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godsquadgeek

Bible says communism will ultimately fail

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Bible says communism will ultimately fail.  In Matthew 26:11 it takes note that the poor will never be eradicated.  Indicating that there will be ultimately some who are poor, always.  This either proves that communism will fail, or that people will realize that it will fail and never implement it. 

 

Matthew 26:11 New King James Version (NKJV)

11 For you have the poor with you always, but Me you do not have always.

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43 minutes ago, godsquadgeek said:

Bible says communism will ultimately fail.  In Matthew 26:11 it takes note that the poor will never be eradicated.  Indicating that there will be ultimately some who are poor, always.  This either proves that communism will fail, or that people will realize that it will fail and never implement it. 

 

Matthew 26:11 New King James Version (NKJV)

11 For you have the poor with you always, but Me you do not have always.

I always thought communism is doomed because it is inconsistent with the nature of human beings. Sharing equally regardless of your contribution to society and all that does not encourage any special effort, though some minority of citizens may not be able to help themselves. Perhaps there can be no perfect system because of our fallen nature 

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27 minutes ago, Bull of the Woods said:

Perhaps there can be no perfect system because of our fallen nature 

Spot on.

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47 minutes ago, Faber said:

Spot on.

You know why that is. It takes away incentive to hussle and accomplish a hard task. The ones working the hardest are getting rewarded the same as the gold-bricks. Soon everyone is coasting and not working very hard. Why should they?

 

Hmm Thinking Here Smiley Face, Emoticon

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, deade said:

You know why that is. It takes away incentive to hussle and accomplish a hard task. The ones working the hardest are getting rewarded the same as the gold-bricks. Soon everyone is coasting and not working very hard. Why should they?

 

Hmm Thinking Here Smiley Face, Emoticon

I wish more college age students knew this about socialism and communism. 

 

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Edited by godsquadgeek
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3 hours ago, godsquadgeek said:

Bible says communism will ultimately fail.  In Matthew 26:11 it takes note that the poor will never be eradicated.  Indicating that there will be ultimately some who are poor, always.  This either proves that communism will fail, or that people will realize that it will fail and never implement it. 

 

Matthew 26:11 New King James Version (NKJV)

11 For you have the poor with you always, but Me you do not have always.

I'm not sure you can argue that from that verse - communism actually produces poverty (I know it supposed to - but it does) - just look at communist countries, the levels of poverty are huge. Communism will always ultimately fail because it is a godless ideology set up in opposition to the rule of Jesus and Christ - and God laughs at such things (psalm 2).

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18 minutes ago, reformed baptist said:

I'm not sure you can argue that from that verse - communism actually produces poverty (I know it supposed to - but it does) - just look at communist countries, the levels of poverty are huge. Communism will always ultimately fail because it is a godless ideology set up in opposition to the rule of Jesus and Christ - and God laughs at such things (psalm 2).

that verse could indicate a broken system too.  And one that will never be fixed. 

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1 minute ago, godsquadgeek said:

that verse could indicate a broken system too.  And one that will never be fixed. 

No, I believe your taking the verse out of context - Jesus wasn't making a statement about enduring world ideologies! Rather he was rebuking the disciples for their reaction to Mary's act of anointing him.   Matt 26:10-12 "But when Jesus was aware of it, He said to them, "Why do you trouble the woman? For she has done a good work for Me. For you have the poor with you always, but Me you do not have always. For in pouring this fragrant oil on My body, she did it for My burial." - Jesus' point is simple, poverty is part of this fallen world, and will exist as long as it does (regardless of what specific ideologies produce it) - however mary only had a brief opportunity to do what she did - so she should be praised for what she did.  

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4 hours ago, godsquadgeek said:

Bible says communism will ultimately fail.  In Matthew 26:11 it takes note that the poor will never be eradicated.  Indicating that there will be ultimately some who are poor, always.  This either proves that communism will fail, or that people will realize that it will fail and never implement it. 

" According to communist writers and thinkers, the goal of communism is to create a stateless, classless society. Communist thinkers believe this can happen if the people take away the power of the bourgeoisie (the ruling class, who own the means of production) and establish worker control of the means of production. "

   Therefore, your assertion is irrelevant because the goal of communism does not include the elimination of the poor.

