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avbunyan

The Origen of all Modern Versions

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5 hours ago, Civilwarbuff said:

I would agree but throwing around the words 'ignorance' and 'arrogant' at people because of such a really minor disagreement.....

The words ignorant or arrogant are not being thrown around because of a "minor disagreement". However, the falsehood spread and reluctance to learn is the reason for such descriptive language. If the poster did not think it important, then he made his point and he should move on. But such people seldom can let something go and move on.

 

God bless,

William

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6 hours ago, Origen said:

Here is the Greek text of that verse:

 

προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦg καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

 

Give a detailed grammatical explanation from the Greek text why it is wrong (as you claim) or admit you have no idea what you are talking about.  That way everyone can see yours is a baseless bias built upon a complete lack of knowledge.

I look forward to his response concerning the above concerning Titus 2:13.

Thanks Origen.

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8 hours ago, avbunyan said:

1. Copies of the originals you say? How do you know they are copies?  Do you have the originals to compare?

2. So - you don't believe any bible is perfect.  SO you believe God inspired his word but is not powerful enough to preserve it?

3. I call it confidence in the book I hold in my hands - you call it  arrogance.

The KJV is not an original document.  It's a translation of translation with a reference to copies of copies of copies of the Autographs.  

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16 hours ago, Papa Zoom said:

The KJV is not an original document.  It's a translation of translation with a reference to copies of copies of copies of the Autographs.  

And we Do have the Dead Sea scrolls.  

 

God Has preserved His Word --however, the KJV is Not the first complete Bible in print in the English language. It Has the distinction of being the most popular Bible -- but the NAS is Also popular.  As is the Older NIV  And the ESV is also gaining popularity. It's all God's Word -- compared to those who take the KJV and add other books to make it 'more complete'. 

 

What is dangerous is when people will take the various activities from the Old Testament and say they didn't Really happen.  Like whether the flood was global or local.  Some people simply don't like Why it was global.   And whether Daniel and the lions' den really happened. etc.  If the Bible simply contains lots of stories -- like what would be the point.   Or the 6-day, 24-hr day for creation is really possible. Etc. Etc.  

 

Modern versions are still God's Word. 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/30/2018 at 11:10 AM, Papa Zoom said:

With all the devotion some have to the KJV, you'd think that Paul himself carried around a KJV Bible!   It's such a crazy argument.

No, It is true!

 

Apostle Paul’s King James Bible Up For Auction

🙂

 

[EDIT]

And for you scholars ...

 

King James Version Finally Translated Into Biblical Greek, Hebrew

Edited by atpollard
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On 6/3/2018 at 10:48 PM, ConfessionalLutheran said:

I don't speak Greek and I don't know Hebrew... however, I am in awe of those of you who do.

That's what 'Google Translate' is for.

 

προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦg καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ 

prosdechómenoi tín makarían elpída kaí epifáneian tís dóxis toú megálou theoúg kaí sotíros imón Iisoú Christoú

 

conquering the great hope and outwardness of the glory of the great god and the wisdom of Jesus Christ

 

[Just kidding.]

 

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19 minutes ago, atpollard said:

[Just kidding.]

I hope so. lol

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Isa_55:11  So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. 
Jer

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I see our KJV Only fellow has not returned. Did he get shown to door?

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3 hours ago, Just Mike said:

I see our KJV Only fellow has not returned. Did he get shown to door?

He left on his own.  That does not mean he won't be back.  He believed he would throw out a bunch of hogwash and no one would know the difference, no one would call him on it.  WRONG!  He found out fact that it is one thing to make a claim (that is the easy part) and quite another thing to support that claim with evidence and arguments.

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1 hour ago, Origen said:

He left on his own.  That does not mean he won't be back.  He believed he would throw out a bunch of hogwash and no one would know the difference, no one would call him on it.  WRONG!  He found out fact that it is one thing to make a claim (that is the easy part) and quite another thing to support that claim with evidences and arguments.

This is not the only site he has dumped on and buzzed out. 

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1 minute ago, Just Mike said:

This is not the only site he has dumped on and buzzed out. 

Really!  That is interesting.  Can't take the HEAT!!!🔥

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9 minutes ago, Origen said:

Really!  That is interesting.  Can't take the HEAT!!!🔥

Stir up the pot and then let it burn and leave. Makes for a hot exit.

