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zeland

A strange question “Is there any sin in heaven”?

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Posted (edited)

A strange question “Is there any sin in heaven”?

 

Some time ago I was listening to a religious discussion on TV, and the question, “Is there any sin in heaven”, was asked. Unfortunately, I did not hear the end of the discussion. I thought, however, this was a rather strange question, one that I had never thought about. If we were to ask the average Christian this question I suppose he would say “No”, and I believe he would be correct, based on what the scriptures say. According to the Bible, there are no imperfections of any kind in heaven, “And there shall not enter into it anything defiled” (Revelation 21:27). In other words, no imperfections in heaven, nothing impure, unclean, etc. Likewise in Habakkuk 1:13 – “Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate iniquity” Also, in Matthew 5:48 we read – “Be ye perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

 

Suppose I died tomorrow, I feel that I am justified in the Lord’s sight, and should go to heaven, but am I in a state of absolute moral perfection? Am I absolutely free from any attachment to sin or worldly pleasures? Again if we ask our Christian friend (or ourselves for that matter) this same question: are any of us in the state of absolute moral perfection? I think that most people would hesitate to say yes. To my way of thinking, saying yes would certainly, considering our fallen human nature, be most presumptuous on our part. Even if we were bold enough to make such a statement, can we really be sure we are perfect in God’s sight?

 

St. Paul gives us the answer – he says no! “…indeed, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me justified. It is the Lord who judges me.  Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God” (1 Corinthians 4:3-5). So what happens then when we die then if our soul is not in a state of 100% absolute moral perfection? If we are not yet perfect, but we must be perfect to enter heaven – what happens?

 

Edited by zeland

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Nobody is in heaven yet: John 3:13: "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." They are asleep.

Acts 2:29: 
"Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."

Acts 2:34, 35: "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool." 

All the OT patriarchs are mentioned in Heb.11 and none of them have received their reward yet. Heb. 12 is just a reference to Mount Zion which is new Jerusalem, yet future. 

 

Heb. 11:40: "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect." New Jerusalem is being prepared and is coming to earth with the "many mansions" that the father is preparing.

 

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Posted (edited)

Dear Deade,

 

Thanks for your reply. If no one is in heaven (and I do not dispute your claim), then where are the souls of the of those who have died. They are not in heaven, they are not in hell, and they are not alive on earth, so where are they. Also, your scriptures do not answer the basic question - if our soul is not in a state of 100% absolute moral perfection, and therefore we are not yet perfect, but we must be perfect to enter heaven – what happens? how do we become perfect?

Edited by zeland
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3 hours ago, zeland said:

Dear Deade,

 

Thanks for your reply. If no one is in heaven (and I do not dispute your claim), then where are the souls of the of those who have died. They are not in heaven, they are not in hell, and they are not alive on earth, so where are they. Also, your scriptures do not answer the basic question - if our soul is not in a state of 100% absolute moral perfection, and therefore we are not yet perfect, but we must be perfect to enter heaven – what happens? how do we become perfect?

They get to perfection upon being resurrected as spirits. I believe the dead are asleep. Paul may have said: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. OK, to close your eyes at night: presto - it is morning. It is the same principal.

 

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7 hours ago, deade said:

They get to perfection upon being resurrected as spirits. I believe the dead are asleep. Paul may have said: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. OK, to close your eyes at night: presto - it is morning. It is the same principal.

Hi Deade, ours is a bodily resurrection, and I believe "resurrection" always involves our physical bodies, not simply our souls/spirits which are reunited with our bodies at that time. That said, I'd also like make a couple of other points/ask a couple of questions about the passages below.

 

2 Corinthians 5
          1      We know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
          2      For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
          3      inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
          4      For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.
          5      Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.
          6      Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord
          7      for we walk by faith, not by sight—
          8      we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
          9      Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
          10      For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

 

Philippians 1
          21      To me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
          22      But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
          23      But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
          24      yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
          25      Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith,
          26      so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.


I understand what you are saying above, but these passages beg several questions in light of what you believe, do they not? For instance, what does St. Paul mean when he speaks of being "absent from the body" when we are dead? In what way are "we" absent from our bodies in death?

 

And if we are asleep and/or as lifeless as our bodies are in death (at least in essence), how can we "have as our ambition ... to be pleasing to Him"? If we are unconscious/asleep/dead, how can we have an "ambition" (or 'do' anything else for that matter)?

