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William

The Rapture Question

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“After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them [the dead] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever” (v. 17).

- 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

 

Believers are positioned in union with Christ. United to Him, we have died, we are raised, and we have ascended in the Spirit to heaven and are seated with Him in His rule (Ephesians 2:6). This is already true of the “inner man,” and it will someday be true of the “outer man” also. The future ascension of the saints into heaven is spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

 

This verse, however, has been used to teach a curious doctrine called “the Rapture,” which is less than 200 years old. To understand it, we have to look at four ways of understanding New Testament prophecy. The first way is called preterism. Preterism says that most of the predictions in the New Testament found their explicit fulfillment in the destruction of Jerusalem in a.d. 70 and in the fall of Rome. The preterist says that the principles still apply, but the events are past. Preterism was common among Reformed theologians a century ago and is experiencing a revival today.

 

Historicism, once the most common view, says that New Testament prophecy predicts all the major events of the gospel age. Historicists see the fall of Rome, the tyranny of the popes, the advance of Islam, and the rise of the Enlightenment all predicted in the book of Revelation. Now that Christianity has spread well beyond Europe, this Europe-centered approach has largely been abandoned.

 

Futurism, which is currently in favor in most churches, says that most New Testament prophecy concerns events immediately prior to the final return of Jesus Christ to the earth. For most futurists, the Great Tribulation spoken of in Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation does not refer to the fall of Jerusalem or to the continuing problems of the church in all ages, but is a period just prior to Christ’s return, usually of seven years in duration.

 

The Rapture doctrine says that Christ will “rapture” His saints from the earth before the outbreak of this seven-year tribulation, or at least before the last three-and-a-half years of it. Christ will not let His people go through these events. The problem with this popular opinion is not only that 1 Thessalonians 4 says nothing about such a tribulation as the context for the ascension of the saints, but also the fact that many Christians have suffered horribly in the past without being “raptured.”

 

Coram Deo

 

Where is your faith? Is it in the person and work of our Lord Jesus Christ, or is it in a hope that you will be “raptured” out of suffering? Remain confident in Christ’s ultimate triumph, remain willing to take up your cross daily and suffer for your king.

 

Source: https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devot...ture-question/

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Historicism, once the most common view, says that New Testament prophecy predicts all the major events of the gospel age. Historicists see the fall of Rome, the tyranny of the popes, the advance of Islam, and the rise of the Enlightenment all predicted in the book of Revelation. Now that Christianity has spread well beyond Europe, this Europe-centered approach has largely been abandoned.

 

Wonder how many years it will take to get past the "American-centered" approach?

 

God bless,

William

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Where is your faith? Is it in the person and work of our Lord Jesus Christ, or is it in a hope that you will be “raptured” out of suffering?

Both, but I could give up the second choice but not the first.

 

Aside: I miss Nolidad. He was our best dispensational scholar but he got banned *insert sadness here*

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Both, but I could give up the second choice but not the first.

 

Aside: I miss Nolidad. He was our best dispensational scholar but he got banned *insert sadness here*

 

Curiosity now has me. Why do you refer to Nolidad as a "scholar"?

 

God bless,

William

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Here's my philosophy 1 Corinthians, 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

 

Pre, mid, Post. I'm to dull to figure that out. By God's grace my name is in the Book should I croak tonight.

 

31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

 

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

 

33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

 

34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

 

35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

 

36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

 

37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

 

I seen testimonies of faithful men here. Stay strong my friends and walk with God.

 

In Christ

 

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Historicism, once the most common view, says that New Testament prophecy predicts all the major events of the gospel age. Historicists see the fall of Rome, the tyranny of the popes, the advance of Islam, and the rise of the Enlightenment all predicted in the book of Revelation. Now that Christianity has spread well beyond Europe, this Europe-centered approach has largely been abandoned.

 

Wonder how many years it will take to get past the "American-centered" approach?

 

God bless,

William

We are all products of our cultures I'm afraid!

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Where is your faith? Is it in the person and work of our Lord Jesus Christ, or is it in a hope that you will be “raptured” out of suffering?

Both, but I could give up the second choice but not the first.

 

Aside: I miss Nolidad. He was our best dispensational scholar but he got banned *insert sadness here*

woe there - what did I miss?

 

when did that happen?

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Both, but I could give up the second choice but not the first.

 

Aside: I miss Nolidad. He was our best dispensational scholar but he got banned *insert sadness here*

 

Curiosity now has me. Why do you refer to Nolidad as a "scholar"?

 

God bless,

William

Hmmm, rather than quibble about the meaning of scholar I will rephrase. Nolidad was the most knowable (IMO) on the subject of dispensationalism and a good communicator. I, being a mere laymen and somewhat mentally challenged as intelligence is not one of my gifts, would regard Nolidad's opinion with interest always.

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Where is your faith? Is it in the person and work of our Lord Jesus Christ, or is it in a hope that you will be “raptured” out of suffering?

