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avbunyan

Is thre really a Pre-Trib Rapture? I hope so....but....

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The Rapture Verses

Let’s get one thing clear up front – I do not believe the body of Christ is going through any part of the coming tribulation.  With that being said I am unsure on just how we get out of here before the tribulation starts.  This article will not be an in depth study but just a quick glance at the issue.

          The reason I believe the church will not go thru the tribulation because the tribulation has a definite Jewish flavor.  It is an extension of the Old Testament and the church is not in the Old Testament.  One can lose his “salvation” in the book of Revelation by taking the mark of the beast - saints today are eternally secure.  Again the book of Revelation deals with God’s dealing with Israel and the Gentile nations of the world not the body of Christ.  I will not devote any more time to this subject for the subject a hand is a focus on the ‘rapture verses”.

          The most common verses used for proof-text of a rapture are:

1.     Matt. 24:40, 41 and similar verses in the other gospels.

2.     I Thess. 4: 13-17

3.     I Cor. 15:51-53

4.     Rev. 4:1

Matt. 24:40 and vs. 41 are simple to explain – These passages take place in the great tribulation so therefore are not church age rapture verses.  Also, in the context the setting is referring to the days of Noah where those taken did not go up but were taken in “judgement”.  Look at vs. 37-39.

I Thess. 4:13-17 are set during the tribulation not the church age.  How do I know this?  Look at the context:  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.  Thessalonians is an early Acts book and those folks were waiting for the literal, visible, 2nd coming of the Lord not a rapture.  Saints today are mistaken on the word “coming”.  Whenever the word coming is used it is always referring to the actual 2nd advent of the Lord Jesus Christ – not a rapture.  Just check out whenever the word “coming” is used.  The proper word to use for our “getting out of here” would be the words “appear” and “appearing”.  “Coming” and “appearing” are two different words with different meanings in scripture. The word “coming” is found in the Acts epistles whereas the words “appear or appearing” are found in Paul’s epistles written after Acts 28 – there is a dispensational difference here.  Also, in I Thess. 5:2 the term “day of the Lord” shows up which again puts the time in the tribulation and more precisely at the end of the tribulation when the Lord comes back and steps foot on the Mt. Olivet.  Also, the issue being discussed is the resurrection not a catching away.  I believe that if this is a rapture here it is a catching away of the tribulation saints at the end of the tribulation for they will escape the wrath which is to come.  Finally there is a trump found in vs. 16 which again puts it in the book of Revelation where you find trumpets.

I Cor. 15:51-53 is not dealing with a catching away as usually taught but the resurrection of the dead.  The resurrection of the dead with the hope of Israel and the early church not a rapture – I Cor. 15:12, 13.  The last trump of vs. 52 is found in the tribulation not the church age – trumpets have always been associated with Israel not the church.

Rev.4:1 says “come up hither…” which saints today means the Lord is telling the church to come up hither.  Strange the verse says the Lord is calling to John not the church to come up hither.  Because the word churches is not used after Rev. 3 doesn’t mean the end of the church age – makes interesting preaching but poor doctrine.  

So, there are the main verses used to support a rapture of the church – sorry I just don’t do not see it.  If the church suddenly gets out before the tribulation begins then I hang my hopes on:

Col. 3:1 - If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Col 3:2 - Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

Col 3:3 - For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Col 3:4 - When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

And my other hope is found in Tit.2:13 - Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Now – if you see these ideas I presented differently then I am all ears.

God bless!

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Matthew 24:29,30  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not giver her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." KJV.

 

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and glory." NASB

 

Let the Scripture speak for the truth.  both the KJV and the NASB clearly say "Immediately after the tribulation". That's when Jesus comes, not before.

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2 hours ago, Just Mike said:

That's when Jesus comes, not before.

Thx Mike - I wasn't referring to the second coming of Christ when he will physically return - I am referring to an appearing before the 7 year tribulation.  Matt. 24 deals with the great tribulation and I am talking about Christ's possible appearing before the 7 year tribulation. 

