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William

Are you a broken record?

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I have to ask whether you learn other theological perspectives which differ from your own? If truth is our object do you agree that sometimes we must shift from one perspective to another in order to see if the truth can be viewed more abundantly or clearly? That is, we sometimes need to uproot ourselves and take another position. Are all perspectives equal or are some better aligned? How do you know your view is most truthful than others?

 

Here's my rant and reason on the whining board. I take great delight in watching or observing others grow in theology. This board has taken years of development, the categories and content for others to research. It is a learning board. But there are some that come onto the board, a year or so later and they're still ignorant to the terminology and theological camps etc which others belong. When they engage in discussion I muse, I now know why in academia 1st graders are not put into the same class room as 2nd year University students. The entire class will be held back if forced to repeatedly answer and explain the curriculum to that 1st grader.

 

How about learning people? I'm not suggesting that one always needs to leave permanently a theological camp behind, but I think it completely fruitful to learn other perspectives, especially if we ever attempt to shift another out of the "alternative" to orthodoxy. Information gathering mode is good!

 

Are you stuck in google search finding the same answers to questions you only know to ask? How can you break free from a mind that cannot ask a question or inquire more deeply than a 1st grader? I remember this was one of my greatest obstacles, my superficial knowledge in certain theological areas left me bound to idiots in my research. Ever notice how if you ask an idiotic question most often only idiots answer? There are such things as dumb questions.

 

So I'll leave my rant with a question. Are you a broken record always repeating the same thing over and over again, never learning anything new?

 

God bless,

William

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An interesting thought/ rant.

 

When I preach I preach to the gathered church - within the assembly there are young and old (3yrs - 90yrs currently) - some of them have been Christians longer then I have been alive and they now their bibles better then I do (others are unsaved). some are young in the faith and growing tremendously - others have been Christians for decades and show little growth - some are highly educated - some can barely read or write - yet I preach the same sermon to them all.

 

And whilst I find a certain frustration in those who just don't seem to grow - I have finally reached the conclusion that I am not Jesus! I can lead a horse to water, but I can't make it drink brother (and nor can you).

 

None of this is to say you shouldn't encourage people to learn and grow - I am like a broken record telling my people that - but that we need to accept that some never will (and that is between them and the Lord Jesus Christ)

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I admit I am theologically broken. The following (not my words) explains my dilemma:

 

 

Inductive reasoning starts with particular facts and moves toward a general truth to interpret particular facts.

Deductive reasoning uses a general truth to interpret particular facts.

 

No one ever comes to the Bible and simply begins by inductively studying a particular passage. Inductive Bible study leaders may give the impression that they are setting aside their prejudices and simply reading Scripture, but this is not really the case. Baptists tend to read the Bible as if it teaches adult-only baptism, noncharismatics as if it teaches that there is no longer an office of prophet, and Calvinists as if it teaches unconditional election. We all read expecting to find specific things.

 

In other words, we never see Scripture through completely fresh, unprejudiced eyes. We read particular passages in the light of what we already know-or think we know-of Scripture's general teaching. So we both deduce how to interpret particular Scriptures from our general knowledge of the whole of Scripture even as we inductively examine the particular parts of Scripture in order to reach general conclusions about the whole of it. It is never completely clear when we are doing the one task or the other. This delicate, back-and-forth dance that strives to get closer to the true meaning of Scripture is called "the hermeneutical spiral."

 

When systematic theology does its job well, it is well aware of this spiral, knowing that a system without parts and parts without a system are equally useless for Christian preaching, faith, and practice. We are not free to impose a system on Scripture (which would be a purely deductive approach), but we are at no greater liberty to assume, rather arrogantly, that we are the first to read the Bible just as it is at face value (which would be a purely inductive approach). Imposing a system on Scripture makes the Bible a slave of tradition, while assuming that we are the first to read it just as it is at face value renders Scripture a slave to unacknowledged personal prejudices.