Both, but I could give up the second choice but not the first.

 

Aside: I miss Nolidad. He was our best dispensational scholar but he got banned *insert sadness here*

Nolidad got banned twice. I enjoyed his posts. William has first hand knowledge.

 

Nolidad, IMO, was opinionated (not uncommon of this site... lol) and I thought quite knowledgable. (knowledge being a relative things, my lack there of making the standard for knowledgeable low)

 

He was something like you (IMO). Lots of ideas, answers, opinions. I found his demeanor to be polite and answers to be relevant to the topic.

 

It would have been interesting to see you and him debate a topic. I give you the skill advantage so I would bet on you but my theological persuasion would favor nolidad.

 

All IMO

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Historicism, once the most common view, says that New Testament prophecy predicts all the major events of the gospel age. Historicists see the fall of Rome, the tyranny of the popes, the advance of Islam, and the rise of the Enlightenment all predicted in the book of Revelation. Now that Christianity has spread well beyond Europe, this Europe-centered approach has largely been abandoned.

 

Wonder how many years it will take to get past the "American-centered" approach?

 

God bless,

William

Look at Daniel 9 and the 70-7's -- vs 27 -- one '7' is left -- in the middle of That 7 , he will put an end to sacrifice and offerings. .... And on a wing... he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is pouted out on him."

 

That one final '7' is still coming -- the 7 years of tribulation with the Great Tribulation taking place during the last 3 1/2 years.

 

It's Not a man-made 'theory' from John Darby -- it's Scripture.

 

We are in the time of the Gentiles now -- God Will deal with Israel / the Jews again during those last 7 years. They were His chosen people who chose to reject Him as their Messiah, there Are some Messianic Jews.

 

Why Should the Church / /born-again believers / those who accept Christ as their Messiah// have to endure the fate of the non-acceptors. That does not make sense.

 

And , yes, there has been a great deal of tribulation already in many parts of the world. We are told to expect that. Both because evil is alive and well on this earth and because those who Do take a stand For Christ Will endure tribulation.

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How many years was Christ's earthly ministry ?

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Where is your faith? Is it in the person and work of our Lord Jesus Christ, or is it in a hope that you will be “raptured” out of suffering?

Both, but I could give up the second choice but not the first.

 

Aside: I miss Nolidad. He was our best dispensational scholar but he got banned *insert sadness here*

I enjoyed 'crossing swords' with him - I'm sorry he isn't gone. I enjoy opinionated and articulate :D

 

But it isn't my place to question the staffs decisions so I'll just say I'm sorry he is gone and I can't give you the debate you would like :D

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We know it was about 3 1/2 years .. some where along in my years i wondered why His earthly ministry is ignored when looking at prophecy? any thoughts around here?

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How many years was Christ's earthly ministry ?

He was approximately 33 yrs of age at time of crucifixion, but He was both learning and teaching in the synogague when still a teenager. The baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist -- Matthew 3:16 , 17 "..... And a voice from heaven said ,'This is My Son, whom I love; and Him I am well pleased."

 

When Mary and Joseph were traveling and thought that Jesus was with them and turns out He wasn't --they searched for Him and He was found with the elders. And He told His mother that He was 'about His Father's business'.

 

Sounds like as soon as He was considered to be a 'man' by Jewish standards.

 

Maybe His 'official' time of ministry was only those few years before His crucifixion.

 

Just found another passage in Matthew 4 that says after He was tempted by satan in the desert and then heard that John had been put into prison and He returned to Galilee and the Capernaum which was located by the lake in Zebulon and Naphtali -- to fulfill what was said through the Prophet Isaiah and THEN Jesus began to preach "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." He calls His first disciples and beings to heal people.

 

The fact is that He was a young man.

 

So -- I'm agreeing with 'rb' -- I really thought there were dates / years mentioned. But the passages are going by events - not dates. Interesting.

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We know it was about 3 1/2 years .. some where along in my years i wondered why His earthly ministry is ignored when looking at prophecy? any thoughts around here?

 

Can you give me a scriptural reference for that please?

 

We guess that to be the case based on the number Passover feasts in the gospel accounts (so we know it was at least three years) but it could have been 5 years or 6 years - we just don't know! We have to careful of not assuming something - especially if we are going to try and tie it in the prophecy :D

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I have the same guesses as you do :)

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How many years was Christ's earthly ministry ?

we don't know how old Jesus was - Luke tells us Jesus was 'about 30' he could have been 28 or 32, and whilst we have a minimal time for his ministry (it could be longer) - we have to be careful here not to confuse tradition with fact - most likely Jesus was around 37 when he died (an AD33 Crucifixion and a 4BC birth) - but that is just my guess - scripture is silent on the matter!

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We know it was about 3 1/2 years .. some where along in my years i wondered why His earthly ministry is ignored when looking at prophecy? any thoughts around here?

Luke 3:23 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

 

23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

For what it's worth...