I know Christ comes back after t he 7 year tribulation - I am questioning whether or not there will be a catching away of saints before the 7 year tribulation

God bless

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Where's the chart? We must have charts for all the different theories!!! 😕

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especially PREMILLENIAL theories must have CHARTS!

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4 hours ago, Anto9us said:

especially PREMILLENIAL theories must have CHARTS!

I got your chart right here:

 

image.thumb.png.312466e66a561a4df446aa58a98f4463.png

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2 hours ago, deade said:

I got your chart right here:

 

image.thumb.png.312466e66a561a4df446aa58a98f4463.png

Which one do you think God will choose? 🕛

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13 hours ago, Placable37 said:

Which one do you think God will choose? 🕛

Why number one, of course.

 

7055.gif

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4 hours ago, deade said:

Why number one, of course.

 

7055.gif

I totally agree with ya. But when we get to heaven then.....we won't even care!

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5 hours ago, deade said:

Why number one, of course.

 

7055.gif

Yes sir! Been some great tribulation in the last 2 centuries, definitely going to be some more for some at some point!

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On 6/2/2018 at 1:10 AM, Placable37 said:

Which one do you think God will choose? 🕛

Number two.  Believers have always suffered tribulation but it is the result of Satan persecuting them because of their faith.  A time of tribulation is coming in which God will judge the earth.  Christians will be taken out before this tribulation takes place.  

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On 5/28/2018 at 10:08 AM, avbunyan said:

Let’s get one thing clear up front – I do not believe the body of Christ is going through any part of the coming tribulation. 

Why? I’ll suggest the seven weeks of Dan 9:27 are all tribulation, and only one portion of the Church that remains alive at its inception is promised to be kept from the first 1260 days of the tribulation which is called “The temptation to come upon all the world. That is the Church at Philadelphia for faithfully keeping God’s word, or enduring according to Rev 3:10.

 

I'll go further with this if you're interested. Thanks.

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On 6/5/2018 at 12:17 AM, larry2 said:

Why? I’ll suggest the seven weeks of Dan 9:27 are all tribulation, and only one portion of the Church that remains alive at its inception is promised to be kept from the first 1260 days of the tribulation which is called “The temptation to come upon all the world. That is the Church at Philadelphia for faithfully keeping God’s word, or enduring according to Rev 3:10.

 

I'll go further with this if you're interested. Thanks.

I am interested

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On 5/28/2018 at 10:08 AM, avbunyan said:

I do not believe the body of Christ is going through any part of the coming tribulation.

On 6/5/2018 at 12:17 AM, larry2 said:

Why? I’ll suggest the seven weeks of Dan 9:27 are all tribulation, and only one portion of the Church that remains alive at its inception is promised to be kept from the first 1260 days of the tribulation which is called “The temptation to come upon all the world. That is the Church at Philadelphia for faithfully keeping God’s word, or enduring according to Rev 3:10.

I'll go further with this if you're interested. Thanks.

12 hours ago, Ransol said:

I am interested

Hi Brother Ransol. Rather than just throwing a bunch of scripture at you, I'd like to establish a time frame for the revelations shown the Apostle John in the book of Revelation. Without a proper starting point for the different viewpoints John is writing of, many conclusions are drawn of differing opinion. I will attempt to establish concurance on one truth at a time (as to my understanding) to avoid confusion before moving to the next.

 

The Lord's Day.

The Lord's Day, or the Day of the Lord. From this future time beginning with Rev 4:1 John is shown three viewpoints.

Rev 1:10  I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Rev 1:19  Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.

 

Looking up Rev 1:10 using Bible Hub, most bibles translate it using the term “The Lord’s Day.” (possibly due to the Latin Vulgate translation of the fourth century.

Exceptions were International Standard Version, and Jubilee Bible 2000 translating it as “the Day of the Lord.”
 

The Tyndale Archive of Biblical Studies  http://tyndalearchive.com produce the following commentary of Rev 1:10.

http://tyndalearchive.com/scriptures/www.innvista.com/scriptures/compare/lordsday.htm

 

Commentary

 

Another way of writing The Lord's Day is The Day of the Lord. From a grammatical standpoint, both are in the genitive (possessive) case and express the same meaning.

