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John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
atpollard

Calvinism: What Have We Been Elected For?

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Can we have an honest conversation.  Most people, including some Calvinists, have a problem accepting the mental image that a good God has elected some to an eternity of life and love and perfect happiness with him, while abandoning everyone else to a fate of eternal torment.  Everything good for a few, and everything bad for the majority.

 

If you will indulge me on a little Bible study, I would like to take a closer look at this election and what we have been elected for.

 

First some general things that the elect are called to:

 

  • [Ephesians 2:10 NASB] 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

 

So the first thing is that we have not been called to nothing.  The elect have been called to do something.  We have been ELECTED from among the population of the Earth to do the specific good works that God has already prepared for us to do.  So, like what?

 

  • [Matthew 28:19-20 NASB] 19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
  • [Acts 1:7-8 NASB] 7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."
  • [Acts 2:38-39 NASB] 38 Peter [said] to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

 

The ELECT are called to be Christ’s witnesses to the world.  When we received the Holy Spirit, we received the commission that went with it to carry word of Him to the world, to make disciples, to teach them to observe all Jesus has commanded.

 

A word of warning for the Prosperity Gospel crowd, being one of the elect is not like winning a lottery ticket to easy-street.  Being one of the ELECT is a lottery ticket to being hated in this life.  Don’t take my word for it, read what Jesus and the Apostles say about it for yourself:

 

  • [John 15:16-20 NASB] 16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and [that] your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17 "This I command you, that you love one another. 18 "If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before [it hated] you. 19 "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you. 20 "Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.
  • [Acts 5:41 NASB] 41 So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for [His] name.
  • [Acts 9:16 NASB] 16 for I will show him how much he must suffer for My name's sake."
  • [Romans 8:17 NASB] 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]
  • [1 Corinthians 12:26 NASB] 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if [one] member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
  • [2 Corinthians 1:6 NASB] 6 But if we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; or if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which is effective in the patient enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer;
  • [2 Corinthians 7:9 NASB] 9 I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to [the point of] repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to [the will of] God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.
  • [Galatians 3:4 NASB] 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain?
  • [Phl 1:29 NASB] 29 For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
  • [1 Thessalonians 3:4 NASB] 4 For indeed when we were with you, we [kept] telling you in advance that we were going to suffer affliction; and so it came to pass, as you know.
  • [2 Timothy 1:12 NASB] 12 For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.
  • [2 Timothy 2:3, 9 NASB] 3 Suffer hardship with [me,] as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. ... 9 for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal; but the word of God is not imprisoned.
  • [1 Peter 2:20 NASB] 20 For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer [for it] you patiently endure it, this [finds] favor with God.
  • [1 Peter 3:14, 17 NASB] 14 But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED, ... 17 For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong.
  • [1 Peter 4:19 NASB] 19 Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.
  • [Revelation 2:10 NASB] 10 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

 

So let’s talk about Calvinistic Election.  The ELECT have won a ‘cosmic lottery’ granting them the ‘honor’ of being selected by the great ‘I AM’ to work for Him as His messengers in a world that will hate us.  This honor will include being mocked, discriminated against, and much worse.  Many will be beaten and many more killed.  This is what God has elected us to.

 

We have a promise that those who suffer well to the end, will be rewarded.

 

  • [Matthew 10:22 NASB] 22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.
  • [Matthew 24:13 NASB] 13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
  • [Matthew 28:20 NASB] 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
  • [Mark 13:13 NASB] 13 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

 

God has not warned us that the ELECT will be called to endure “health, wealth and happiness” to the end and encouraged us that He will be with us to give us the strength to survive all of the blessings.  We have been elected to be those led at the end of the train of captives.  The slaves.  The beaten and oppressed.  The least in this world.  We have been called to be those who DO for God and who SUFFER for God.

 

There is a story that describes the life of the ELECT both now and later:

 

  • [Luke 16:19-25 NASB] 19 "Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20 "And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21 and longing to be fed with the [crumbs] which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' 25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.

 

Does it still seem unfair that God does not ELECT everyone to suffer for His name?

