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Two Adams

Our "new creation" is in Christ and in heaven.

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Posted (edited)

Traditionally speaking Christianity has taught that the believer goes to heaven when he dies. However there are some within the Christian church that reject this view. In this ongoing debate both sides claim the truth and both have their favorite texts. The traditionalist loves to quote 2 Corinthians 5:8 and those in the minority, Ecclesiastes 9:5. Who is right? I say we need to look at this issue from the light of the gospel.

 

First, let me quote Ecclesiastes 9:5

 

“For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing.”

 

Is there in consciousness in death? Not according to this passage, but some will take issue with this clear statement. They will misquote 2 Corinthians 5:8 by stating that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Here’s what it actually states: “We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.”

 

Note that the believer’s preference is to be away from his earthly body and to be home with the Lord. This idea is repeated in verse 2:  "For in this (body) we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven”.  And verse 4 repeats this eagerness again:  “We do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by (eternal) life.” And again, In Romans 8:23 ,Paul states this same idea again: "We ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body."

 

Nowhere in the context of 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 does it imply that the deceased believer is in heaven with the Lord. In fact this idea contradicts the truth as it is “in Christ”; the very gospel itself. How so? Let’s go to 2 Corinthians 5:1

 

"For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have (present tense) a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."  In other words the believer simultaneously has a glorified body in heaven now while in his earthy body here on earth. Here’s proof: “For He (God the Father) rescued us from the domain of darkness (this world under Satan), and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.” Colossians 1:13,14 NASB

 

Question: Are you, a descendant of fallen Adam, in heaven? Of course not! Then what was transferred to heaven?

 

“God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus…” Ephesians 2:4-6 NASB

 

When God the Father raised Christ early Sunday morning He also raised “us” up with Him. And when Christ ascended into heaven we were taken there too! How is this possible? To answer this question requires a knowledge of the gospel.

 

When speaking with His Father, Christ as the Son of God said, “Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, but a body You have prepared for Me” (see Hebrews 10:5)

Keep in mind that as God, Christ is Spirit (see John 4:24). At the incarnation God the Father united the Divinity of Christ to our fallen body or humanity that need redeeming. Thus Christ as God “became flesh, and dwelt among us”. (See John 1:14) For thirty something years Christ as the Son of Man perfectly obeyed His Father’s law (see John 15:10). This fulfilled the positive demands of God’s law “obey and live”.

 

But because Christ as God had assumed our fallen flesh, Christ as the Son of Man had to take our curse to legally save us from “under the curse of the law”. (See Galatians 3:13) Therefore when the Son of Man died all mankind died in Him. (See 2 Corinthians 5:14). That’s why Paul states that “you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ” (Romans 7:4). Why? Because God’s law demanded your death and legally speaking our Adamic life “was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away”. (See Romans 6:6).

 

Before the resurrection the disciples knew “Christ according to the flesh, yet now (after the resurrection) we know Him in this way no longer.” (2 Corinthians 5:16) What happened? Our Adamic life died forever on the cross. In the resurrection God the Father made us spiritually alive together with Christ. Thus God the Father raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus” Ephesians 2:4-6. Thus “in Christ” we have a “new creation”! (See 2 Corinthians 5:17)

 

Conclusion: Christ is called “the last Adam” (1 Corinthians 15:45). In Him we have a “new creation”. “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ (the last Adam) all shall be made alive (future tense). But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His (2nd) coming.” (1 Corinthians 15:22,23)

 

Clearly the believer does not receive immortality, the reward of faith, at his death. The believer’s reward is at the 2nd coming of Christ. “Flesh and blood (our Adamic life) cannot inherit the kingdom of God”! “We must be changed into His image. This will happen “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.” (1 Corinthians 15:50-53)

Edited by Two Adams
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That doesn't seem to be the point of Ecclesiastes 9:5.

If back up to verse for we see that the living still have hope, hope that while one is living God might show him the error of his ways.

 

The Spirit goes to heaven until the resurrection.

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Posted (edited)

If the spirit of man goes to heaven at death then something in us is holy and righteous, but the converted Apostle Paul said, "I know in me dwells nothing good."

 

Furthermore, nothing need go to heaven at the death of the believer because he already has a "new creation" in Christ Jesus in the heavenly places. 

Edited by Two Adams
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We were dead in sin and made alive in Him. 

 

Rom_5:17  For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 

As to His kingdom . The Scriptures tell us what the Kingdom is.. 

 

Rom 14:17  For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 
 

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Just now, Two Adams said:

If the spirit of man goes to heaven at death then something in us is holy and righteous, but the converted Apostle Paul said, "I know in me dwells nothing good."

2Co_5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 

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1 minute ago, Becky said:

2Co_5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 

This "new creature" (some versions say "new creation") is where?  "In Christ Jesus" - not in you.  Have all things become new in you?  No!  You are still a sinner falling short of the glory of God and you are still mortal.  The only change in the believer is in the heart (mind).  His mind has been renewed by the presence of the Holy Spirit residing in his spirit. 

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https://www.christforums.org/topic/4713-do-christians-quotgo-to-heavenquot-when-they-die/?tab=comments#comment-23330

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Just now, Two Adams said:

This "new creature" (some versions say "new creation") is where?  "In Christ Jesus" - not in you.  Have all things become new in you?  No!  You are still a sinner falling short of the glory of God and you are still mortal.  The only change in the believer is in the heart (mind).  His mind has been renewed by the presence of the Holy Spirit residing in his spirit. 

