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reformed baptist

Something you should now about 'free will'

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Luther once wrote:

 

"If all men have “free will” and yet all without exception are under God’s wrath, then it follows that “free will” leads them in only one direction—“ungodliness and unrighteousness” (i.e., wickedness). So where is the power of “free will” helping them to do good? If “free will” exists, it does not seem to be able to help men to salvation because it still leaves them under the wrath of God.”

― Martin Luther, The Bondage of the Will

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Reformed Baptist. I understand your thinking and point on Free Will and how Calvinism teaches. Here is something I would like to just explain from my Biblical view point. It makes no real significant difference in the end of our lives if we don't agree on this area of Free Will. The real important issue is we are bothers in Jesus Christ. I am reminded of John 13:34,35. How do Christians that do not agree on a Theological issue, still love each other? For me I don't see my Brothers and Sisters in Jesus Christ as belong to the Arminiamism or Calvinism view point, I see them as Followers of Our Lord God Almighty and His So, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

 

Reformed Baptist, when we are both together, in front of the Lord face to face before Him I doubt we will even care which side of this issue will thought was right. I can honestly say Brother Reformed Baptist , you are a very dear brother, we just see Free Will differently, but we both see Jesus Christ the very same way.

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I can honestly say Brother Reformed Baptist , you are a very dear brother, we just see Free Will differently, but we both see Jesus Christ the very same way.

 

But that is the thing brother - if we disagree on this issue it is actually a disagreement about the person, work and nature of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am not making it a salvation issue - as a Calvinist I believe we are saved despite what we don't know, not because of what we do know - but a disagreement on free will is a disagreement on the nature of the atonement, the love of Jesus Christ and the sovereignty of Jesus Christ.

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I can honestly say Brother Reformed Baptist , you are a very dear brother, we just see Free Will differently, but we both see Jesus Christ the very same way.

 

But that is the thing brother - if we disagree on this issue it is actually a disagreement about the person, work and nature of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am not making it a salvation issue - as a Calvinist I believe we are saved despite what we don't know, not because of what we do know - but a disagreement on free will is a disagreement on the nature of the atonement, the love of Jesus Christ and the sovereignty of Jesus Christ.

"A new commandment I give you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." John 13:34,35. NASB

 

I am positive that all who become Followers of Jesus Christ took Jesus Christ at His word that "Whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." There is no other way but by Jesus Christ that we are saved. How many millions have been saved and died, and gone to Jesus Christ, never ever hearing of Calvinism or Arminianism? I doubt the nature of the Atonement of our Dear Lord Jesus Christ and His Sovereignty was doubted for even one second.

 

I have come to the point in my life where I make the choice to love and respect, than to argue. I thought perhaps my attempt to bridge a gap with you was possible. That was my only intention. I will leave it at that. God bless.

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Just Mike - please try and respond to what I am actually saying - it makes conversation much more beneficial :RpS_flapper:

 

I am positive that all who become Followers of Jesus Christ took Jesus Christ at His word that "Whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

 

I'm sure they did too - but it is entirely irrelevant to the point I am making - as indeed are all your objections which amount to little mere then dumbing the gospel down to a simple point that we can all agree on!

 

How many millions have been saved and died, and gone to Jesus Christ, never ever hearing of Calvinism or Arminianism?

 

Again, so what - it doesn't matter what name you give it!

 

I doubt the nature of the Atonement of our Dear Lord Jesus Christ and His Sovereignty was doubted for even one second

 

Again, I am sure what was believed by those people was firmly believed - but the Bible present a penal substitionairy atonement that achieves the salvation of the elect - to say "Jesus died to make salvation possible for all," is to change the nature the atonement and the intend of God!

 

However, the truth is my friend - whilst these are all important points to discuss - not a single one of them in relevant to OP - which is quote about free will.

 

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Just Mike - please try and respond to what I am actually saying - it makes conversation much more beneficial :RpS_flapper:

 

I am positive that all who become Followers of Jesus Christ took Jesus Christ at His word that "Whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

 

I'm sure they did too - but it is entirely irrelevant to the point I am making - as indeed are all your objections which amount to little mere then dumbing the gospel down to a simple point that we can all agree on!

 

How many millions have been saved and died, and gone to Jesus Christ, never ever hearing of Calvinism or Arminianism?

 

Again, so what - it doesn't matter what name you give it!

 

I doubt the nature of the Atonement of our Dear Lord Jesus Christ and His Sovereignty was doubted for even one second

 

Again, I am sure what was believed by those people was firmly believed - but the Bible present a penal substitionairy atonement that achieves the salvation of the elect - to say "Jesus died to make salvation possible for all," is to change the nature the atonement and the intend of God!

 

However, the truth is my friend - whilst these are all important points to discuss - not a single one of them in relevant to OP - which is quote about free will.

You have the last word, so be it.

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Luther once wrote:

 

"If all men have “free will” and yet all without exception are under God’s wrath, then it follows that “free will” leads them in only one direction—“ungodliness and unrighteousness” (i.e., wickedness). So where is the power of “free will” helping them to do good? If “free will” exists, it does not seem to be able to help men to salvation because it still leaves them under the wrath of God.”

― Martin Luther, The Bondage of the Will

Perhaps free will is the illusion we're under. The scriptures tell us all things are predestined, which would mean, preordained, pre-ordered, by God's will and for his glory.And when God is the source of all things, the creator, the first cause, and God , the holy spirit, is also omniscient, all knowing, it would be impossible for us to possess the capacity to decide anything outside of his control or awareness.

Ergo, it is all a game. And we're simply walking in the footsteps God predetermined for us to follow.

After all, why didn't God destroy Satan and 1/3rd of those angels that followed him after they lost the war in Heaven?

