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Zuno_Yazh

The Everlasting Gospel

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†. Rev 14:6-7 . . And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, announcing with a loud voice: Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

 

The everlasting gospel is very elementary. Pretty much all it says is:

 

1• There's a supreme being.

 

2• He deserves respect.

 

3• There's a frightful reckoning looming on the horizon, and

 

4• The cosmos-- all of its forms of life, matter, and energy --is the product of intelligent design.

 

Of particular interest to me is the inclusion of water in the everlasting gospel. Scientists theorize the origin of the earth's amazing quantity of water without really knowing exactly where it came from, nor how it got here. Well; that is one of the things that I like about Genesis. It takes an essentially unsophisticated, uneducated blue-collar retiree like myself and gives him answers to questions that people much brighter, and better educated cannot answer.

 

Giving "glory" simply indicates giving someone credit where credit is due; and "worship" can be roughly defined as reverence, i.e. honor and respect.

 

It's quite natural to admire celebrities, pro athletes, and super achievers-- to give them credit where credit is due --but not quite so natural to do the same for their creator.

 

Anyway, point being: people either believe in intelligent design, or they don't. If they do believe, then they will admire both the designer's genius and His handiwork. If they don't believe; then they will neither admire nor respect anything about Him: simple as that.

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. Anyway, point being: people either believe in intelligent design, or they don't. If they do believe, then they will admire both the designer's genius and His handiwork. If they don't believe; then they will neither admire nor respect anything about Him: simple as that.

 

How does one make the huge leap from an intelligent designer to the God of the Bible?

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How does one make the huge leap from an intelligent designer to the God of the Bible?

 

 

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." (Gen 1:1)

 

"Ever since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-- his eternal power and divine nature --have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made. (Rom 1:20)

 

One of the aspects of God's eternal power and divine nature is His amazing IQ.

 

"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge." (Ps 19:1-2)

 

Paul goes on to say that people who don't believe the cosmos is the product of intelligent design have no excuse. He prefaced his remarks by saying:

 

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth" (Rom 1:18)

 

Well; I guess you know what that means for guys like Stephen Hawking and Neil deGrasse Tyson without my having to say so.

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"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." (Gen 1:1)

 

"Ever since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-- his eternal power and divine nature --have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made. (Rom 1:20)

 

One of the aspects of God's eternal power and divine nature is His amazing IQ.

 

"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge." (Ps 19:1-2)

 

Paul goes on to say that people who don't believe the cosmos is the product of intelligent design have no excuse. He prefaced his remarks by saying:

 

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth" (Rom 1:18)

 

Well; I guess you know what that means for guys like Stephen Hawking and Neil deGrasse Tyson without my having to say so.

 

You're making the same erroneous assumption that so many who advocate Intelligent design as an effective apologetic make - you assume it is a stepping straight to the one true God - however there are a myriad of religions and cults out there that have creation stories - why should a person look at creation, and know there is a God in heaven, and then choose Christianity - what is the bridge that leads from one to the other? To put that another way, why would a person accept the bible's description of the designer over the Quran's?

 

 

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To put that another way, why would a person accept the bible's description of the designer over the Quran's?

Because the Holy Spirit has regenerated them would be the answer for Christians. IMO The others are spiritually dead so I have little idea why they would do so.

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why would a person accept the bible's description of the designer over the Quran's?

 

 

There's an area on this site set up for Apologetics. Perhaps someone there can help you.

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There's an area on this site set up for Apologetics. Perhaps someone there can help you.

 

I'm asking you to bridge the gap that you left in your opening post of this thread

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To put that another way, why would a person accept the bible's description of the designer over the Quran's?

Because the Holy Spirit has regenerated them would be the answer for Christians. IMO The others are spiritually dead so I have little idea why they would do so.

Being 'reformed' I would agree :D

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†. Mark 16:15-17 . . Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

 

Q: What about the many millions of people in the past and the present who've never heard, nor ever will hear, the gospel? What's to become of them?

 

A: Well; if I understand that passage in Mark correctly, the onus is upon those who hear rather than upon those who have never heard. In point of fact, there are other passages in the Bible like Mark's saying pretty much the same thing.

