibly as the actual number of the chief or royal cities of Egypt. The “language of Canaan” is Hebrew, and the prediction is that this will become the speech of the worshippers of Jehovah in the Egyptian cities. There is to be one universal speech for the universal Church of the true Israel.

 

Benson Commentary

Isaiah 19:18. In that day — After that time, as this phrase is often used; that is, in the times of the gospel. This latter part of the prophecy contains an account of the salutary benefits which God would bestow on Egypt after the above-mentioned calamities. “Isaiah, to whom God had most clearly revealed the mystery of the calling of the Gentiles to the grace of Christ, everywhere takes occasion to speak of it; and frequently finishes his prophecies concerning the nations with a promise of the spiritual blessings designed for them by God; but he does this nowhere more explicitly than in the present passage;” in which one cannot but observe with what ease he passes from the one argument to the other. He had said that some of the Egyptians, when under these calamities, should be afraid of the hand of the Lord of hosts, which he should shake over Egypt, and should fear, because of his counsel which he had determined against it; and he now teaches, that this servile fear and dread should hereafter be turned into a religious fear, with this effect, that five cities in the land of Egypt, that is, that many of their chief cities, a certain number being put for an uncertain, should speak the language of Canaan — That is, should profess the Jewish religion, or agree with the Jews in their worship of one living and true God. Thus, I will turn to the people a pure language, (Zephaniah 3:9,) signifies, I will restore to the people a pure religion; or, I will change and purify their conversation, their hearts and lips, that they may call upon the name of the Lord, to serve him with one consent. And shall swear to the Lord of hosts — Swearing to the Lord implies the dedication and yielding up of a person or thing to the Lord, by a solemn vow or covenant, as appears from 2 Chronicles 15:14; Psalm 132:2; Isaiah 45:23-24.

 

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

19:18-25 The words, In that day, do not always refer to the passage just before. At a time which was to come, the Egyptians shall speak the holy language, the Scripture language; not only understand it, but use it. Converting grace, by changing the heart, changes the language; for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. So many Jews shall come to Egypt, that they shall soon fill five cities. Where the sun was worshipped, a place infamous for idolatry, even there shall be a wonderful reformation. Christ, the great Altar, who sanctifies every gift, shall be owned, and the gospel sacrifices of prayer and praise shall be offered up. Let the broken-hearted and afflicted, whom the Lord has wounded, and thus taught to return to, and call upon him, take courage; for He will heal their souls, and turn their sorrowing supplications into joyful praises. The Gentile nations shall not only unite with each other in the gospel fold under Christ, the great Shepherd, but they shall all be united with the Jews. They shall be owned together by him; they shall all share in one and the same blessing. Meeting at the same throne of grace, and serving with each other in the same business of religion, should end all disputes, and unite the hearts of believers to each other in holy love.

 

Barnes' Notes on the Bible

In that day - The word 'day' is used in Scripture in a large signification, "as including the whole period under consideration," or the whole time that is embraced in the scope of a prophecy. In this chapter it is used in this sense; and evidently means that the event here foretold would take place "somewhere" in the period that is embraced in the design of the prophecy. That is, the event recorded in this verse would occur in the series of events that the prophet saw respecting Egypt (see Isaiah 4:1). The sense is, that somewhere in the general time here designated Isaiah 19:4-17, the event here described would take place. There would be an extensive fear of Yahweh, and an extensive embracing of the true religion, in the land of Egypt.

Shall five cities - The number 'five' here is evidently used to denote an "indefinite" number, in the same way as 'seven' is often used in the Scriptures (see Leviticus 26:8). It means, that several cities in Egypt would use that language, one of which only is specified.

The language of Canaan - Margin, 'Lip of Canaan.' So the Hebrew; but the word often means 'language.' The language of Canaan evidently means the "Hebrew" language; and it is called 'the language of Canaan' either because it was spoken by the original inhabitants of the land of Canaan, or more probably because it was used by the Hebrews who occupied Canaan as the promised land; and then it will mean the language spoken in the land of Canaan. The phrase used here is employed probably to denote that they would be converted to the Jewish religion; or that the religion of the Jews would flourish there. A similar expression, to denote conversion to the true God, occurs in Zephaniah 3:9 : 'For there I will turn to the people a pure language, that they may call upon the name of the Lord, to serve him with one consent.'