 

As for the Philippians passage, how can St. Paul possibly say that it is "very much better" to die and depart from this world, RATHER than living on here in continued service to God and to His church, if he believed that dying amounted to nothing more than a lifeless non-existence in the ground (along with his body) until Christ's return??

 

Thanks!

 

--David

 

Revelation 6
9      When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10      and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”


 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, zeland said:

A strange question “Is there any sin in heaven”?

Hi zeland, This is a frequently asked question, understandably considering that Satan rebelled while in heaven, and Revelation 12:7 speaks of a war in heaven.

 

The answer is that when the former things are passed away, verse 4 below, what is in place will be perfect, including God's people who will not have the slightest inclination, provocation, or capacity to sin, but will be truly in worship and adoration of God. 

Revelation 21:1-4
(1)  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
(2)  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
(3)  And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
(4)  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

Edited by Placable37
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3 hours ago, deade said:

They get to perfection upon being resurrected as spirits. I believe the dead are asleep. Paul may have said: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. OK, to close your eyes at night: presto - it is morning. It is the same principal.

Stephen's spirit went to heaven, his body remained lifeless, in a state euphemistically referred to as sleep.

Acts 7:55-60
(55)  But he,[Stephen] being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
(56)  And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

(57)  Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
(58)  And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
(59)  And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
(60)  And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

 

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53 minutes ago, Placable37 said:

Stephen's spirit went to heaven, his body remained lifeless, in a state euphemistically referred to as sleep.

Acts 7:55-60
(55)  But he,[Stephen] being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
(56)  And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

(57)  Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
(58)  And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
(59)  And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
(60)  And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

 

Simply a vision!

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6 minutes ago, deade said:

Simply a vision!

Wouldn't it be described as a vision if that were the case?

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I am sorry I try to respond to David and Placable37's posts and it jumps all over then throws me out completely. Twice I have lost everything. I shall try to for a response offline and paste it in. It just almost did it again.

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Everyone says that we will have glorified bodies, after our resurrection. I don't agree, I think we will be spirit.

I know what a spiritual body is: it is spirit. Of course, Christ ascended and came back in a physical body. He also generated physical bodies for Himself and two angels (cherubim?) in the Plains of Mamre to talk to Abraham. He is God, He can do anything he wants. Spirits can walk through walls and doors. God does not need a body.

 

John said: John 4:24: “God is a spirit: and they that worship Him must  worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

2 Cor. 3:17,18: “Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”

 

In 1 John 3:2: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is." Sounds like we will be spirits too. God could be among us and invisible like His angels are. He could make Himself visible and has done so in the past.

 

Everything made in our universe was made by the unseen (spirits).  

Hebrews 11:3: “Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.”     

 

1 Timothy 1:17: “ Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.”   

 

David’s Question 1:

“I understand what you are saying above, but these passages beg several questions in light of what you believe, do they not? For instance, what does St. Paul mean when he speaks of being "absent from the body" when we are dead? In what way are "we" absent from our bodies in death?”

 

In Paul’s consciousness as soon as he dies it is the Day of the Lord. Paul may have said: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. OK, to close your eyes at night: presto - it is morning. It is the same principal.

 

David’s Question 2:

“And if we are asleep and/or as lifeless as our bodies are in death (at least in essence), how can we "have as our ambition ... to be pleasing to Him"? If we are unconscious/asleep/dead, how can we have an "ambition" (or 'do' anything else for that matter)?”

 

Our ambitions are also asleep and preserved. Exactly how God does this I do not know. Acts 7 and 8 says nothing other than a vision of Stephen and a statement from him for God to receive his spirit. The Father does preserve the spirits but they are not conscience. Here are some references to the unconscious saints.

 

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6: “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.” 

 

Psalms 6:5: “For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?”

 

Psalms 30:9: “What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?”

 

Psalms 115:17: “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.”

 

Isaiah 38:18: “For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.”   

 

Psalms 88:10-12: “Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

 

Psalms 115:17: “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.”

 

David’s Question 3:

“As for the Philippians passage, how can St. Paul possibly say that it is "very much better" to die and depart from this world, RATHER than living on here in continued service to God and to His church, if he believed that dying amounted to nothing more than a lifeless non-existence in the ground (along with his body) until Christ's return??”

 

Again, it is like receiving your reward and the Day of the Lord in his consciousness. It would seem he would rather live than sleep, but I would have to ask him.

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1 hour ago, deade said:

Everyone says that we will have glorified bodies, after our resurrection. I don't agree, I think we will be spirit.

Dear Brother Deade. Greetings in the blessed name of Jesus.

