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You claim Jesus is coming for a secret rapture, and He will be coming into only the air. If Jesus comes into the atmosphere, that is still "a coming." There is no secret rapture there are saints dying all during the tribulation.

When Christ comes back the very next time, He will encircle the earth while the asleep in Christ will rise and join Him.

 

1 Thess. 4:17: “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." You see, we meet in the air, then we are ever with the Lord; not ever in the air. Then those that are alive will be changed into incorruptible spirits to join him. Jesus said that no man has ascended to heaven.

 

John 3:13: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

 

Don't give me a reference to the transfiguration when Jesus appeared with Moses and Elijah. Matt. 17:9: “And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.”

 

This is an example of a vision. But a vision is just a vision, we should not draw doctrine from them. A vision is an exception to what is literal.  All the patriarchs in Hebrews 11 are still waiting to get to heaven. I remind you this was written after the cross. No, Hebrews 12 doesn't prove anyone in heaven. It is just a reference to Zion.

Everyone says that we will have glorified bodies, after our resurrection. I don't agree, we will be spirit.

 

John said: John 4:24: “God is a spirit: and they that worship Him must  worship Him in spirit and truth.”

 

In 1 John 3:2: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is." Sounds like we will be spirits too. God could be among us and invisible like His angels are. He could make Himself visible and has done so in the past.  

 

Luke 21:25-27: “And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. The sea and the waves roaring; and then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”

 

When Jesus comes back, His countenance will be like the sunrise: glorious!

 

7055.gif

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10 minutes ago, deade said:

When Christ comes back the very next time, He will encircle the earth while the asleep in Christ will rise and join Him.

What Scripture says this? 

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1 hour ago, Becky said:

What Scripture says this? 

The last one quoted Luke 21:25-27. Good night all. We will pick this up tomorrow.

 

7068.gif

 

 

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Luke 21:25 - 27 "And there will be signs in the sun in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;  men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectations of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken." 

 

where - in these verses is Christ encircling the earth?  

 

this is from the NKJV.  What version are you using?  

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12 hours ago, deade said:

When Christ comes back the very next time, He will encircle the earth while the asleep in Christ will rise and join Him.

Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 
Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 
Luk 21:27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 
 

I dont see in these verses what you see.

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13 hours ago, deade said:

You claim Jesus is coming for a secret rapture

There will be nothing secret about the rapture.  If all the Christians are taken from the earth I am sure everybody will notice.

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1 hour ago, Becky said:

Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 
Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 
Luk 21:27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 
 

I dont see in these verses what you see.

Perhaps the following would be a better example:

 

Matt. 24:29-31 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." 

 

Now this shows a visible return before He gathers the saints from the heavenly realm on earth. He shall sweep over the earth the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

1 Thess. 4:15-17 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

 

It all looks visible to me, this is not a third coming but the next coming.

 

7062.gif

 

 

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And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." 

This says from one end of heaven to the other, says nothing of circling  the earth 

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36 minutes ago, Becky said:

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." 

This says from one end of heaven to the other, says nothing of circling  the earth 

You see that is where wordplay comes into it. The heaven listed is from the Greek word for sky:

Heaven = G3772
οὐρανός
ouranos
oo-ran-os'
Perhaps from the same as G3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension heaven (as the abode of God); by implication happiness, power, eternity; specifically the Gospel (Christianity): - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.

 

Only by extension is it listed as the abode of God. Just like in Job chapter one where God was meeting with Satan, it was the heavenly realm on earth. Satan has been bound to the earth since before Eden.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, deade said:

Perhaps the following would be a better example:

 

Matt. 24:29-31 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." 

 

Now this shows a visible return before He gathers the saints from the heavenly realm on earth. He shall sweep over the earth the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

1 Thess. 4:15-17 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

 

It all looks visible to me, this is not a third coming but the next coming.

 

7062.gif

 

 

I think you are missing something.  Look again at Mathew 24:31.  Who gathers the Saints after the Tribulation? The Angels that He sends.

 

Now look at 1  4:2. Who descnds?  Jesus Himself.

 

It's obviously 2 separate events

Edited by Ransol

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4 hours ago, deade said:

Perhaps the following would be a better example:

 

Matt. 24:29-31 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." 

 

Now this shows a visible return before He gathers the saints from the heavenly realm on earth. He shall sweep over the earth the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

1 Thess. 4:15-17 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

 

It all looks visible to me, this is not a third coming but the next coming.