 

In other words: in order to be condemned for disbelief, one must first be given some information to think about. Just because someone has yet to hear Jesus' gospel doesn't eo ipso make them an unbeliever. I'm pretty sure the condemnation mentioned in Mark 16:15-17 targets disbelievers; in other words: people who hear Jesus' gospel and blow it off.

 

But that doesn't let those millions off the hook because in the absence of Jesus' gospel, the everlasting gospel becomes the default. Everybody eventually hears the everlasting gospel because the cosmos-- all of its forms of life, matter, and energy --is everywhere 24/7/365.

 

†. Rom 1:19-20 . .What may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-- his eternal power and divine nature --have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

 

Q: If people can get saved by heeding the everlasting gospel, then why send out missionaries to every corner of the globe preaching Jesus' gospel?

 

A: Because not everyone everywhere believes what the cosmos is telling them. Those cases are an emergency because Jesus' gospel is their last resort, i.e. the final option.

 

I recently watched a movie on NetFlix called "Come Sunday" based upon the spiritual career of a Christian minister named Carlton D'metrius Pearson, DD. He underwent a crisis of faith due to pondering the fate of the millions of people in the world perishing in genocides, civil wars, and whatnot who never heard, nor ever would hear, Jesus' gospel. It seemed thoroughly unreasonable to him that a merciful, loving God would condemn so many uninformed people to an eternal destiny in hell just because they didn't believe in a Jesus about whom many of them likely knew nothing about.

 

Mr. Pearson's solution to the problem was to simply rule out an eternal hell by insisting that classical Christianity is interpreting the New Testament improperly.

 

Well; he attended Oral Roberts University and was mentored by Oral Roberts himself, so I'm pretty sure Mr. Pearson was aware of the everlasting gospel; but apparently he didn't know how to apply it. That's a remarkable shortcoming considering where he went to school, and who it was that mentored him.

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†. Mark 16:15-17 . . Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

 

Q: What about the many millions of people in the past and the present who've never heard, nor ever will hear, the gospel? What's to become of them?

 

A: Well; if I understand that passage in Mark correctly, the onus is upon those who hear rather than upon those who have never heard. In point of fact, there are other passages in the Bible like Mark's saying pretty much the same thing.

 

In other words: in order to be condemned for disbelief, one must first be given some information to think about. Just because someone has yet to hear Jesus' gospel doesn't eo ipso make them an unbeliever. I'm pretty sure the condemnation mentioned in Mark 16:15-17 targets disbelievers; in other words: people who hear Jesus' gospel and blow it off.

 

But that doesn't let those millions off the hook because in the absence of Jesus' gospel, the everlasting gospel becomes the default. Everybody eventually hears the everlasting gospel because the cosmos-- all of its forms of life, matter, and energy --is everywhere 24/7/365.

 

†. Rom 1:19-20 . .What may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-- his eternal power and divine nature --have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

 

Q: If people can get saved by heeding the everlasting gospel, then why send out missionaries to every corner of the globe preaching Jesus' gospel?

 

A: Because not everyone everywhere believes what the cosmos is telling them. Those cases are an emergency because Jesus' gospel is their last resort, i.e. the final option.

 

I recently watched a movie on NetFlix called "Come Sunday" based upon the spiritual career of a Christian minister named Carlton D'metrius Pearson, DD. He underwent a crisis of faith due to pondering the fate of the millions of people in the world perishing in genocides, civil wars, and whatnot who never heard, nor ever would hear, Jesus' gospel. It seemed thoroughly unreasonable to him that a merciful, loving God would condemn so many uninformed people to an eternal destiny in hell just because they didn't believe in a Jesus about whom many of them likely knew nothing about.

 

Mr. Pearson's solution to the problem was to simply rule out an eternal hell by insisting that classical Christianity is interpreting the New Testament improperly.

 

Well; he attended Oral Roberts University and was mentored by Oral Roberts himself, so I'm pretty sure Mr. Pearson was aware of the everlasting gospel; but apparently he didn't know how to apply it. That's a remarkable shortcoming considering where he went to school, and who it was that mentored him.

An interesting perception.