 

  • [Matthew 16:24 NASB] 24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.
  • [Mark 8:34 NASB] 34 And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.
  • [Luke 9:23 NASB] 23 And He was saying to [them] all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.
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This self denial is always what we are called for. If anything in this world becomes more important than our service to God, He can't use us. That could mean a home , a business, a child or even a spouse. Most of us will be tested on this. It means forfeiture of our hope and dreams within this world system. Our eyes must be looking for the kingdom of God.

 

1 Cor. 15:19 "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable." 

 

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On 6/11/2018 at 12:01 PM, atpollard said:

Does it still seem unfair that God does not ELECT everyone to suffer for His name?

Yes, what is a life time off suffering, compared to eternity with our Lord?

 

James tells us to count it all Joy

 

James 1:22

Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, 3for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

 

Peter tells us to rejoice in our suffering

 

1Peter 4:12

12Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. 13But rejoice insofar as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.

 

Paul tells us to rejoice

Romans 5

12Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. 13But rejoice insofar as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.

 

Its not until the holy Spirit is in us, that we hate our flesh and rejoice in the Lord. It is because of the Holy Spirit that we can look at our troubles and hardships and rejoice knowing that we are his children. Suffering is hard, but we can endure it because he is in us

 

Its not only Christians that endure persecution or hardships, where is the hope of those who are not called. Yes it seems unfair.

 

Yes, the Christian life may bring us hardships, but how does that compare to eternal torment?

As a Christian we may suffer for 10, 20, 30 years, how does that compare to suffering for eternity.

 

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I can't imagine anyone in heaven challenging God on this issue, like who's going to say, "Excuse me, All-Knowing, All-Present, All-Powerful God, but I think you've missed a few people that should be here, whose names should have been in the Lamb's Book of Life but aren't due to a clerical error!!!"  image.thumb.png.3c783b079825822d49cb04f24deffe73.png

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1 hour ago, Placable37 said:

God on this issue, like who's going to say, "Excuse me, All-Knowing, All-Present, All-Powerful God, but I think you've missed a few people that should be here, whose names should have been in the Lamb's Book of Life but aren't due to a clerical error!!!"  

I am not challenging God, I am challenging the concept that our loving Father would create man sinful, give him a sin nature, then punish him because he was not called.

I am questioning that.

God creates man, only chooses a few and punishes everyone else, because they are unable to turn from sin without him, for eternity. That certainly doesn't sound like an all loving God and Father.

 

 

 

 

 

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Joh 8:41  Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 
Joh 8:42  Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 
Joh 8:44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 

 

Exo_34:14  For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: 
Deu_4:24  For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. 

Num_12:9  And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed. 

 

Zep_2:2  Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you. 
Rom_12:19  Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 


 Often we have the mistaken idea that God's love is 'teddy bear' like. 

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6 hours ago, Guppy said:

I am not challenging God, I am challenging the concept that our loving Father would create man sinful, give him a sin nature, then punish him because he was not called.

I am questioning that.

Scripture doesn't convey that.

 

6 hours ago, Guppy said:

God creates man, only chooses a few and punishes everyone else, because they are unable to turn from sin without him, for eternity. That certainly doesn't sound like an all loving God and Father. 

 

Half truth, what you said, "because they are unable to turn from sin without him, for eternity" is not what Scripture conveys. They are sinners plain and simple. They are held accountable for their sins plain and simple. They've rejected Christ, the only sacrifice for the entire world, they're held to answer for their own sins, plain and simple.

 

What you're suggesting then is that God must convey effectual Grace to everyone without exception or He is not all loving. I noticed you put your "all" in there. Obviously, the Scriptural God and your projection onto God do not align at all. What makes you think God is all loving? One only needs to go to the Scriptures which state what or who God hates.

 

God bless,

William

 

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4 hours ago, Guppy said:

I am not challenging God, I am challenging the concept that our loving Father would create man sinful, give him a sin nature, then punish him because he was not called.

I am questioning that.

God creates man, only chooses a few and punishes everyone else, because they are unable to turn from sin without him, for eternity. That certainly doesn't sound like an all loving God and Father.