 

Good systematic theologians, regardless of their differences, always strive to approach Scripture as students rather than as masters. They also seek to gather together whatever Scripture says anywhere on the same topic and thus interpret the particular parts in the light of the whole, even as they once again test their conclusions about the whole in the light of what they find in Scripture's particular parts-and so on. This dance never ends on this side of Glory.

 

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Perhaps one learning challenge for me is Calvinism. Knowing very little and some misinformation about Calvinism, I have been wrestling with Calvinism, and I openly admit my struggle Calvinism is really difficult for me. Here is what I think adds to the confusion there are 5 point, 4 and three point Calvinists, and then I find most Calvinists are Amillennialists, but then I read some are Postmillennialists. I get there are always some who differ in no matter of the Four views you take.

 

Bare in mind I was raised and taught in Seminary a different way of all this. So for this almost 73 year man to make such a change is not something I am willing to do unless I have taken time to fully grasp each of the five points. i may not be a five or a four ar a three pointer. The main issue so far I find difficult is "free will".

 

So William I don't know if I am a broken record or not, but keep in mind change happens very quickly for Fire, war, and earthquake, but spiritual change for me is done with prayer and studding the Word to convince me. So please bare with me.

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Perhaps one learning challenge for me is Calvinism. Knowing very little and some misinformation about Calvinism, I have been wrestling with Calvinism, and I openly admit my struggle Calvinism is really difficult for me. Here is what I think adds to the confusion there are 5 point, 4 and three point Calvinists, and then I find most Calvinists are Amillennialists, but then I read some are Postmillennialists. I get there are always some who differ in no matter of the Four views you take.

 

Bare in mind I was raised and taught in Seminary a different way of all this. So for this almost 73 year man to make such a change is not something I am willing to do unless I have taken time to fully grasp each of the five points. i may not be a five or a four ar a three pointer. The main issue so far I find difficult is "free will".

 

So William I don't know if I am a broken record or not, but keep in mind change happens very quickly for Fire, war, and earthquake, but spiritual change for me is done with prayer and studding the Word to convince me. So please bare with me.

 

You are a perfect example of someone learning. Semper Reformanda Latin for "the church must always be reformed". We are continually Reforming and are being Reformed according to the Word of God.

 

For me, Calvinism is simply a corrective lens. For someone like me which had distorted eye sight from other teaching Calvinism helped me see the true Gospel. What the Gospel systematically conveys.

 

I began with monergism, and that taken to its logical outcome arrived at Calvinism. Don't worry about eschatology at the moment Amillennialism ect for it is not considered essential soteriology. My recommendation, go back to the basics, understand the 5 Solas of the Protestant Reformation. And here, please review these videos. This is the best 3 part series I have come to which takes a person back in time to the most pivotal moments in church history: https://www.christforums.org/forum/e...y-of-calvinism

 

You will stand on the shoulders of giants, see and survey the most crucial moments for yourself in the catholic church's history. May this video lead you to deeper research. I used to send this video in dvd to all new members when this forum began, thankfully, NiceneCouncil provided the videos on Youtube.

 

God bless,

William

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Am I a broken record? Probably. I do learn about other theological viewpoints ( such as Calvinism and Traditional Anglicanism), but my beliefs are firmly entrenched in the Bible and the Lutheran Confessions, so if somebody wants to know my point of view, I'll quote the Bible and/ or the Confessions to back up my own point of view ( rather than the Westminster Confession of Faith or the Book of Common Prayer). My church is where I get my spiritual nourishment ( through " the preaching of the Word and the proper administration of the Sacraments" which is itself a quote, but no less true for the quoting) and my POV will reflect that of my parish. Like other Lutherans, there are certain things that I am quite content to leave as mysteries without trying to add some kind of humanistic reasoning to something that is far beyond the realms of human experience.

 

I dare not try to make things up on my own in regard to the things of God, so yes, I'll present quotations and my understanding of those quotations.