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Those guys can be fun . :classic_biggrin:

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Posted (edited)
On 5/28/2018 at 8:38 AM, avbunyan said:

All modern versions can be traced back to a lost philosopher named Origen in the 3rd century A.D.

 

1. Origen – 3rd century philosopher

2. Origen was from Alexandria, Egypt

3. Origen ran a school of philosophers (Col. 2:8).

4. Origen’s beliefs – didn’t believe the first three chapters of Genesis were literal, questioned the deity of Christ, works salvation, and allegorized most of Bible

5. Decided to get into the Bible translation business; came up with a 5-column hexaphala – had 4 of his philosophers to help him.  Each philosopher took a column and put down what he thought the Old Testament said.  Origen’s column was the 5th .  The translations were written in Classical Greek (more complicated), not Koine Greek (the common spoken language which the Bibles of the real New Testament were written in.

6. This hexaphala sat around until Constantine was looking for some Old Testament Bibles for his new ecumenical denomination.  He asked Eusebius where he could get some new Bibles.  Esebius said, “I know just the place!”  So, he scampers down to Egypt, asks Origen about where he could get some new versions.  Origen says, “I’ve done some translating here, take a look at my 5th column.”

7. Eusebius takes 50 copies of Origen’s 5th column and brings them back to Constantine.  Vaticanus and Sinaiaticus most likely came from these.  They were written on velum scrolls, which are why they stayed in tact so long, plus, nobody read them – God didn’t have His hand on them.  The scriptures were written on papyrus and wasted away because people read and copied them – in other words… God used them.

8. From here they end up in Rome with its religion (Catholic).

9. From here they circulate around Italy, Spain, and France (Roman Catholic).

10. In 1400’s or so these manuscripts become the Douay Rheims (Roman Catholic).

11. From there the Catholics take their version and go about conquering with the sword to the Americas.

12. The rest of the “Alexandrian bibles” stay locked up in Rome and monasteries. 

13. These “bibles” were available to the KJV translators in 1611 and they ignored them.

14. In 1881a conference was called to “update” the AV1611.  Two “Christian” bible critics (Westcott and Hort) said they had the best and oldest manuscripts.  Where do you think they got them?  You got it – Vaticanus and Sinaiticus type stuff.  They snuck them into the revision committee saying these were the best of the bunch and sold them as fish wraps disguised as manuscripts.

15. From this committee you got the RV 1881

16. America joined in the fun with their committee in 1901 – they used the same texts the RV came from and they came up with the RV1901 – from there it went to the RSV, NASV, Good News, Living Bible, NRSV, the New New New RSV, NIV, and all the rest of the new versions.

 

Bottom line – all new versions are based upon Origen’s work in the 3rd century – they are not updated King James Bibles.

God bless

Excellent post of truth, I agree 100%

 

Proven who was banished from Alexandria for his "Arian" heresy.

 

In 325 AD the council of Nice a declared Proven Anathema.

 

99% of those sitting in the pew don't have a clue about the text types, or where they were received and used.

 

Yes ole Englishmen Wescott & Hort in 1881 delivered their new text to the world, in 1901 it hit American soil in the Revised Standard Version.

 

Yes they used Origen's work from Alexandria Egypt.

 

Edited by Truth7t7

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Well the first three chapters of Genesis aren't literal.  One thing I know, it's easy to twist history which is what KJV only advocates do.   They have that in common with Mormonism and with Islam:  The Bible was corrupted (all versions) except the one we use. 

 

Origen learned philosophy as did Paul.  So what?

 

And the Hexapla had six columns, not 5.  Except some sources say there were 8.   The Hexapla was destroyed so all we have are fragments of writings and copies.   

 

But let's all use a version that cannot be fully understood easily due to its archaic language, many words of which are no longer used and therefore meaningless.  And lets point to every other version of the Bible and claim they are corrupt except for the one used by KJV only peeps.  Just like a cult.

 

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5 hours ago, Truth7t7 said:

Yes they used Origen's work from Alexandria Egypt. 

Since 90% of your post really has nothing to do with Bible Translations (who cares what Origen believed, did it impact what he copied?), could you just provide some support for your claim that Wescott & Hort is based on "Origen's work from Alexandria Egypt" and that modern Translations are based on the Wescott & Hort translation of 1881.

 

[I happen to know that neither 'fact' is accurate, but am curious what sources you are getting your information from.]

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5 hours ago, Truth7t7 said:

Excellent post of truth, I agree 100%

lol

 

5 hours ago, Truth7t7 said:

Proven who was banished from Alexandria for his "Arian" heresy.