Yeah, I challenge the concept that our loving Father would create man sinful...He didn't.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
He knew all mankind would sin because they could. Adam wasn't created with a sinful nature, he sinned because he could and that's when nature became contaminated, polluted, having the nature of sin introduced to it.

But God in His infinite wisdom made provision for the human race to be delivered from the bondage to sin and relieved of its burden.

Everyone who is saveable will be saved.  

 

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11 hours ago, William said:

Scripture doesn't convey that.

 

 

Half truth, what you said, "because they are unable to turn from sin without him, for eternity" is not what Scripture conveys. They are sinners plain and simple. They are held accountable for their sins plain and simple. They've rejected Christ, the only sacrifice for the entire world, they're held to answer for their own sins, plain and simple.

 

What you're suggesting then is that God must convey effectual Grace to everyone without exception or He is not all loving. I noticed you put your "all" in there. Obviously, the Scriptural God and your projection onto God do not align at all. What makes you think God is all loving? One only needs to go to the Scriptures which state what or who God hates.

 

God bless,

William

 

A good point!

Yeah people "get it in their heads" that God must be "all loving" because that's the God everyone "wants" granted God is love but he's not allowed to hate?

Who has read Genesis,who has read of the flood in Noah's time, and of sodom and gomorrah?

Show of hands please!

 

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16 hours ago, Guppy said:

 

I am not challenging God, I am challenging the concept that our loving Father would create man sinful, give him a sin nature, then punish him because he was not called.

I am questioning that.

God creates man, only chooses a few and punishes everyone else, because they are unable to turn from sin without him, for eternity. That certainly doesn't sound like an all loving God and Father.

 

 

 

 

 

Do tell where this supposed scripture is that God made man sinful,I have read the entire bible and not once have I come across it, strange.................

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1 hour ago, Joefizz said:

Do tell where this supposed scripture is that God made man sinful,I have read the entire bible and not once have I come across it, strange.................

We really need to cut the "free willers" just a little slack on this point.  I mean an OMNIPOTENT God can't really say that he was powerless to prevent people from being born with a fallen nature and He really wants to, but God just can't elect them.  The fact of the matter is the "potter" has created some vessels destined for his use and some destined for destruction.  God has granted some vessels the freedom to follow their dark urges to their ultimate destruction.  The only hint of "WHY" that we are given is that this act of JUSTICE will somehow bring GLORY to God.  I don't really need to understand it, like most of the "End Times" stuff, I figure that it will all make sense when I see it for myself.

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14 hours ago, William said:

not challenging God, I am challenging the concept that our loving Father would create man sinful, give him a sin nature, then punish him because he was not called.

I am questioning that.

 

14 hours ago, William said:

Scripture doesn't convey that.

I agree Will,  I said the concept. The opening post said

 

On ‎6‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 12:01 PM, atpollard said:

Can we have an honest conversation.  Most people, including some Calvinists, have a problem accepting the mental image that a good God has elected some to an eternity of life and love and perfect happiness with him, while abandoning everyone else to a fate of eternal torment.  Everything good for a few, and everything bad for the majority.

I knew nothing about Calvinism till I came to this forum. This is the picture this forum has painted to me.

 

14 hours ago, Placable37 said:

Yeah, I challenge the concept that our loving Father would create man sinful...He didn't.

I agree, why then in this forum  Calvin's believe that infants who die or unborn may not go to heaven, but suffer for eternity  

 

This is a quote from a member, why would a child who hasn't sinned yet be judged?

 

God is within his rights to damn everyone (including infants) for our innate sin nature.

God chooses to grant grace to whomever He pleases (including infants)

 

We inherited a sin nature, not sin. We are not guilty till we sin

 

2 hours ago, Joefizz said:

Do tell where this supposed scripture is that God made man sinful ,I have read the entire bible and not once have I come across it, strange.................

Again I am responding to opening post

 

How can a child can be guilty, before he or she sin, how is that child responsible, if he or she has not sinned?