 

7062.gif

 

 

deade -- you sited Luke 21:25 - 27 and said "he would encircle the earth"  the question being asked about is --  your use of the term "encircle" because it is not used in that passage.   What is your definition of "encircle"?  

 

And, yes, it will be visible to everyone and it won't be secret because a noise like a trumpet will be heard. 

 

One of the speculations is that of how many actual Christians are going to be in the world at the time of the gathering up -- what does the Church consist Of?  Born-again believers.  There Are those who label themselves as "Christian" but simply because they go to church regularly or maybe only for Christmas / Easter (Resurrection Day).  Or they attend the same church that their grandparents do / parents go to -- but they'd just as soon be out boating or 'whatever'.  

 

Your comment is "He shall sweep over the earth"  -- where do you find That?  Is that how You are mentally picturing it happening? 

 

The Matthew 24: 29 - 31 passage says that the angels will be sent by Him and "they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other".  Your translation of that is "He shall sweep over the earth"  -- is the wording saying the same thing?  Possibly. 

 

But the question is about the Luke 21 passage.  And the KJV says basically the same thing -- the same wording -- there's no word used that can be looked up in the Greek that says 'encircle'.    

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1 hour ago, Sue D. said:

 

But the question is about the Luke 21 passage.  And the KJV says basically the same thing -- the same wording -- there's no word used that can be looked up in the Greek that says 'encircle'.    

This basically says as the Sun comes up in the East and set in the West isn't happening in one place, thus He will have to encircle for everyone to experience this.

 

Matt. 24:27 "For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

 

The parallel verse:

Luk 17:24  "For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day."

 

This is what it will look like:

Matt. 24:30  "Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

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26 minutes ago, deade said:

This basically says as the Sun comes up in the East and set in the West isn't happening in one place, thus He will have to encircle for everyone to experience this.

 

Matt. 24:27 "For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

 

The parallel verse:

Luk 17:24  "For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day."

 

This is what it will look like:

Matt. 24:30  "Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

They say no such thing basically or any other way.  None of them even mention the Sun.

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Fitting Scripture to  our theologies , our eschatologies any of our logies  we find our selves adding to Scripture . We should be fitting our 'loigies' to the Scripture .

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9 minutes ago, Becky said:

Fitting Scripture to  our theologies , our eschatologies any of our logies  we find our selves adding to Scripture . We should be fitting our 'loigies' to the Scripture .

So true.  It is one of the worst thing anyone could do to the text.

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1 hour ago, Origen said:

They say no such thing basically or any other way.  None of them even mention the Sun.

If this is not the Sun, does lightning always come from the east and shines into the west?

 

lightning = G796
ἀστραπή
astrapē
as-trap-ay'
From G797; lightning; by analogy glare: - lightning, bright shining.

 

Look like sunlight to me. 

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Just now, deade said:

If this is not the Sun, does lightning always come from the east and shines into the west?

 

lightning = G796
ἀστραπή
astrapē
as-trap-ay'
From G797; lightning; by analogy glare: - lightning, bright shining.

 

Look like sunlight to me. 

So you are right and the Scriptures are wrong? You are a Christian you dont really believe the Scripture to be wrong.  

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1 hour ago, deade said:

If this is not the Sun, does lightning always come from the east and shines into the west?

No!

 

1 hour ago, deade said:

lightning = G796
ἀστραπή
astrapē
as-trap-ay'
From G797; lightning; by analogy glare: - lightning, bright shining.

 

Look like sunlight to me. 

You need more light because you cannot see.  Even your source Strong does not make that claim.  You need learn what Strongs is and how to use it.  It is index of occurrences which are glosses from the KJV.  It is not a scholarly lexicon and it is dated to say the least.

 

Let me ask you a question.  If Matthew or any other N.T. author wanted to refer to "lightning" such as in a lightning and thunder storm what Greek word would they use?

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9 minutes ago, deade said:

If this is not the Sun, does lightning always come from the east and shines into the west?

 

lightning = G796
ἀστραπή
astrapē
as-trap-ay'
From G797; lightning; by analogy glare: - lightning, bright shining.

 

Look like sunlight to me. 

A flash of lightening illuminates the entire sky visibly instantly from one end to the other. The advent of Christ comes like lightening.

 

Then how do we reconcile lightening only coming from the East to the West? Possibly, Christ is talking about His first appearance in the East and spreading to the West (Gentiles).

 

God bless,

William

 

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50 minutes ago, William said:

A flash of lightening illuminates the entire sky visibly instantly from one end to the other. The advent of Christ comes like lightening.