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Am I a broken record?

 

 

Um, I think I may be misunderstood here.

 

I have witnessed you explaining another person's theological POV better than they could articulate through it. Mind you, you did not hold to their view but you knew it through and through. What does that say about you? I'm not saying that you'll necessarily align with the Calvinism camp for example, but I think it not only courteous but fruitful to at least understand what you're rejecting.

 

I totally acknowledge what you have shared regarding leaving things to mystery rather than reason. I have come across that Lutheran position more than once on occasion. I have also met 3 point leaning Calvinist which are Lutheran. Sometimes less, they agree with 1 point or 2 simply because it aligns with Monergism. As for another example, for you to articulate through the differences between Luther's Predestination and the Reformed doctrine of Double Predestination is to be commended. I nor you, or anyone else here ought act the part of the Holy Spirit to convict a person of said doctrine. All we can do is provide the necessary resources for them to understand it. What I am trying to suggest is that we should at least know "why" we believe said doctrine. Reformed Baptist nailed it when he stated you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. That's my frustration. I'm tired of beating dead horses - therefore, my rant on the whining board.

 

439.gif.161a88bda0498099340f3a4a3c8e5995.gif

 

God bless,

William

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Um, I think I may be misunderstood here.

 

I have witnessed you explaining another person's theological POV better than they could articulate through it. Mind you, you did not hold to their view but you knew it through and through. What does that say about you? I'm not saying that you'll necessarily align with the Calvinism camp for example, but I think it not only courteous but fruitful to at least understand what you're rejecting.

 

I totally acknowledge what you have shared regarding leaving things to mystery rather than reason. I have come across that Lutheran position more than once on occasion. I have also met 3 point leaning Calvinist which are Lutheran. Sometimes less, they agree with 1 point or 2 simply because it aligns with Monergism. As for another example, for you to articulate through the differences between Luther's Predestination and the Reformed doctrine of Double Predestination is to be commended. I nor you, or anyone else here ought act the part of the Holy Spirit to convict a person of said doctrine. All we can do is provide the necessary resources for them to understand it. What I am trying to suggest is that we should at least know "why" we believe said doctrine. Reformed Baptist nailed it when he stated you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. That's my frustration. I'm tired of beating dead horses - therefore, my rant on the whining board.

 

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God bless,

William

 

Oh, okay. I think I understand what you're talking about, now. :RpS_smile: Thank you, by the way. It really is better to try to understand where your conversational partner's coming from and so to be able to have constructive discussions, hence all that studying ( speaking of which, I've still got those ELCEs to study for and I've not dedicated a minute toward studying yet today, so I'll see y'all around the boards later!).

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As long as I'm played at the right speed I'm alright. Lol.

 

It's always good to test yourself and learn what others actually believe.

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Perhaps one learning challenge for me is Calvinism. Knowing very little and some misinformation about Calvinism, I have been wrestling with Calvinism, and I openly admit my struggle Calvinism is really difficult for me. Here is what I think adds to the confusion there are 5 point, 4 and three point Calvinists, and then I find most Calvinists are Amillennialists, but then I read some are Postmillennialists. I get there are always some who differ in no matter of the Four views you take.

 

Bare in mind I was raised and taught in Seminary a different way of all this. So for this almost 73 year man to make such a change is not something I am willing to do unless I have taken time to fully grasp each of the five points. i may not be a five or a four ar a three pointer. The main issue so far I find difficult is "free will".

 

So William I don't know if I am a broken record or not, but keep in mind change happens very quickly for Fire, war, and earthquake, but spiritual change for me is done with prayer and studding the Word to convince me. So please bare with me.

There are people who claim to be 4 point or 3 point Calvinists - but to reject one conclusion is to reject them all (or at least to redefine them all) - however trying to grasp the 5 points is not the way to go about understanding Calvinism - you need to begin with the sovereignty of God - once that is grasped everything else falls into place my friend :D

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