14 hours ago, William said:

What makes you think God is all loving

I apologize, I heard the expression before and thought it was biblically based, but we know God is love

Gods nature is love, which is why us "free willers" have a problem with

On ‎6‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 12:01 PM, atpollard said:

  Most people, including some Calvinists, have a problem accepting the mental image that a good God has elected some to an eternity of life and love and perfect happiness with him, while abandoning everyone else to a fate of eternal torment.  Everything good for a few, and everything bad for the majority.

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Guppy said:

 

I agree Will,  I said the concept. The opening post said

 

I knew nothing about Calvinism till I came to this forum. This is the picture this forum has painted to me.

 

I agree, why then in this forum  Calvin's believe that infants who die or unborn may not go to heaven, but suffer for eternity  

 

This is a quote from a member, why would a child who hasn't sinned yet be judged?

 

God is within his rights to damn everyone (including infants) for our innate sin nature.

God chooses to grant grace to whomever He pleases (including infants)

 

We inherited a sin nature, not sin. We are not guilty till we sin

 

Again I am responding to opening post

 

How can a child can be guilty, before he or she sin, how is that child responsible, if he or she has not sinned?

I apologize, I heard the expression before and thought it was biblically based, but we know God is love

Gods nature is love, which is why us "free willers" have a problem with

 

Looks like you have a lot to sort out,in regards to born children taking responsibility for sin they are "attested" for by God/Jesus not because they don't have sin but because they don't know it and so therefore aren't held accountable.

Edited by Joefizz

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4 hours ago, Guppy said:

We inherited a sin nature, not sin. We are not guilty till we sin

Is a baby born obeying the COMMAND of God to ... " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" [Luke 10:27] ?

 

If not, then (s)he just sinned.

 

I stand by my statement that God is free to show Grace towards anyone He chooses (including babies) but God is obligated to show Grace to no one.  Just show me the scripture verse that says anything to the contrary and I will be glad to reconsider my views.

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11 hours ago, Guppy said:

I agree, why then in this forum  Calvin's believe that infants who die or unborn may not go to heaven, but suffer for eternity  

 

This is a quote from a member, why would a child who hasn't sinned yet be judged?

 

God is within his rights to damn everyone (including infants) for our innate sin nature.

God chooses to grant grace to whomever He pleases (including infants)

 

We inherited a sin nature, not sin. We are not guilty till we sin

Just curious how you'll respond Guppy.

  • Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

Infants die do they not Guppy? If an infant's sin nature is not enough to condemn that person to death then why do they bare the penalty of sin? Or is it your argument that physical death is the only penalty for Adam's imputed unrighteousness and not eternity? Perhaps you believe in some sort of infant purgatory where they'll remain until maturing? Do you think that there is a chance in hell that anyone (infants included) is righteous apart from Christ?

 

Do you believe that you're saved by the federal head Jesus Christ's imputed righteousness? And to clarify, you do not believe everyone apart from Jesus is condemned by the federal head Adam's imputed unrighteousness?

 

Lastly, I'd like to address a few verses which pertain to the Father's election:

  • John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
  • John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
  • John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

My question is this, is everyone the Father gives to Christ (Election) saved? That is, does Jesus lose any of the Elect? If all infants are given to Christ until an age of accountability and then they reject Christ, does that mean they'll lose their salvation? To clarify, I'm wondering if you believe all infants are "temporarily" saved until they reach an age of accountability? If so, how do you reconcile hell compelling someone to accept Christ with free will? And let me make a pot shot, do you believe abortionist are doing infants murdered in the womb an eternal favor?

 

God bless,

William

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Rev 3:20  Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.  ESV

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The Bible teaches that God predetermined,  ordained, elected, chosen certain people whom are His. How God has done this is know only to Him. Duet. 29:29 I know not whom He has chosen, be it and infant, child or adult. I can not, nor will not allow my emotional feelings to contradict what Scripture teaches. I can most certainly understand how one could assume that all souls under hat so called "age of accountability" are saved. However if we take that position, does that not take away Gods predetermined, chosen will for ALL souls. God knows the future and knows how we each person will or would have responded to the Grace of Jesus Christ and His offer of salvation and eternal life with God the Father and Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

 

I by no means feel anything but humbled, blessed beyond words.  I once thought so differently, but reading the Scripture for a very long time changed my mind to see that God is in total Control. We can't allow our feelings to overshadow the truth, God knows all.         