 

Aside:  I am not a proponent of communism

 

Satirical Aside:  Perhaps communism should be deemed a success as it is a system that ensures that the poor will always be with us.

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1 hour ago, Fastfredy0 said:

" According to communist writers and thinkers, the goal of communism is to create a stateless, classless society. Communist thinkers believe this can happen if the people take away the power of the bourgeoisie (the ruling class, who own the means of production) and establish worker control of the means of production. "

   Therefore, your assertion is irrelevant because the goal of communism does not include the elimination of the poor.

 

Aside:  I am not a proponent of communism

 

Satirical Aside:  Perhaps communism should be deemed a success as it is a system that ensures that the poor will always be with us.

A secondary purpose of communism is to have all things in common, reducing poverty.  So I think it applies perfectly.

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13 minutes ago, godsquadgeek said:

A secondary purpose of communism is to have all things in common, reducing poverty.

Well, if you insist on that definition then communism is REDUCING POVERTY then  the system can be successful.   China, under communist rule, is now the 2nd (almost 1st) largest economy in the world and the US democracy owes them nearly one trillion dollars .  Thus, if you measurement of a successful system is economics then communism in the Chinese form  is a resounding success.

 

Aside:  To DIRECTLY correlate "the poor will always be with you"  to a form of government is a gross simplification.  It does not account for God's sovereignty, natural resources, war, pestilence, man's evil nature and on and on.

 

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In a large percentage, China is Communist in name only. I have lived here for the past 6 years. Our system (the USA) is more "communistic" with our social services. 

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40 minutes ago, godsquadgeek said:

A secondary purpose of communism is to have all things in common, reducing poverty.  So I think it applies perfectly.

True. 

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Fastfredy0 said:

Well, if you insist on that definition then communism is REDUCING POVERTY then  the system can be successful.   China, under communist rule, is now the 2nd (almost 1st) largest economy in the world and the US democracy owes them nearly one trillion dollars .  Thus, if you measurement of a successful system is economics then communism in the Chinese form  is a resounding success.

 

Aside:  To DIRECTLY correlate "the poor will always be with you"  to a form of government is a gross simplification.  It does not account for God's sovereignty, natural resources, war, pestilence, man's evil nature and on and on.

 

I thought God's word applies to everything including government?  China a resounding success?  but is China strictly communistic?  One may say they are successful in spite of communism.

Edited by godsquadgeek
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, reformed baptist said:

No, I believe your taking the verse out of context - Jesus wasn't making a statement about enduring world ideologies! Rather he was rebuking the disciples for their reaction to Mary's act of anointing him.   Matt 26:10-12 "But when Jesus was aware of it, He said to them, "Why do you trouble the woman? For she has done a good work for Me. For you have the poor with you always, but Me you do not have always. For in pouring this fragrant oil on My body, she did it for My burial." - Jesus' point is simple, poverty is part of this fallen world, and will exist as long as it does (regardless of what specific ideologies produce it) - however mary only had a brief opportunity to do what she did - so she should be praised for what she did.  

are you saying that there will be poor?  Because that is the only way to defeat the logic here.  But that would be simply wrong, obviously.  Direct context does not mean a verse cannot have secondary implications toward other things.  Some believe that most of the Bible only applies to Jews, but it has secondary implications to the gentile church as well. 

Edited by godsquadgeek

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4 hours ago, reformed baptist said:

No, I believe your taking the verse out of context - Jesus wasn't making a statement about enduring world ideologies! Rather he was rebuking the disciples for their reaction to Mary's act of anointing him.   Matt 26:10-12 "But when Jesus was aware of it, He said to them, "Why do you trouble the woman? For she has done a good work for Me. For you have the poor with you always, but Me you do not have always. For in pouring this fragrant oil on My body, she did it for My burial." - Jesus' point is simple, poverty is part of this fallen world, and will exist as long as it does (regardless of what specific ideologies produce it) - however mary only had a brief opportunity to do what she did - so she should be praised for what she did.  

sorry, I was trying to say "are you saying there will not be poor."  That idea is the only concept that will defeat the Bible's verse.   In essence disproving the Bible, but that won't happen.  But again, some people believe the Bible only applies to the Jews (replacement theology), so in essence we would not be part of God's plan, because the context of most of the Bible is Jewish.  But the gentiles were grafted in, and we must apply each and every verse to equally apply to gentiles as well, at least in the church age.  Unless you don't believe Gentiles are part of the church. So all this to say that context is important yes, but secondary applications are also important. 