 

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

18-22. In that day, &c.—Suffering shall lead to repentance. Struck with "terror" and "afraid" (Isa 19:17) because of Jehovah's judgments, Egypt shall be converted to Him: nay, even Assyria shall join in serving Him; so that Israel, Assyria, and Egypt, once mutual foes, shall be bound together by the tie of a common faith as one people. So a similar issue from other prophecies (Isa 18:7; 23:18).

five cities—that is, several cities, as in Isa 17:6; 30:17; Ge 43:34; Le 26:8. Rather, five definite cities of Lower Egypt (Isa 19:11, 13; 30:4), which had close intercourse with the neighboring Jewish cities [Maurer]; some say, Heliopolis, Leontopolis (else Diospolis), Migdol, Daphne (Tahpanes), and Memphis.

language of Canaan—that is, of the Hebrews in Canaan, the language of revelation; figuratively for, They shall embrace the Jewish religion: so "a pure language" and conversion to God are connected in Zep 3:9; as also the first confounding and multiplication of languages was the punishment of the making of gods at Babel, other than the One God. Pentecost (Ac 2:4) was the counterpart of Babel: the separation of nations is not to hinder the unity of faith; the full realization of this is yet future (Zec 14:9; Joh 17:21). The next clause, "swear to the Lord of Hosts," agrees with this view; that is, bind themselves to Him by solemn covenant (Isa 45:23; 65:16; De 6:13).

 

Matthew Poole's Commentary

In that day; after that time, as this phrase is used, Isaiah 4:2 18:7, and oft elsewhere. In the times of the gospel, which are oft noted in the prophets by that very expression.

Five cities; a considerable number of their chief cities, a certain number being put for an uncertain.

Speak the language of Canaan; profess the Jewish religion, agree with them in the same mind; which is fitly signified by speaking the same language, because out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. Thus the changing and purifying of a people’s lips is used to signify the change of their hearts and lives, Zephaniah 3:9; and praising God with one mouth, to note their unity or consent in the faith, Romans 15:6.

Edited by atpollard

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I think you are on a very dangerous journey to disprove the Bible is not authentically totally and completely The Inspired very Word of God, as it was originally given without errors. When you begin to think one part of the Holy Scripture is possibly borrowed or in error, where does it end. Then what parts are true? Was Jesus really born to the virgin Mary, conceived by the Holy Spirit?  Many have ended up shipwrecking their faith by intentionally trying to disprove the Bible is make up of myths and borrowed material.

 

Most all so sacred books from world religions have a flood recorded in them. Now does that mean that Moses took material from those other books? No the flood happened, its a fact. 

 

I beg to ask the question what is your goal?I

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On 6/27/2018 at 6:26 PM, Origen said:

Who are you Britney Spears?  "Oops! YOU did it again.  You continually make the same blunders over and over.  @William pointed out your error so there is no need for me to do the same.

Rather telling him evidences of authenticity you gave baseless comments.

 

What were the names of "Honest Jews" who recorded Prophetic words? 

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On 7/1/2018 at 3:48 AM, Matt1 said:

Rather telling him evidences of authenticity you gave baseless comments.

lol  If it were baseless as you claim, then you would have little problem refuting the evidence.  Yet you have still not done that.  You simply refuse to even try.  That tells me and everyone here all we need to know about you and your claims.

 

On 7/1/2018 at 3:48 AM, Matt1 said:

What were the names of "Honest Jews" who recorded Prophetic words? 

I see that you are still have problems with basic reasoning skills.  You made certain claims, thus it is your burden to support those claims which you have failed to do.  So your question is moot.   All I needed to do is disprove your claims which I and the others posters in this thread have done quite easily.

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