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On ‎6‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 10:02 PM, Joefizz said:

Looks like you have a lot to sort out,in regards to born children taking responsibility for sin they are "attested" for by God/Jesus not because they don't have sin but because they don't know it and so therefore aren't held accountable.

That's my point, I agree that they are not held accountable

 

 

 

 

On ‎6‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 10:49 PM, atpollard said:

Is a baby born obeying the COMMAND of God to ... " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" [Luke 10:27] ?

 

If not, then (s)he just sinned.

 

I stand by my statement that God is free to show Grace towards anyone He chooses (including babies) but God is obligated to show Grace to no one.  Just show me the scripture verse that says anything to the contrary and I will be glad to reconsider my views.

Again your talking about someone who hasn't had the chance to love God

 

Remember in your opening post you asked, does it still seem unfair the some are chosen and some are not,  This is one good reason.

 

What did Jesus think of the little ones?

Matthew 19: 14. and said to them, Allow the children to come to me, and do not hinder them, for of those who are like these is the Kingdom of Heaven.

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On ‎6‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 4:04 AM, William said:

Just curious how you'll respond Guppy.

  • Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

It says death spread to all men because all men sinned, we don't die because of Adams sin we die because of our own sin

 

On ‎6‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 4:04 AM, William said:

Infants die do they not Guppy? If an infant's sin nature is not enough to condemn that person to death then why do they bare the penalty of sin?

That is what we are discussing, I said an infant does not bare the penalty of sin, if you are speaking about physical death, we inherited our physical bodies from Adam with all there limitations.

 

On ‎6‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 4:04 AM, William said:

Do you believe that you're saved by the federal head Jesus Christ's imputed righteousness? And to clarify, you do not believe everyone apart from Jesus is condemned by the federal head Adam's imputed unrighteousness?

No, I believe we are condemned by our own sinful actions.

 

On ‎6‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 4:04 AM, William said:

My question is this, is everyone the Father gives to Christ (Election) saved? ( I believe so)That is, does Jesus lose any of the Elect? (no) If all infants are given to Christ until an age of accountability and then they reject Christ, does that mean they'll lose their salvation? (yes) To clarify, I'm wondering if you believe all infants are "temporarily" saved until they reach an age of accountability?     ( I don't know if I would put it that way, I would say they are not guilty until the age of accountability , then sin)  If so, how do you reconcile hell compelling someone to accept Christ with free will?( I am not sure what you are asking me here, but I don't think hell compels unbelievers to Christ, if they don't believe in Christ I doubt they believe in hell)  And let me make a pot shot, do you believe abortionist are doing infants murdered in the womb an eternal favor ( It is a crazy question. Its no more an eternal favor, then it would be to torture you or me to death or any other Christian, but I believe they would be with the Lord 

 

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53 minutes ago, Guppy said:

It says death spread to all men because all men sinned, we don't die because of Adams sin we die because of our own sin

So you agree that infants sin? All men are subject to death because we have all, Paul says, sinned.

 

53 minutes ago, Guppy said:

That is what we are discussing, I said an infant does not bare the penalty of sin, if you are speaking about physical death, we inherited our physical bodies from Adam with all there limitations.

 

53 minutes ago, Guppy said:

No, I believe we are condemned by our own sinful actions. 

 

This is the problem. Besides rejecting what the text says, you do not believe man is imputed Adam's unrighteousness.

 

“Death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come” (v. 14).

- Romans 5:13-14

 

In the latter half of Romans 5, Paul teaches that God deals with the human race under a system known as “federalism.” Simply put, federalism has to do with representation, with one person acting on behalf of another. God has appointed two representatives in history: Adam and Christ. Adam did not represent the race well; he disobeyed God. As a result, all of his descendants are born with an inclination to sin, and they all share in his guilt and suffer the same penalty he received—death. This is what Paul means when he says in verse 12 that “all sinned.” In today’s verses, Paul seeks to support this argument. -

Our First Federal Head | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org

 

God bless,

William

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9 hours ago, Guppy said:

What did Jesus think of the little ones?