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On the subject of communism, and the assertion that the Bible says it will ultimately fail, I must agree, but not for the reason given in the OP, but rather because of these verses:

 

1Corinthians 15:22-26
(22)  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(23)  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(24)  Then comes the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
(25)  For he must reign, till he has put all enemies under his feet.
(26)  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

 

As the prince of the power of the air, and the god of this world, Satan corrupts, deceives, and exploits mankind through ideologies like communism, and every other which way he can, but if we do some intelligence gathering we will not be ignorant of his devices (2 Co 2:11)
 

To add to the discussion I quote from this site: https://rbraddam.wordpress.com/2011/02/26/progressivism-and-communism/ 

“Progressive Values” are listed near the bottom of the Communist Manifesto as goals Communism must achieve in order to take over a society. The only difference between Marxism and Progressivism is the strategy and tactics they advocate. Marxist tactics are to instigate armed revolution for violent overthrow of a government while Progressivist tactics are to infiltrate and subvert an existing government system. See the quote from the Communist Manifesto at the bottom of this and you’ll see that the objectives are the same in both cases. You might be surprised at how much progress they have made in the last 100 years.

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1 hour ago, godsquadgeek said:

I thought God's word applies to everything including government?

You should not question this.  God is sovereign. 

 

2 hours ago, godsquadgeek said:

  but is China strictly communistic?

  The incumbent president is Xi Jinping, who is also the General Secretary of the Communist Party of China and the Chairman of the Central Military Commission, making him China's paramount leader.     ..... source is Wikipedia

 

As RB pointed out, your Matt 26:11 is out of context so your entire thesis is nullified.  ANother commenter (Tom Constable) puts it this way: "

“The disciples’ concern for the poor is by no means incorrect. In this one instance, however, the timing was wrong.”

“Implicitly, the distinction Jesus makes is a high christological claim, for it not only shows that he foresees his impending departure but also that he himself, who is truly ‘gentle and humble in heart’ (11:29), deserves this lavish outpouring of love and expense.

“Jesus is the poor, righteous Sufferer par excellence; and the opportunity to help him in any way will soon be gone forever"

 

Again I state, that to DIRECTLY correlate "the poor will always be with you"  to a form of government is a gross simplification.  It does not account for God's sovereignty, natural resources, war, pestilence, man's evil nature and on and on.

 

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Fastfredy0 said:

You should not question this.  God is sovereign. 

 

  The incumbent president is Xi Jinping, who is also the General Secretary of the Communist Party of China and the Chairman of the Central Military Commission, making him China's paramount leader.     ..... source is Wikipedia

 

As RB pointed out, your Matt 26:11 is out of context so your entire thesis is nullified.  ANother commenter (Tom Constable) puts it this way: "

“The disciples’ concern for the poor is by no means incorrect. In this one instance, however, the timing was wrong.”

“Implicitly, the distinction Jesus makes is a high christological claim, for it not only shows that he foresees his impending departure but also that he himself, who is truly ‘gentle and humble in heart’ (11:29), deserves this lavish outpouring of love and expense.

“Jesus is the poor, righteous Sufferer par excellence; and the opportunity to help him in any way will soon be gone forever"

 

Again I state, that to DIRECTLY correlate "the poor will always be with you"  to a form of government is a gross simplification.  It does not account for God's sovereignty, natural resources, war, pestilence, man's evil nature and on and on.

 

I believe just because China is part of a group that is communist does not mean China is fully or completely communist.  How does one compete globally and economically when one does not have a hint of capitalism.  This link fully agrees:   https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/viral-news/2017/10/19/is-china-actually-a-communist-country/ And lastly your commentary is way off base signifying truth about Christ being poor when the context of the passage is obviously others who are poor.