Who ever it was it wasn't Origen.

 

5 hours ago, Truth7t7 said:

In 325 AD the council of Nice a declared Proven Anathema.

What?  None of that had anything to do with Origen.

 

All of your claims about Origen are wrong.  It is as simply as that.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Truth7t7 said:

Proven who was banished from Alexandria for his "Arian" heresy.

Origen repeatedly asked Demetrius to ordain him as a priest, but Demetrius continually refused. In around 231, Demetrius sent Origen on a mission to Athens. Along the way, Origen stopped in Caesarea, where he was warmly greeted by the bishops Theoctistus and Alexander of Jerusalem, who had become his close friends during his previous stay. While he was visiting Caesarea, Origen asked Theoctistus to ordain him as a priest.Theoctistus gladly complied. Upon learning of Origen's ordination, Demetrius was outraged and issued a condemnation declaring that Origen's ordination by a foreign bishop was an act of insubordination.

Eusebius reports that, as a result of Demetrius's condemnations, Origen decided not to return to Alexandria and to instead take up permanent residence in Caesarea. John Anthony McGuckin, however, argues that Origen had probably already been planning to stay in Caesarea. The Palestinian bishops declared Origen the chief theologian of Caesarea. Firmilian, the bishop of Caesarea Mazaca in Cappadocia, was such a devoted disciple of Origen that he begged him to come to Cappadocia and teach there.

 

Demetrius raised a storm of protests against the bishops of Palestine and the church synod in Rome itself. According to Eusebius, Demetrius published the salacious allegation that Origen had secretly castrated himself, a capital offense under Roman law at the time and one which would have made Origen's ordination invalid, since eunuchs were forbidden from becoming priests. Demetrius also alleged that Origen had taught a form of apokatastasis, which held that all beings, including even Satan himself, would eventually attain salvation. This allegation probably arose from a misunderstanding of Origen's argument during a debate with the Valentinian heretic Candidus.[6] Candidus had argued in favor of predestination by declaring that the Devil was beyond salvation. Origen had responded by arguing that, if the Devil is destined for eternal damnation, it was on account of his actions, which were the result of his own free will. Therefore, Origen had declared that Satan was only morally reprobate, not absolutely reprobate.

 

  1.  Origen was not banished.
  2.  Origen believed in Free Will (not a heresy) and not Arianism.
    • Arianism is a nontrinitarian Christological doctrine which asserts the belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who was begotten by God the Father at a point in time, a creature distinct from the Father and is therefore subordinate to him, but the Son is also God (i.e. God the Son). Arian teachings were first attributed to Arius (c. AD 256–336), a Christian presbyter in Alexandria of Egypt. The teachings of Arius and his supporters were opposed to the theological views held by Homoousian Christians, regarding the nature of the Trinity and the nature of Christ. The Arian concept of Christ is based on the belief that the Son of God did not always exist but was begotten by God the Father.

    • Origen of Alexandria (c. 184 – c. 253) was dead before Arius (c. AD 256–336) was born to create his Arian teachings, so could not have been banished for them.

 

(wikipedia is your friend for checking simple facts like these) ORIGEN

 

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8 minutes ago, atpollard said:

Origen repeatedly asked Demetrius to ordain him as a priest, but Demetrius continually refused. In around 231, Demetrius sent Origen on a mission to Athens. Along the way, Origen stopped in Caesarea, where he was warmly greeted by the bishops Theoctistus and Alexander of Jerusalem, who had become his close friends during his previous stay. While he was visiting Caesarea, Origen asked Theoctistus to ordain him as a priest.Theoctistus gladly complied. Upon learning of Origen's ordination, Demetrius was outraged and issued a condemnation declaring that Origen's ordination by a foreign bishop was an act of insubordination.

Eusebius reports that, as a result of Demetrius's condemnations, Origen decided not to return to Alexandria and to instead take up permanent residence in Caesarea. John Anthony McGuckin, however, argues that Origen had probably already been planning to stay in Caesarea. The Palestinian bishops declared Origen the chief theologian of Caesarea. Firmilian, the bishop of Caesarea Mazaca in Cappadocia, was such a devoted disciple of Origen that he begged him to come to Cappadocia and teach there.