I have a problem believing we will have no bodies in heaven, and remain spirit for the following reasons.

 

2Co 5:6  Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2Co 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

To me, this indicates that when we die physically, our spirit is caught up to be with God.

 

John saw Jesus’ angel in Rev 19:10, a redeemed saint, and bowed to him; possibly changed so much into, or conformed into the image of Christ (Rom 8:9) that John thought it was Jesus? Jesus has a body in heaven.

2Co 12:2  I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

2Co 12:3  And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

 

When John was caught into heaven, he was in spirit on the Day of the Lord, or the Lord’s Day. His body remained in Patmos as far as I can tell.

 

When we die, where does our bodies remain: in the grave? Then I must ask what is caught up to be with God at the rapture, if our spirit is already with Him? What of those that are alive at Jesus coming for them in the air? are their bodies left behind?

 

Thanks.

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3 hours ago, deade said:

David’s Question 3:

“As for the Philippians passage, how can St. Paul possibly say that it is "very much better" to die and depart from this world, RATHER than living on here in continued service to God and to His church, if he believed that dying amounted to nothing more than a lifeless non-existence in the ground (along with his body) until Christ's return??”

 

Again, it is like receiving your reward and the Day of the Lord in his consciousness. It would seem he would rather live than sleep, but I would have to ask him.

Hi Deade, let's start from the bottom of your post and move up. The Apostle, given his druthers, would have far preferred to have departed and been with Christ, but he felt that it more important to continue on here in the service of both God and the saints instead (he did, after all, have more people to teach, churches to visit, and books of the Bible to write :classic_smile:).

 

According to you however, his choices boiled down to these:

 

1. Die immediately and enter into an unconscious/lifeless state until finally "waking up" in the presence of Christ thousands of years later and feeling as if no time had passed -or-
2. Live on a bit longer here and continue the very important work that needs to be done first, then die 'after' the work is completed and "wake up" with Christ thousands of years later feeling as if no time had passed.

 

If these are indeed the choices that St. Paul is truly describing as his two possibilities, in what way could he possibly think that choice #1 is "very much better" than choice #2? 

 

St. Paul said "to live is Christ, and to die is gain" .. Phil 1:26. How could he possibly say that, IOW, what "gain" could there possibly be in dying (rather than living on in fruitful service here instead), if dying means nothing more than entering into a state of non-existence until Christ returns?

 

Thanks!

 

--David

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2 hours ago, deade said:

Everyone says that we will have glorified bodies, after our resurrection. I don't agree, I think we will be spirit.
I know what a spiritual body is: it is spirit. Of course, Christ ascended and came back in a physical body.

What! Christ has ascended but He has not yet returned!

I cannot heart you on this.

Did you mean resurrected?

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Posted (edited)

What about the war in heaven?  Iniquity was found in the devil and his followers were cast out.

Edited by CDF47
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13 hours ago, zeland said:

... your scriptures do not answer the basic question - if our soul is not in a state of 100% absolute moral perfection, and therefore we are not yet perfect, but we must be perfect to enter heaven – what happens? how do we become perfect?

Hi Zeland, that's an interesting question! How can someone who is guilty of committing a crime become innocent again? The answer is, they can't (obviously). They can perhaps pay a debt of some sort or another to atone for their crime, but they will never again be "innocent".

 

The same thing can be said about our life before God because once we sin, we are no longer innocent OR righteous (and we can never make ourselves that way again), because we've become transgressors of the law .. cf James 2:10-11. As such, the best status we can hope for is "forgiven", isn't it? (granted, that is a 'very' good status :classic_smile:)

 

The really cool thing is, Jesus takes care of all of this for us (because what has to happen is something that we could 'never' do for ourselves). Our sins become His sins, and His righteousness, becomes our righteousness (and in doing so, we become far more than simply "righteous", rather, we become the very "righteousness of God").
 

2 Corinthians 5
21      He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

 

So Jesus is our only innocence, our only righteousness, and the only atonement for our sins.

 

This is going to come up in this discussion eventually, so I might as well go ahead and ask it now. Purgatory, according to the RCC, is for saints who are on their way to Heaven because 1. all of their "mortal" sins have been forgiven, but 2. at least some of their "venial" sins haven't.