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"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." (Gen 1:1)

 

"Ever since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-- his eternal power and divine nature --have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made. (Rom 1:20)

 

One of the aspects of God's eternal power and divine nature is His amazing IQ.

 

"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge." (Ps 19:1-2)

 

Paul goes on to say that people who don't believe the cosmos is the product of intelligent design have no excuse. He prefaced his remarks by saying:

 

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth" (Rom 1:18)

 

Well; I guess you know what that means for guys like Stephen Hawking and Neil deGrasse Tyson without my having to say so.

 

You're making the same erroneous assumption that so many who advocate Intelligent design as an effective apologetic make - you assume it is a stepping straight to the one true God - however there are a myriad of religions and cults out there that have creation stories - why should a person look at creation, and know there is a God in heaven, and then choose Christianity - what is the bridge that leads from one to the other? To put that another way, why would a person accept the bible's description of the designer over the Quran's?

 

Because there is John 14:6 Jesus Christ is telling us that "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father, but by Me." There can be only One truth.

 

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created...." no one else.

 

And John 1:1-3 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word Was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him alll things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made. ..... In Him was life, and that life was the light of men."

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†. Mark 16:15-17 . . Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

 

Q: What about the many millions of people in the past and the present who've never heard, nor ever will hear, the gospel? What's to become of them?

 

A: Well; if I understand that passage in Mark correctly, the onus is upon those who hear rather than upon those who have never heard. In point of fact, there are other passages in the Bible like Mark's saying pretty much the same thing.

 

In other words: in order to be condemned for disbelief, one must first be given some information to think about. Just because someone has yet to hear Jesus' gospel doesn't eo ipso make them an unbeliever. I'm pretty sure the condemnation mentioned in Mark 16:15-17 targets disbelievers; in other words: people who hear Jesus' gospel and blow it off.

 

But that doesn't let those millions off the hook because in the absence of Jesus' gospel, the everlasting gospel becomes the default. Everybody eventually hears the everlasting gospel because the cosmos-- all of its forms of life, matter, and energy --is everywhere 24/7/365.

 

†. Rom 1:19-20 . .What may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-- his eternal power and divine nature --have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

 

Q: If people can get saved by heeding the everlasting gospel, then why send out missionaries to every corner of the globe preaching Jesus' gospel?

 

A: Because not everyone everywhere believes what the cosmos is telling them. Those cases are an emergency because Jesus' gospel is their last resort, i.e. the final option.

 

I recently watched a movie on NetFlix called "Come Sunday" based upon the spiritual career of a Christian minister named Carlton D'metrius Pearson, DD. He underwent a crisis of faith due to pondering the fate of the millions of people in the world perishing in genocides, civil wars, and whatnot who never heard, nor ever would hear, Jesus' gospel. It seemed thoroughly unreasonable to him that a merciful, loving God would condemn so many uninformed people to an eternal destiny in hell just because they didn't believe in a Jesus about whom many of them likely knew nothing about.

 

Mr. Pearson's solution to the problem was to simply rule out an eternal hell by insisting that classical Christianity is interpreting the New Testament improperly.

 

Well; he attended Oral Roberts University and was mentored by Oral Roberts himself, so I'm pretty sure Mr. Pearson was aware of the everlasting gospel; but apparently he didn't know how to apply it. That's a remarkable shortcoming considering where he went to school, and who it was that mentored him.

And, yes , there have been and continue to be multitudes of people 'out there' -- we think in terms of people in the darkest of Africa who haven't heard the Gospel. But there is Also the Holy Spirit guiding believers to all those geographical areas. We forget that this world is getting smaller and smaller. People go through groups drilling for water and sharing Gospel at the same time. Geographical areas that won't allow 'missionaries' to be there Will allow groups in to teach their people water purification / literacy / health care. And, as always, some Do accept salvation and some Don't.

 

So -- until all have had an opportunity to Hear and accept or reject. The person sitting next to us in church can be just as 'lost' as the person on the other side of the world.

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In other words: in order to be condemned for disbelief, one must first be given some information to think about. Just because someone has yet to hear Jesus' gospel doesn't eo ipso make them an unbeliever. I'm pretty sure the condemnation mentioned in Mark 16:15-17 targets disbelievers; in other words: people who hear Jesus' gospel and blow it off.