 

Demetrius raised a storm of protests against the bishops of Palestine and the church synod in Rome itself. According to Eusebius, Demetrius published the salacious allegation that Origen had secretly castrated himself, a capital offense under Roman law at the time and one which would have made Origen's ordination invalid, since eunuchs were forbidden from becoming priests. Demetrius also alleged that Origen had taught a form of apokatastasis, which held that all beings, including even Satan himself, would eventually attain salvation. This allegation probably arose from a misunderstanding of Origen's argument during a debate with the Valentinian heretic Candidus.[6] Candidus had argued in favor of predestination by declaring that the Devil was beyond salvation. Origen had responded by arguing that, if the Devil is destined for eternal damnation, it was on account of his actions, which were the result of his own free will. Therefore, Origen had declared that Satan was only morally reprobate, not absolutely reprobate.

 

  1.  Origen was not banished.
  2.  Origen believed in Free Will (not a heresy) and not Arianism.
    • Arianism is a nontrinitarian Christological doctrine which asserts the belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who was begotten by God the Father at a point in time, a creature distinct from the Father and is therefore subordinate to him, but the Son is also God (i.e. God the Son). Arian teachings were first attributed to Arius (c. AD 256–336), a Christian presbyter in Alexandria of Egypt. The teachings of Arius and his supporters were opposed to the theological views held by Homoousian Christians, regarding the nature of the Trinity and the nature of Christ. The Arian concept of Christ is based on the belief that the Son of God did not always exist but was begotten by God the Father.

    • Origen of Alexandria (c. 184 – c. 253) was dead before Arius (c. AD 256–336) was born to create his Arian teachings, so could not have been banished for them.

 

(wikipedia is your friend for checking simple facts like these) ORIGEN

 

How am I going to have any fun now atpollard?  lol

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I do not know anything about the scholars except what i read and other forums . Those of you claiming KJO remind me of the RCC of old, wanting the masses to stay as uneducated as possible. 

Authorized version? Authorized by who? A man named James Stuart.

I am thankful to King James 

Personally i like the King James it is by far my favorite.  

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On 5/28/2018 at 11:38 AM, avbunyan said:

5. Decided to get into the Bible translation business; came up with a 5-column hexaphala – had 4 of his philosophers to help him.  Each philosopher took a column and put down what he thought the Old Testament said.  Origen’s column was the 5th .  The translations were written in Classical Greek (more complicated), not Koine Greek (the common spoken language which the Bibles of the real New Testament were written in.

6. This hexaphala sat around until Constantine was looking for some Old Testament Bibles for his new ecumenical denomination.  He asked Eusebius where he could get some new Bibles.  Esebius said, “I know just the place!”  So, he scampers down to Egypt, asks Origen about where he could get some new versions.  Origen says, “I’ve done some translating here, take a look at my 5th column.”

7. Eusebius takes 50 copies of Origen’s 5th column and brings them back to Constantine.  Vaticanus and Sinaiaticus most likely came from these.  They were written on velum scrolls, which are why they stayed in tact so long, plus, nobody read them – God didn’t have His hand on them.  The scriptures were written on papyrus and wasted away because people read and copied them – in other words… God used them.

 

Origen of Alexandria (c. 184 – c. 253)

also known as Origen Adamantius, was a Hellenistic scholar, ascetic,  and early Christian theologian who was born and spent the first half of his career in Alexandria. He was a prolific writer who wrote roughly 2,000 treatises in multiple branches of theology, including textual criticism, biblical exegesis and hermeneutics, philosophical theology, preaching, and spirituality. He was one of the most influential figures in early Christian theology, apologetics, and asceticism.  He has been described as "the greatest genius the early church ever produced".

Origen sought martyrdom with his father at a young age, but was prevented from turning himself in to the authorities by his mother. When he was eighteen years old, Origen became a catechist at the Catechetical School of Alexandria. He came into conflict with Demetrius, the bishop of Alexandria, in 231 after he was ordained as a presbyter by his friend, the bishop of Caesarea, while on a journey to Athens through Palestine. Demetrius condemned Origen for insubordination and accused him of having castrated himself and of having taught that even Satan would eventually attain salvation, an accusation which Origen himself vehemently denied. Origen founded the Christian School of Caesarea, where he taught logic, cosmology, natural history, and theology, and became regarded by the churches of Palestine and Arabia as the ultimate authority on all matters of theology. He was tortured for his faith during the Decian persecution in 250 and died three to four years later from his injuries.