 

My first question is, what is a venial sin? *(please consider the following before you answer)* 

 

Our first parents' sin not only resulted in their own deaths (both spiritually and, eventually, physically), it also caused the fall and the deaths of their entire progeny as well (the whole of mankind), and the decay and/or death of everything else in Creation for that matter. So if any sin could 'ever' be described as "MORTAL" ... that was it, yes :RpS_scared:

 

But what was "that" sin? Let's see: Our progenitors picked an apple from their own tree in their own garden and took a bite out of it. Now granted, God told them not to do it, but then again, that's true of ANY sin we commit, from murder, to idolatry, to dissing our parents, to telling a white lie, or even something as little as taking a single piece of chewing gum from a friend's pack w/o their knowledge and consent.  

 

So my second question is this then, if simply taking a bite out of an apple can be a "mortal" sin, what sin could possibly be described as "venial" then??  ALL of our sins need to be atoned for by Christ if we ever want to see life.The good news is, they will be, because that's exactly what God has graciously promised to do for us who are in Christ .. cf 1 John 1:9.

 

1 John 1

9      If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


--David

 

 

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55 minutes ago, CDF47 said:

What about the war in heaven?  Iniquity was found in the devil and his followers were cast out.

I dealt with this in an earlier post on this thread. You missed it, CDF47.

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9 hours ago, David Lee said:

St. Paul said "to live is Christ, and to die is gain" .. Phil 1:26. How could he possibly say that, IOW, what "gain" could there possibly be in dying (rather than living on in fruitful service here instead), if dying means nothing more than entering into a state of non-existence until Christ returns?

Well David, I don't know much about you: your age or health status. I am old and I have to manage pain daily, sometimes it seems to take up all my effort just for daily tasks. When the Lord calls me home it will be a relief. But He has me still doing things, so maybe Paul could have had this mindset. He spoke of a thorn in the flesh.

 

7056.gif

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8 hours ago, Placable37 said:

What! Christ has ascended but He has not yet returned!

I cannot heart you on this.

Did you mean resurrected?

Maybe you aren't aware that there were two ascensions. One was almost immediately after He was resurrected, the other was 40 days after from the Mt. of Olives.

 

John 20:16-18: “Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.”

John 20:19“Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.”

 

Later that same day He appeared to His disciples and they could touch Him. That is when He told Thomas to touch His wounds and then He ate with them.

 

7022.gif

 

 

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11 hours ago, David Lee said:

Hi Zeland, that's an interesting question! How can someone who is guilty of committing a crime become innocent again? The answer is, they can't (obviously). They can perhaps pay a debt of some sort or another to atone for their crime, but they will never again be "innocent".

 

The same thing can be said about our life before God because once we sin, we are no longer innocent OR righteous (and we can never make ourselves that way again), because we've become transgressors of the law .. cf James 2:10-11. As such, the best status we can hope for is "forgiven", isn't it? (granted, that is a 'very' good status :classic_smile:)

 

The really cool thing is, Jesus takes care of all of this for us (because what has to happen is something that we could 'never' do for ourselves). Our sins become His sins, and His righteousness, becomes our righteousness (and in doing so, we become far more than simply "righteous", rather, we become the very "righteousness of God").
 

2 Corinthians 5
21      He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

 

So Jesus is our only innocence, our only righteousness, and the only atonement for our sins.

 

This is going to come up in this discussion eventually, so I might as well go ahead and ask it now. Purgatory, according to the RCC, is for saints who are on their way to Heaven because 1. all of their "mortal" sins have been forgiven, but 2. at least some of their "venial" sins haven't.

 

My first question is, what is a venial sin? *(please consider the following before you answer)* 

 

Our first parents' sin not only resulted in their own deaths (both spiritually and, eventually, physically), it also caused the fall and the deaths of their entire progeny as well (the whole of mankind), and the decay and/or death of everything else in Creation for that matter. So if any sin could 'ever' be described as "MORTAL" ... that was it, yes :RpS_scared:

 

But what was "that" sin? Let's see: Our progenitors picked an apple from their own tree in their own garden and took a bite out of it. Now granted, God told them not to do it, but then again, that's true of ANY sin we commit, from murder, to idolatry, to dissing our parents, to telling a white lie, or even something as little as taking a single piece of chewing gum from a friend's pack w/o their knowledge and consent.  

 

So my second question is this then, if simply taking a bite out of an apple can be a "mortal" sin, what sin could possibly be described as "venial" then??  ALL of our sins need to be atoned for by Christ if we ever want to see life.The good news is, they will be, because that's exactly what God has graciously promised to do for us who are in Christ .. cf 1 John 1:9.