Instead, God cast them down to the newly formed earth. Where the first humans would be created to dwell inside a paradise accessible to Satan. Who slithered up a tree God planted with what he told Adam was forbidden fruit. Omnipresence, as God is also, would have watched the whole thing unfold.

Let the games begin.

 

 

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Adam ate of his Free Will. Cane killed Able out of his free will. You and I make choices each day out of our free will. God knows what we will do, His for knowledge.

 

I know there is the different side of this. However I believe I am a 3rd Calvinists. I an not going to disrespect anyone who thinks otherwise, and I hope I receive the same respect back.

 

Here is what I do know when I became a Follower of Jesus Christ, I put my life in His hands. I asked Him to take my life and use it where even He wants. I trust Him completely, I will follow Him where ever he wants me to go. Believe me, that right now I am trusting Him day by day as never before. With my latest diagnosis of bone cancer, my faith In Jesus Christ has never been stronger, nor my desire to please Him more. Its one thing to say I believe, or will follow Him, its altogether differently in doing it. Talk is so easy and cheap, finishing life well takes love and obediance in a Jesus that so loves us that He paoid the price for our sins no matter how small we think they are. In truth each sin took Jesus to die on a bloody Cross for that lie.

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Adam ate of his Free Will. Cane killed Able out of his free will.

 

Kinds of supports the OP doesn't it?

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I don't think this discussion can be twisted into something it is not , unless someone imparts through implication that their opinion on the topic is because their a follower of Christ. Therein implying those who have a different opinion or observation of free will , are not.

This is a Christian site. We're all presumed to be in the Lord. Little jabs aren't necessary nor are they reflecting a civil tone to proceed.

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I don't think this discussion can be twisted into something it is not , unless someone imparts through implication that their opinion on the topic is because their a follower of Christ. Therein implying those who have a different opinion or observation of free will , are not.

This is a Christian site. We're all presumed to be in the Lord. Little jabs aren't necessary nor are they reflecting a civil tone to proceed.

I don't think anyone has implied that - but I'm sorry it comes across that way to you

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I don't think this discussion can be twisted into something it is not , unless someone imparts through implication that their opinion on the topic is because their a follower of Christ. Therein implying those who have a different opinion or observation of free will , are not.

This is a Christian site. We're all presumed to be in the Lord. Little jabs aren't necessary nor are they reflecting a civil tone to proceed.

Reformed Baptist. My reading of your post's has surely seemed that way to me. I prefer to let you say what you will and ignore it. I tried three times to quote John 13:34,35. and I was stunned by your response. Frankly I made the choice to try and let Christian love end the dialogue.

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I don't think this discussion can be twisted into something it is not , unless someone imparts through implication that their opinion on the topic is because their a follower of Christ. Therein implying those who have a different opinion or observation of free will , are not.

This is a Christian site. We're all presumed to be in the Lord. Little jabs aren't necessary nor are they reflecting a civil tone to proceed.

You didn't choose to ignore my post - you responded with this:

 

Reformed Baptist. I understand your thinking and point on Free Will how Calvinism teaches. Here is something I would like to just explain from my Biblical view point.

 

It seems brother you want the right to disagree with me (and even imply my position is unbiblical) - but you don't want me to have the right to respond to your words. If I do respond I am 'disrespecting you' and not speaking in 'love' - I am truly sorry you feel that way but the simple truth is I can assure you that I haven't written anything with the intention to lack respect or love towards you.

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Posted (edited)

Reformed Baptist. This does not honor Christ to keep going over it again and again. Its one thing to disagree, but being disagreeable is altogether wrong. I don't care if you are Calvinistic or whatever but unless respect and brother Christian love is at the core it is meaningless. Christians for hundreds of years have debated Calvinism and still were close friends in Jesus Christ. That seems difficult for you. Lets let this go I just no longer have the time for this to continue on. Pleace.

Edited by Just Mike
spelling error

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Posted (edited)
Reformed Baptist. This does not honor Christ to keep going over it again and again. Its one thing to disagree, but being disagreeable is altogether wrong. I don't care if you are Calvinistic or whatever but unless respect and brother Christian love is at the core it is meaningless. Christians for hundreds of years have debated Calvinism and still were close friends in Jesus Christ. That seems difficult for you. Lets let this go I just no longer have the time for this to continue on. Pleace.

 

Nothing I would love more then seeing this thread get back on topic - but that is up to you brother, your the one pursuing me here and you have been since post #2 - with all due respect you need to let it go! Your first post of this thread was not relevant to a word of that quote it was instead a claim that I am being unbiblical and unloving in posting it :RpS_thumbdn:

Edited by reformed baptist

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Reformed Baptist, I sent you back a response to your private message to me. If you don't get it please let me know. Peace and brotherly love in Christ Jesus.

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In early Methodism, both John Wesley (Arminian) and George Whitefield (Calvinist) achieved great success preaching in the open to great crowds and had many converts.

 

Calvinistic Methodists were born out of the Methodist Revival in 18th-century Wales and survive as a body of Christians now forming the Presbyterian Church of Wales.[1] Calvinistic Methodism became a major denomination in Wales, growing rapidly in the 19th century, and taking a leadership role in the Welsh Religious Revival of 1904-5.[2]

Calvinistic Methodism claims to be the only denomination in Wales to be of purely Welsh origin, owing no influence in its formation to Scottish Presbyterianism. It is also the only denomination to make use of the title Calvinistic (after John Calvin) in its name. In 18th-century England Calvinistic Methodism was represented by the followers of George Whitefield as opposed to those of John and Charles Wesley, although all the early Methodists in England and Wales worked together regardless of Calvinist or Arminian (or Wesleyan) theology, for many years.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinistic_Methodists

 

 

 

 

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