 

A chronology of Jesus aims to establish a timeline for the historical events of the life of Jesus. Scholars have correlated Jewish and Greco-Roman documents and astronomical calendars with the New Testament accounts to estimate dates for the major events in Jesus's life. Two approaches have been used to estimate the year of the birth of Jesus: one based on the accounts in the Gospels of his birth with reference to King Herod's reign, and the other by working backwards from his stated age of "about 30 years" when he began preaching. Most scholars, on this basis, assume a date of birth between 6 and 4 BC[1][2][3][4][5] with Saturday 17 April, 6 BC / 17.4.748 AUC / 29 Nisan 3755 HC being the most likely candidate.[6]

 

Three details have been used to estimate the year when Jesus began preaching: a mention of his age of "about 30 years" during "the fifteenth year" of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, another relating to the date of the building of the Temple in Jerusalem, and yet another concerning the death of John the Baptist.[7][8][9][10][11][12] Hence, scholars estimate that Jesus began preaching and gathering followers around AD 28–29. According to the three synoptic gospels Jesus continued preaching for at least one year, and according to John the Evangelist for three years.[7][9][13][14][15]

 

Four main approaches have been used to estimate the date of the crucifixion of Jesus. One uses non-Christian sources such as Josephus and Tacitus.[16][17] Another works backwards from the historically well-established trial of Apostle Paul in Achaea to estimate the date of Paul's conversion. Both approaches result in AD 36 as an upper bound to the crucifixion.[18][19][20] Thus, scholars generally agree that Jesus was crucified between AD 30 and AD 36.[9][18][21][22] Astronomical point estimates developed by Isaac Newton focus on the first day of Passover, either Friday 3 April 33 AD or Friday 7 April 30 AD / 7.4.783 AUC / 14 Nisan 3790 HC (Anno Mundi). Wikipedia

 

I'm not married to any of this since my only interest is that He is who he said He is, and that He came.

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Both, but I could give up the second choice but not the first.

 

Aside: I miss Nolidad. He was our best dispensational scholar but he got banned *insert sadness here*

 

Curiosity now has me. Why do you refer to Nolidad as a "scholar"?

 

God bless,

William

I just thought you referring to him as a scholar @Fastfredy0 was rather interesting as he on occasion tried to elevate himself by his experience/credentials giving what he said merit. And I consider a scholar as someone that at minimum holds a PHD. At least when I have referred to some that hold multiple degrees which are short of a PHD they refuse the title in respect of those who actually have PHDs.

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Both, but I could give up the second choice but not the first.

 

Aside: I miss Nolidad. He was our best dispensational scholar but he got banned *insert sadness here*

 

Curiosity now has me. Why do you refer to Nolidad as a "scholar"?

 

God bless,

William

Scholar per oxford dictionary: a specialist in a particular branch of study, especially the humanities; a distinguished academic

 

Nolidad's knowledge impressed me. He handled himself well in my opinion. I would bet he knew more theology than 99% of Christians but I admit this is a subjective opinion.

 

Aside: I also admire your (William's) knowledge of scripture.

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We know it was about 3 1/2 years .. some where along in my years i wondered why His earthly ministry is ignored when looking at prophecy? any thoughts around here?

that's all good - except for the three years, it should be a minimum of three years according to John - it could be longer as it is based on how many Passovers are mentioned.

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How many years was Christ's earthly ministry ?

My 2 cents worth ... I thought I heard that priests started their ministry at age 30 and thus, Jesus being a priest, he also started his ministry at 30 and that some thought his baptism was the cleaning that priests went through at the start of their ministry.

 

I also heard from our guide in Israel that the boys went to school till age 12 (maybe 13, I forget) and then the promising ones continued their studies to be priests. (Aside: I found it interesting that Jesus was a carpenter and thus the guide's story suggested that Jesus may not have been a promising student. When I made the observation it was met with silence. ) *end of ramblings*

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We know it was about 3 1/2 years .. some where along in my years i wondered why His earthly ministry is ignored when looking at prophecy? any thoughts around here?

@ islandrazor -- thanks for including the Luke 3:23 verse -- I knew I'd seen that somewhere -- couldn't locate it -- it's also in the older NIV.

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We know it was about 3 1/2 years .. some where along in my years i wondered why His earthly ministry is ignored when looking at prophecy? any thoughts around here?

 

Can you give me a scriptural reference for that please?

 

We guess that to be the case based on the number Passover feasts in the gospel accounts (so we know it was at least three years) but it could have been 5 years or 6 years - we just don't know! We have to careful of not assuming something - especially if we are going to try and tie it in the prophecy :D

@ Becky -- the only prophesy I'm aware of is about His future birth -- as Immanuel as found in Isaiah 7:14 -- follow-up in Matthew 1:18 - 23. That Mary would be a virgin -- conceived of the Holy Spirit.

 

There Is mention of Him as a young person going to the synogoge to learn and share His knowledge.

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