 

1 John 1

9      If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


--David

 

Dear David - My first question is, what is a venial sin?  A venial sin is a small sin that does not cause the death of the soul. A :sin not unto death" as John calls it. See ! John 5 16-17 - "16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death."

 

A mortal sin is a grave offense against God, and causes the death of the soul. See St. Paul's statement for examples of mortal sins. "1 Corinthians 6:9 King James Version (KJV)

 

9" Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind," 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God".

 

Also, what point are you trying to make with the above 1 John 1:9 Quote?

 

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On 6/12/2018 at 1:27 PM, zeland said:

A strange question “Is there any sin in heaven”?

 

Some time ago I was listening to a religious discussion on TV, and the question, “Is there any sin in heaven”, was asked. Unfortunately, I did not hear the end of the discussion. I thought, however, this was a rather strange question, one that I had never thought about. If we were to ask the average Christian this question I suppose he would say “No”, and I believe he would be correct, based on what the scriptures say. According to the Bible, there are no imperfections of any kind in heaven, “And there shall not enter into it anything defiled” (Revelation 21:27). In other words, no imperfections in heaven, nothing impure, unclean, etc. Likewise in Habakkuk 1:13“Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate iniquity” Also, in Matthew 5:48 we read – “Be ye perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

 

Suppose I died tomorrow, I feel that I am justified in the Lord’s sight, and should go to heaven, but am I in a state of absolute moral perfection? Am I absolutely free from any attachment to sin or worldly pleasures? Again if we ask our Christian friend (or ourselves for that matter) this same question: are any of us in the state of absolute moral perfection? I think that most people would hesitate to say yes. To my way of thinking, saying yes would certainly, considering our fallen human nature, be most presumptuous on our part. Even if we were bold enough to make such a statement, can we really be sure we are perfect in God’s sight?

 

St. Paul gives us the answer – he says no! “…indeed, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me justified. It is the Lord who judges me.  Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God” (1 Corinthians 4:3-5). So what happens then when we die then if our soul is not in a state of 100% absolute moral perfection? If we are not yet perfect, but we must be perfect to enter heaven – what happens?

 

Hi Zeland! I guess we need a bit more information. Are you speaking of the intermediary state in which St Paul speaks of in 2 Corinthians 5, that is absent from the body (our mortal bodies) present (our souls or inner man) with the Lord?  

 

Or do you speak of us as resurrected in our glorified bodies as you mention Revelation 21, which is after the Resurrection?

 

Thirdly, how would either case be a subject of a sinful presence before our Lord?

 

Thanks.

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On 6/12/2018 at 2:10 PM, zeland said:

Dear Deade,

 

Thanks for your reply. If no one is in heaven (and I do not dispute your claim), then where are the souls of the of those who have died. They are not in heaven, they are not in hell, and they are not alive on earth, so where are they. Also, your scriptures do not answer the basic question - if our soul is not in a state of 100% absolute moral perfection, and therefore we are not yet perfect, but we must be perfect to enter heaven – what happens? how do we become perfect?

Wow in your attempt to teach a need for purgatory you stumbled on the heresy of soul sleep.  Sorry that happened.

 

 

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13 hours ago, zeland said:

Dear David - My first question is, what is a venial sin?  A venial sin is a small sin that does not cause the death of the soul. A :sin not unto death" as John calls it. See ! John 5 16-17 - "16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death."

 

A mortal sin is a grave offense against God, and causes the death of the soul. See St. Paul's statement for examples of mortal sins. "1 Corinthians 6:9 King James Version (KJV)

 

9" Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind," 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God".

 

Also, what point are you trying to make with the above 1 John 1:9 Quote?

 

The Apostle John is emphasizing mindfulness towards the falls of our brethren, and to avoid the cruelty of condemning our brethren despairing them of their salvation. Differentiating between Venial and Mortal sins are unnecessary. "A sin not unto death" exists because the Elect do not experience the Wrath or Condemnation of God, but rather we are chastised. Death has no dominion over us because we are pardoned of our sins through Jesus Christ's sacrifice. 

 

God bless,

William

 

 

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18 hours ago, deade said:

Simply a vision!

More than a vision. Stephen was confident his spirit or inner man would be taken up by God.  This was something to be confident in given the following:

 

Luke 23: NASB

 

39One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!” 40But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41“And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

 

[...]

 

46And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” Having said this, He breathed His last.

 

 

 

 

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On 6/13/2018 at 5:00 AM, Placable37 said:

I dealt with this in an earlier post on this thread. You missed it, CDF47.

OK, I will check for it.

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