 

Eusebius of Caesarea (c. AD 260 – c.339)

also known as Eusebius Pamphili (from the Greek: Εὐσέβιος τοῦ Παμϕίλου), was a historian of Christianity, exegete, and Christian polemicist. He became the bishop of Caesarea Maritima about 314 AD. Together with Pamphilus, he was a scholar of the Biblical canon and is regarded as an extremely learned Christian of his time.[1] He wrote Demonstrations of the Gospel, Preparations for the Gospel, and On Discrepancies between the Gospels, studies of the Biblical text. As "Father of Church History" (not to be confused with the title of Church Father), he produced the Ecclesiastical History, On the Life of Pamphilus, the Chronicle and On the Martyrs.

During the Council of Antiochia (325) he was excommunicated for subscribing to the heresy of Arius, and thus withdrawn during the First Council of Nicaea where he accepted that the Homoousion referred to the Logos. Never recognized as a Saint, he became counselor of Constantine the Great, and with the bishop of Nicomedia he continued to polemicize against Saint Athanasius of Alexandria, Church Fathers, since he was condemned in the First Council of Tyre in 335.

 

Constantine the Great (27 February c. 272 AD – 22 May 337 AD)

also known as Constantine I or Saint Constantine,[3] was Roman Emperor from 306 to 337 AD. He was the son of Flavius Valerius Constantius, a Roman Army officer of Illyrian origins. His mother Helena was Greek. His father became Caesar, the deputy emperor in the west, in 293 AD. Constantine was sent east, where he rose through the ranks to become a military tribune under Emperors Diocletian and Galerius. In 305, Constantius raised himself to the rank of Augustus, senior western emperor, and Constantine was recalled west to campaign under his father in Britannia (Britain). Constantine was acclaimed as emperor by the army at Eboracum (modern-day York) after his father's death in 306 AD, and he emerged victorious in a series of civil wars against Emperors Maxentius and Licinius to become sole ruler of both west and east by 324 AD.

 

Constantine was the first Roman emperor to convert to Christianity. Although he lived most of his life as a pagan, he joined the Christian faith on his deathbed, being baptised by Eusebius of Nicomedia. He played an influential role in the proclamation of the Edict of Milan in 313, which declared religious tolerance for Christianity in the Roman empire. He called the First Council of Nicaea in 325 that produced the statement of Christian belief known as the Nicene Creed. The Church of the Holy Sepulchre was built on his orders at the purported site of Jesus' tomb in Jerusalem and became the holiest place in Christendom. The Papal claim to temporal power in the High Middle Ages was based on the supposed Donation of Constantine (now regarded as a forgery). He is venerated as a saint by the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic Church. He has historically been referred to as the "First Christian Emperor," and he did heavily promote the Christian Church. Some modern scholars, however, debate his beliefs and even his comprehension of the Christian faith itself.

 

I will let the readers decide how likely and reliable the story by avbunyan is given the basic facts of the people involved (can you say "time travel").

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On 6/3/2018 at 4:52 PM, William said:

The words ignorant or arrogant are not being thrown around because of a "minor disagreement". However, the falsehood spread and reluctance to learn is the reason for such descriptive language. If the poster did not think it important, then he made his point and he should move on. But such people seldom can let something go and move on.

 

God bless,

William

How'd early Christians get on for 3/4 hun. yrs w/out a Bible.Sumpthin' abt. the Holy Spirit/wherever 2 or more pray together/Yer all kids havin a snowball fight.The D.S. Scrolls 4 the old test. (ya ninnys) & GODS OK on yer ideas for the rest.Why don't U whiners ever ask ;"whatta they all got in common;(might that B a bit o'truth ?)" All ya do is scuabble over trifals & ISIS gets closer every day;; So lets keep fighting over "quotation marks..".The army of darkness is undevided & don't care if the devil wears brown or black sandals;they want us dead !

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6 hours ago, pastor marty said:

they want us dead !

[Philippians 1:21 NASB] 21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 😉

 

There is also a time and place for TRUTH:

 

[Luk 1:4 NASB] 4 so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught.
[Luk 20:21 NASB] 21 They questioned Him, saying, "Teacher, we know that You speak and teach correctly, and You are not partial to any, but teach the way of God in truth.
[Jhn 8:32, 44-45 NASB] 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." ... 44 "You are of [your] father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [nature,] for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.
[Rom 1:18, 25 NASB] 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, ... 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
[Eph 4:25 NASB] 25 Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE [of you] WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another.

 

 

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