 

But that doesn't let those millions off the hook because in the absence of Jesus' gospel, the everlasting gospel becomes the default. Everybody eventually hears the everlasting gospel because the cosmos-- all of its forms of life, matter, and energy --is everywhere 24/7/365.

 

So you propose two ways of salvation:

 

(1) through faith in Jesus Christ

(2) through faith in the evidence of creation

 

My friend, I use this term cautiously, but this sounds heretical to me (I am not accusing you of heresy though I am seeking clarity). Jesus Christ says: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (Joh 14:6 NKJ) - the only way of salvation is through Jesus Christ. Creation is enough for us to realize there is God in heaven, but that isn't that Paul is saying in Romans 1, Paul is saying that everyone knows there is a God in heaven because creations declaration is so clear - however people suppress that knolwdge and choose to worship the created rather then the creator.

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Posted (edited)
Jesus Christ says: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

 

 

Jesus' statement applies to everyone-- regardless of age, race, or gender --not only everyone now, but all the way back to Adam.

 

His statement below also applies to everyone all the way back to Adam.

 

"I tell you the truth: no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. . . I tell you the truth: no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. . . You should not be surprised at my saying you must be born again." (John 3:3-7)

 

Note that the birth about which Jesus spoke isn't optional; it's a must: no exceptions-- regardless of age, race, or gender.

 

 

 

Edited by Zuno_Yazh

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Jesus' statement applies to everyone-- regardless of age, race, or gender --not only everyone now, but all the way back to Adam.

 

His statement below also applies to everyone all the way back to Adam.

 

"I tell you the truth: no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. . . I tell you the truth: no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. . . You should not be surprised at my saying you must be born again." (John 3:3-7)

 

Note that the birth about which Jesus spoke isn't optional; it's a must-- regardless of age, race, or gender..

 

Please answer the question - in your understanding is there a second way to be saved, i.e. can one be saved through what you term, 'the everlasting gospel,' without faith in Christ?

 

All I want is a 'yes' or a 'no' - then you can follow that answer up with your justification if you wish!

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in your understanding is there a second way to be saved, i.e. can one be saved through what you term, 'the everlasting gospel,' without faith in Christ?

 

 

See posts #8 and #10

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in your understanding is there a second way to be saved, i.e. can one be saved through what you term, 'the everlasting gospel,' without faith in Christ?

 

 

See posts #8 and #10

Your statements are not concise. Let me try to summarize what I think you are saying. I think you are saying that those that not heard the salvific gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4) are not disbelievers because they have no belief on the subject ... so, if those people belief that there is a God based on nature they are saved because they "believe" (have faith) in God's existence. Again, they have no opinion/unbelief in the salvific message and therefore are not accountable for disbelief. (due to ignorance as they don't know of Christ's death/resurrection)

 

So, regarding those who have never heard of Christ, you can saved by ignorance of Christ if you believe God exists. Hmmm.... so some might be saved before hearing the salvific message and after a person brings them the "salvific message" they may be condemned. So, logically I suppose, an evangelist should first ask the person that has never heard of Christ: "Do you believe in God". If the answers is "yes" then avoid discussion of Christ to avoid sending the person to hell (so to speak).

 

This is interesting stuff...new to me.

Aside: You are welcome to clarify my understanding of your position.

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That which 'Zuno_Yazh' is saying is that some people will observe nature and attribute the existence of sun, moon, stars, storms, the birth/death cycle of life as coming from a supernatural source and want to know more about it in a positive way. While Others will see the same things / choose to make up some 'god' and offer sacrifices of their children or whatever to appease the 'god' out of fear. And, in effect, they will be following something Other than the 'Godliness' that the other's are following.

 

Which is basically what Romans 1 is saying.

 

How does a person respond to whatever amount of "light" their circumstances allow them to 'see'.

 

Put two people in a car wreck -- one of them swears and screams at the circumstances and the other tries to calm the other person down by saying 'at least we're still alive' and help is coming. And swearing at the other driver isn't going to help any. So we do what we can to help each other.