There are numerous Scriptural references to the Day of the Lord (Isaiah 2: 12-18; 13: 9; Jeremiah 46: 10; Joel 1: 15, 16; 2 Peter 3: 10). All speak of a day in which Yahweh brings destruction on the earth. It is not a quiet day of worship on the first day of the week. Read the whole Book of The Revelation. The writer has described a time of destruction. There is reference to the voice sounding like a trumpet in the passage under discussion. This is consistent with subsequent references in this book (4: 1; 8: 13; and 9: 14). John was taken in the Spirit to a great day of the future.

 

Two passages which are used along with the one being discussed to prove that the seventh-day Sabbath had been replaced by Sunday (the first day of the week) are Acts 20: 7 and 1 Corinthians 16: 2. Use of these, however, shows a lack of knowledge and understanding of Jewish custom. The Sabbath had not been changed to the first day of the week by Jesus. Note that Matthew 28: 1 and Hebrews 4: 9 indicate that the Sabbath was still being kept. However, both references have been mistranslated in many versions of the Scriptures. Hebrews 4 also refers to the Sabbath being kept in the future.

 

The first day of the week begins following the closing of the Sabbath at sundown on Saturday. Candles are used in this closing ceremony. This accounts for the lights at that meeting. Following the ceremony, it is customary to have a meal. Thus, the people had met together on the first day of the week to break bread. After this and during the night, Paul preached to the people. He did not preach all afternoon and evening on Sunday and through the early hours of Monday until morning.

 

Since the people, as well as Paul, were strict about observing the Sabbath, they would not be collecting money on that day. Thus, the direction was given to collect on the first day of the week, which could be on Sunday evening after the closing ceremony or all day on Monday. It was unlike the Christian churches of today that collect on the day of worship, which happens to be the first day of the week."

 

Before continuing I’ll await your response to see if we agree on any parts of this. Thanks.

 

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Well, I think the law covenant was replaced by the Grace covenant.  And in the Grace covenant,  everyday is holy.  

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30 minutes ago, Ransol said:

Well, I think the law covenant was replaced by the Grace covenant.  And in the Grace covenant,  everyday is holy.  

If Rev 1:10 was interpreted as “the Day of the Lord” in the version of the bible you us as we read in Isa 13:9, would that change as to how you think what John is being shown? 

“Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.”

Do you think that John was shown anything of the future; there are some that believe everything, or at least a great deal of it is written as allegories, or types.

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I think John was shown some pretty fantastic things, much of it was not already unheard of in scriptures.  But his "Lord's  day" in Rev 1, is not the same as the "day of the Lord" in Isaiah 13.  Even if they were translated the same.  Isaiah is speaking of an terrible event to take place at some point in the future which is so terrible it will not go unnoticed by anyone.  

John, however, in Revelation 1 was speaking of a past event.  

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10 hours ago, Ransol said:

I think John was shown some pretty fantastic things, much of it was not already unheard of in scriptures.  But his "Lord's  day" in Rev 1, is not the same as the "day of the Lord" in Isaiah 13.  Even if they were translated the same.  Isaiah is speaking of an terrible event to take place at some point in the future which is so terrible it will not go unnoticed by anyone.  

John, however, in Revelation 1 was speaking of a past event.  

Hi Ransol. do you really believe that the tribulation to come will not be horrible?

 

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

John in spirit was actually shown events form that future viewpoint. In Rev 4:1 John was caught up into heaven to witness things to be hereafter. What future time is this “hereafter”? The beginning of the Day of the Lord?

 

Rev 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Let’s take a sample of events of that coming future hereafter John was shown.

Rev 12:1  And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Rev 12:6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (This is the last three and one-half years of the tribulation, also known as Jacob's trouble)

 

Next Rev 17:3  So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Is it possible that this wilderness is actually the unsettled parts of Patmos when Jesus was crucified? No, John was shown things to occur from a future viewpoint. Your turn.  :classic_smile:

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