 

Then how do we reconcile lightening only coming from the East to the West? Possibly, Christ is talking about His first appearance in the East and His light spreading to the West (Gentiles).

 

God bless,

William

 

Luke really clears the whole matter up.  First, he makes it clear these are "lightning flashes."  It has nothing to do with the Sun.  If Matthew and Luke wanted us to think it was the Sun then there is no reason they could not have used the Greek word for Sun.  Second, Luke drops the "from East to West" and says "the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other."

 

"For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day." (Luke 17:24)

 

Both Matthew's and Luke's point is when the Son of Man comes it will obvious like lightning.  In other words, you can't miss then it happens.

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13 minutes ago, Origen said:

Luke really clears the whole matter up.  First, he makes it clear these are "lightning flashes."  It has nothing to do with the Sun.  If Matthew and Luke wanted us to think it was the Sun then they there is no reason they could not have used would the Greek word for Sun.  Second, Luke drops the "from East to West" and says "lights up the sky from one side to the other."

 

"For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day." (Luke 17:24)

The visual imagery of a lightening flash from out of darkness should not only startle everyone but thunderously shake the unbelieving world. For believers this is a moment of Joy.

  • Psalm 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

There should be terror in the wrath of the Son. Which imagery should conjure up a suddenness in Judgment as Christ smites the foe.

 

 

God bless,

William

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Whether it is lightning or glaring sunshine, we agree it will be visible and terrifying.

 

Rev. 6:14-17 "The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”" 

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On 6/7/2018 at 8:32 PM, deade said:

You claim Jesus is coming for a secret rapture, and He will be coming into only the air. If Jesus comes into the atmosphere, that is still "a coming." There is no secret rapture there are saints dying all during the tribulation.

When Christ comes back the very next time, He will encircle the earth while the asleep in Christ will rise and join Him.

 

1 Thess. 4:17“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." You see, we meet in the air, then we are ever with the Lord; not ever in the air. Then those that are alive will be changed into incorruptible spirits to join him. Jesus said that no man has ascended to heaven.

 

John 3:13“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

 

Don't give me a reference to the transfiguration when Jesus appeared with Moses and Elijah. Matt. 17:9“And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.”

 

This is an example of a vision. But a vision is just a vision, we should not draw doctrine from them. A vision is an exception to what is literal.  All the patriarchs in Hebrews 11 are still waiting to get to heaven. I remind you this was written after the cross. No, Hebrews 12 doesn't prove anyone in heaven. It is just a reference to Zion.

Everyone says that we will have glorified bodies, after our resurrection. I don't agree, we will be spirit.

 

John said: John 4:24: “God is a spirit: and they that worship Him must  worship Him in spirit and truth.”

 

In 1 John 3:2"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is." Sounds like we will be spirits too. God could be among us and invisible like His angels are. He could make Himself visible and has done so in the past.  

 

Luke 21:25-27“And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. The sea and the waves roaring; and then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”

 

When Jesus comes back, His countenance will be like the sunrise: glorious!

 

7055.gif

John 4:24 So, you gonna wait till you are a spirit until you worship Him?

 

Jesus said He is not a ghost,  a ghost does not have flesh and blood, and a ghost does not eat or drink.

 

It's not our spirit that is GOING TO BE made incorruptible,  we are ALREADY made incorruptible in our spirit.  We are to renew our mind here and now.  The only thing left is our physical bodies.  

 

Those in heaven with Christ now, are they in their old spirit, old bodies?  No, new spirit, and at the Pre-Trib rapture,  they will get their incorruptible physical bodies, just like Jesus has.

 

And, the Pre-Trib rapture is no secret, you just have to pay close attention to what the word actually says.  

 

Notice in Thessalonians Paul says "Jesus, Himself will descend and we will gather us" but in Mathew 24, Jesus said He will send His Angels to gather the elect.  

 

Obviously these are not the same event.  

 

 

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6 hours ago, deade said:

Whether it is lightning or glaring sunshine, we agree it will be visible and terrifying.

Sure, that was never in question, but that was not the point of THIS discussion.  This discussion has to do with what the says actually states and what it does not.

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6 hours ago, Origen said:

Sure, that was never in question, but that was not the point of THIS discussion.  This discussion has to do with what the says actually states and what it does not.

It seems the question was when will the saints be gathered, will it be this visible and terrifying day or will it be an earlier date. As Ransol says above, he believes in a pre-trib rapture, number two, secret or no. I say post trib-rapture, as per one on the following chart:

 

image.thumb.png.312466e66a561a4df446aa58a98f4463.png

 

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