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That which 'Zuno_Yazh' is saying is that some people will observe nature and attribute the existence of sun, moon, stars, storms, the birth/death cycle of life as coming from a supernatural source and want to know more about it in a positive way. While Others will see the same things / choose to make up some 'god' and offer sacrifices of their children or whatever to appease the 'god' out of fear. And, in effect, they will be following something Other than the 'Godliness' that the other's are following.

 

Which is basically what Romans 1 is saying.

 

How does a person respond to whatever amount of "light" their circumstances allow them to 'see'.

 

Put two people in a car wreck -- one of them swears and screams at the circumstances and the other tries to calm the other person down by saying 'at least we're still alive' and help is coming. And swearing at the other driver isn't going to help any. So we do what we can to help each other.

I was being a bit presumptive of what 'Zuno_Yazh' was saying, because I can't read his mind. I Should have said that My reaction to his comments suggest that .......

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you can saved by ignorance of Christ if you believe God exists.

 

 

There's more to the everlasting gospel than belief there's a supreme being. In point of fact, according to Jas 2:19, just believing there's a supreme being is a demon's level of belief.

 

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Posted (edited)

Most of the Bible teachers that I've listened to sincerely believe that Jesus' church will be completely gone from the Earth when the fourth chapter of Revelation begins coming to pass, viz: the era of the so-called great commission (a.k.a. the church age) will be over; there won't be any born-again, Spirit-empowered Christian evangelists left anywhere on Earth preaching Jesus' gospel, yet according to Rev 7:9-17, many thousands of people will be saved during the church's absence.

 

Edited by Zuno_Yazh

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That which 'Zuno_Yazh' is saying is that some people will observe nature and attribute the existence of sun, moon, stars, storms, the birth/death cycle of life as coming from a supernatural source and want to know more about it in a positive way. While Others will see the same things / choose to make up some 'god' and offer sacrifices of their children or whatever to appease the 'god' out of fear. And, in effect, they will be following something Other than the 'Godliness' that the other's are following.

 

Which is basically what Romans 1 is saying.

 

How does a person respond to whatever amount of "light" their circumstances allow them to 'see'.

 

Put two people in a car wreck -- one of them swears and screams at the circumstances and the other tries to calm the other person down by saying 'at least we're still alive' and help is coming. And swearing at the other driver isn't going to help any. So we do what we can to help each other.

@Sue D. that is what I assumed at first, but note statements like this:

 

If people can get saved by heeding the everlasting gospel, then why send out missionaries to every corner of the globe preaching Jesus' gospel?

 

he is clearly proposing that one can be saved by what he terms 'the everlasting gospel' apart from Christ.

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Most of the Bible teachers that I've listened to sincerely believe that Jesus' church will be completely gone from the Earth when the fourth chapter of Revelation begins coming to pass, viz: the era of the so-called great commission (a.k.a. the church age) will be over; there won't be any born-again, Spirit-empowered Christian evangelists left anywhere on Earth preaching Jesus' gospel, yet according to Rev 7:9-17, many thousands of people will be saved during the church's absence.

That's because you listen to the wrong teachers - maybe if you read some of the puritan and reformers and listened to better teaching you theology would be better?

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See posts #8 and #10

 

I asked for a straightforward answer - based on this statement alone (and your refusal to clarify) I will take it that the answer is yes you propose a model that involves at least two ways to be saved:

 

If people can get saved by heeding the everlasting gospel, then why send out missionaries to every corner of the globe preaching Jesus' gospel?

 

That, my friend, is what we call a heresy and as such it is a teaching that needs to be repented of - there is only one way to be saved and that is through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ alone, by the grace of God alone.

 

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Most of the Bible teachers that I've listened to sincerely believe that Jesus' church will be completely gone from the Earth when the fourth chapter of Revelation begins coming to pass, viz: the era of the so-called great commission (a.k.a. the church age) will be over; there won't be any born-again, Spirit-empowered Christian evangelists left anywhere on Earth preaching Jesus' gospel, yet according to Rev 7:9-17, many thousands of people will be saved during the church's absence.

@reformed baptist, Zuno said that they "sincerely believe". Is that decisive?

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