Edited by godsquadgeek

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Fastfredy0 said:

 

Aside:  To DIRECTLY correlate "the poor will always be with you"  to a form of government is a gross simplification.  It does not account for God's sovereignty, natural resources, war, pestilence, man's evil nature and on and on.

 

let me restate my concern about what you wrote here.  I am not correlating "the poor will always be with you" to a form of government, I am correlating it to the world in general.  It's not the government that is poor but the world. The government is not eating bread crumbs out of garbage cans, if you know what I mean.  Typically the government will find a way to feed itself. 

Edited by godsquadgeek

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8 hours ago, godsquadgeek said:

sorry, I was trying to say "are you saying there will not be poor."  That idea is the only concept that will defeat the Bible's verse.   In essence disproving the Bible, but that won't happen. 

I don't believe I have implied (or said) any of that - I have said the context of Jesus' words are not about political ideologies, but about giving Mary the credit that was her due. To take those statements and to imply that Jesus was commenting on specific political/ social ideologies is a huge reach and in my opinion has no exegetical legitimacy. 
 

Quote

 

But again, some people believe the Bible only applies to the Jews (replacement theology), so in essence we would not be part of God's plan, because the context of most of the Bible is Jewish.  But the gentiles were grafted in, and we must apply each and every verse to equally apply to gentiles as well, at least in the church age.  Unless you don't believe Gentiles are part of the church. So all this to say that context is important yes, but secondary applications are also important. 


 

Wow my friend - I simply say I disagree with you that Jesus was commenting about communism specifically and suddenly it is being suggested that maybe I don't believe gentiles are part of the church - that seems to be going off the deep end a little bit :RpS_thumbup: 

 

To be clear I believe all scripture is relevant to me today - however I also believe that all scripture has a context and whilst there are some secondary senses they cannot be divorced from that context. 

 

PS - replacement theology is a pejorative term created by dispensationals to misrepresent the reformed view of the church (it's a straw-man) 

 

So, let's get back on topic eh? 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, reformed baptist said:

I don't believe I have implied (or said) any of that - I have said the context of Jesus' words are not about political ideologies, but about giving Mary the credit that was her due. To take those statements and to imply that Jesus was commenting on specific political/ social ideologies is a huge reach and in my opinion has no exegetical legitimacy. 
 

Wow my friend - I simply say I disagree with you that Jesus was commenting about communism specifically and suddenly it is being suggested that maybe I don't believe gentiles are part of the church - that seems to be going off the deep end a little bit :RpS_thumbup: 

 

To be clear I believe all scripture is relevant to me today - however I also believe that all scripture has a context and whilst there are some secondary senses they cannot be divorced from that context. 

 

PS - replacement theology is a pejorative term created by dispensationals to misrepresent the reformed view of the church (it's a straw-man) 

 

So, let's get back on topic eh? 

 

 

 

All I was saying is that contexts are not all that is available, there are secondary applications, which you refuse to admit (regarding the OP)

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42 minutes ago, godsquadgeek said:

All I was saying is that contexts are not all that is available, there are secondary applications, which you refuse to admit (regarding the OP)

Show me where I have 'refused to admit' there are 'secondary applications' please (in my own words)

 

It's a huge leap to assert that because I disagree with you on how you have taken this verse that I deny the possibility that one may draw legitimate inferences from a text that do not necessarily fit perfectly the primary sense in which the text is understood.  I do however understand that one should not draw such inferences from the text that are alien to the context. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, reformed baptist said:

Show me where I have 'refused to admit' there are 'secondary applications' please (in my own words)

 

It's a huge leap to assert that because I disagree with you on how you have taken this verse that I deny the possibility that one may draw legitimate inferences from a text that do not necessarily fit perfectly the primary sense in which the text is understood.  I do however understand that one should not draw such inferences from the text that are alien to the context. 

the fact that you are questioning my interpretation proves that you refuse to admit there are secondary applications.  You simply state that my interpretation is not in context but refuse to believe that there are secondary applications that are not in context. 

Edited by godsquadgeek
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31 minutes ago, godsquadgeek said:

the fact that you are questioning my interpretation proves that you refuse to admit there are secondary applications.  

If you say so............

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