Maybe a study on His Wonderful Grace would be helpful. Can God only transform a dead body? 

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2 minutes ago, Becky said:

Maybe a study on His Wonderful Grace would be helpful. Can God only transform a dead body? 

Sanctification, as wonderful as it is, is not perfection.  So still, at the end of a day, technically we are falling short of God's agape love and are therefore sinners.  Sin and sinners cannot be taken to heaven (body, soul and spirit).  Hence "flesh and blood" cannot inherit heaven.  We must be changed into His image and receive our "new creation" residing "in Christ".  This clearly occurs at the 2nd coming. 

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15 minutes ago, Two Adams said:

If the spirit of man goes to heaven at death then something in us is holy and righteous, but the converted Apostle Paul said, "I know in me dwells nothing good."

 

Furthermore, nothing need go to heaven at the death of the believer because he already has a "new creation" in Christ Jesus in the heavenly places. 

When we read Romans 7:18 by the whole verse we can see that it's in the flesh there is no good. Our spirit is judged by God according to Christ works.

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8 minutes ago, Faber said:

I only have one question:  What part of the believer is naturally holy and righteous that it can skip the resurrection were God actually recreates us in His image and holiness?

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The part that is in Christ.

 

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2 minutes ago, Innerfire89 said:

When we read Romans 7:18 by the whole verse we can see that it's in the flesh there is no good. Our spirit is judged by God according to Christ works.

There's nothing good in our flesh - that is, our fallen humanity.  This includes the whole man.  Otherwise we are presenting legalism. 

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1 minute ago, Becky said:

The part that is in Christ.

 

Right, and you and I are here.  We are children of Adam, fallen and sinful. The difference between the unbeliever and the believer is the latter doesn't condone and practice sin as a lifestyle.  He repents.  But "in Christ" we have a "new creation".  Paul talks about this in Col 1:21,22

 

"And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled  in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith"

 

Where are you "holy and blameless"? "In Christ" and He is in heaven presenting you, the believer, literally perfect in Himself.

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Luke 23:42-42

(42) And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!”
(43) And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.” (NASB)

 

The Lord Jesus was able to assure one of the men that was crucified next to Him that he would be with Him "today" in heaven.

A.T. Robertson: He promises him immediate and conscious fellowship after death with Christ in Paradise which is a Persian word and is used here not for any supposed intermediate state; but the very bliss of heaven itself.

http://www.godrules.net/library/robert/robertluk23.htm

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Only by His Blood

 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Faber said:

Luke 23:42-42

(42) And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!”
(43) And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.” (NASB)

 

The Lord Jesus was able to assure one of the men that was crucified next to Him that he would be with Him "today" in Paradise (Luke 23:43).

A.T. Robertson: He promises him immediate and conscious fellowship after death with Christ in Paradise.

http://www.godrules.net/library/robert/robertluk23.htm

Then there's something in us naturally holy and righteous.  You're presenting a form of legalism  - that is,  another gospel.

Edited by Two Adams

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1 minute ago, Two Adams said:

Right, and you and I are here.  We are children of Adam, fallen and sinful. The difference between the unbeliever and the believer is the latter doesn't condone and practice sin as a lifestyle.  He repents.  But "in Christ" we have a "new creation".  Paul talks about this in Col 1:21,22

 

"And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled  in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith"

 

Where are you "holy and blameless"? "In Christ" and He is in heaven presenting you, the believer, literally perfect in Himself.

Heb_9:26  For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 
 

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Just now, Becky said:

Heb_9:26  For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 
 

Your point?

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1 minute ago, Two Adams said:

The there's something is us naturally holy and righteous.  You're presenting a form of legalism  - that is,  another gospel.

Luke 23:42-43 refutes your false assertion.

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5 minutes ago, Two Adams said:

Right, and you and I are here.  We are children of Adam, fallen and sinful. The difference between the unbeliever and the believer is the latter doesn't condone and practice sin as a lifestyle.  He repents.  But "in Christ" we have a "new creation".  Paul talks about this in Col 1:21,22

 

"And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled  in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith"

 

Where are you "holy and blameless"? "In Christ" and He is in heaven presenting you, the believer, literally perfect in Himself.

  My point ... I click the wrong quote..

 

 Heb_9:26  For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 

 

To my way of understanding your view denies the Power of His Sacrifice.
 

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1 minute ago, Faber said:

Luke 23:42-43 refutes your false assertion.

No it does not!  Both thieves had their legs broken before the Sabbath so they couldn't run away.  Only Christ died late Friday afternoon and clearly He told Mary (after the resurrection) that He had not ascended to the Father in heaven.  

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Just now, Two Adams said:

No it does not!  Both thieves had their legs broken before the Sabbath so they couldn't run away.  Only Christ died late Friday afternoon and clearly He told Mary (after the resurrection) that He had not ascended to the Father in heaven.  

You are confusing the timing of this event.

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2 minutes ago, Becky said:

  My point ... I click the wrong quote..

 

 Heb_9:26  For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 

 

To my way of understanding your view denies the Power of His Sacrifice.
 

I don't follow you.  Are you saying we are without sin?

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Just now, Faber said:

You are confusing the timing of this event.

Not at all.

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