Matthew 19: 14. and said to them, Allow the children to come to me, and do not hinder them, for of those who are like these is the Kingdom of Heaven.

Let's take this scripture in context. Jesus was saying allow the children access to Him. For one thing, the exposure can't hurt them. Let's look at another gospel account where the Lord completes the thought.

 

Luke 18:16, 17 ""But Jesus called them to him, saying, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God.Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”" 

 

I think Jesus is referring to have faith as a little child. When I first believed, it was hard to set aside my scepticism and just believe.

 

I had a full-term stillborn son. As much as I loved him God loves him more. I love in part, God is love (1 John 4:8). Still it wouldn't be fair for him to receive salvation without having to overcome anything. That is why we are promised trouble while dwelling on earth. Overcoming that trouble builds spiritual character when tackled with faith. That is why I will trust God to do the very best by my son.

 

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7 hours ago, William said:

So you agree that infants sin? All men are subject to death because we have all, Paul says, sinned.

In no way did I say that, I said we die because of our own sin.

 

7 hours ago, William said:

This is the problem. Besides rejecting what the text says, you do not believe man is imputed Adam's unrighteousness.

What text did I reject? I have already stated the I believe we inherited a sin nature, not his sin. We will indeed sin, but until then, I believe we/ they are innocent.

 

Romans 5:13–14

13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

 

If sin is not counted where there is no law, how can an infant be guilty

7 hours ago, William said:

As a result, all of his descendants are born with an inclination to sin, and they all share in his guilt and suffer the same penalty he received—death.

 Inclination to sin, not guilty of sin, we are guilty when we sin.  Adam died physically, and we will die physically, I am not guilty of Adams sin, I am guilty of my sin

 

Are you suggesting that Adam, sin was unforgivable. Do you believe him to be with the Father or not with the father

 

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2 hours ago, deade said:

I had a full-term stillborn son. As much as I loved him God loves him more. I love in part, God is love (1 John 4:8). Still it wouldn't be fair for him to receive salvation without having to overcome anything. That is why we are promised trouble while dwelling on earth. Overcoming that trouble builds spiritual character when tackled with faith. That is why I will trust God to do the very best by my son.

 

I am very sorry for your lose!

You said you believe God loved him more, then why would you even think for a second that God would condemn him. I don't

 

Why would it be unfair for him to receive salvation without over coming anything? Did he have a chance? Did he sin? We are promised troubles because of our sin. Did he sin?

 

Luke 18:16, 17 ""But Jesus called them to him, saying, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God.Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”" 

 

Do you believe that Jesus would have said that, if these children were already guilty of sin

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1 hour ago, Guppy said:

I am very sorry for your lose!

You said you believe God loved him more, then why would you even think for a second that God would condemn him. I don't

 

Why would it be unfair for him to receive salvation without over coming anything? Did he have a chance? Did he sin? We are promised troubles because of our sin. Did he sin?

 

Luke 18:16, 17 ""But Jesus called them to him, saying, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God.Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”" 

 

Do you believe that Jesus would have said that, if these children were already guilty of sin

 

I do not believe that God is though with dealing with babies and any others ignorant of Christ atoning work on their behalf.  

 

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12 hours ago, deade said:

I had a full-term stillborn son. As much as I loved him God loves him more. I love in part, God is love (1 John 4:8). Still it wouldn't be fair for him to receive salvation without having to overcome anything. That is why we are promised trouble while dwelling on earth. Overcoming that trouble builds spiritual character when tackled with faith. That is why I will trust God to do the very best by my son.

My condolences for your loss.

Fairness has nothing to do with salvation, faith and belief is what carries us there.  As to how God views those who have died without given the opportunity to hear the Gospel, I believe His perfect mercy and justice will care for them even if we are unable to explain it.

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