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GodIsMyJudge

Hi, everyone and peace!

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I was just wondering what the Protestant view is on the Book of Enoch, Enoch I, and Enoch II to be exact . I know you have many sects which vary , and not all hold the same opinion on everything.

But those here representing your particular denomination, what are your takes? Again hello, and God Bless!

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Oh now I understand. I most closely relate to Ethiopian Orthodox, I say this because there are no Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo churches where I live . I therefore practice my faith at home,communion with those of this faith and fellowship with those from other denominations. I spoke about Enoch in my opening hello, because Ethiopian Jews preserved his writings. I noticed many none Ethiopian Orthodox Christians have began much study concerning his writings and have sought Ethiopians concerning this. Of denominations who have , they have most closely related to those of varying Protestant sects, and yes, some other. But after the silence I received at my greeting, and reading others, I decided to investigate all your different sects views and I now understand the silence. It must be only those interested in Israel and in prophecy who do, not saying you do not , but just not as fervently as some . I have noticed those who call themselves Messianic are not all Jews, many profess Protestant fathers and mix their belief with Rabbinical Law. That is why I thought some here would be up to discussion. I hope I have not insulted anyone's sensitivities. It is hard to find real Ethiopian Orthodox forums . Much of it here you find, has been absorbed into Catholicism. Though Susenyos tried to make Catholicism the state religion in Ethiopia ,in 1632

he had to abdicate . Even with this , much of western orthodox which says it is Ethiopian is not.

 

And now I get why the "You have been banned for believing in a false prophet "flashed momentarily when I logged in. I was baffled at first. So I looked up some Protestant views concerning the Books of Enoch, they state they are not from him ,this concerning what they have researched of him but no proof against Ethiopian text. Perhaps what you have received is not but, what we have is. I wish not to offend you and will avoid the discussion here concerning one of our prized prophets. I was just hoping to share how he is one of the Witnesses of Revelation. And how the first Woe of Rev.12 is at hand, according to prophecy. I apologize for any wrong assumption about those of you of this forum. I now realize this is not up for discussion. But let me be clear I follow no false prophet. Peace in Christ.

Edited by GodIsMyJudge

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Well I can't speak for all 900 million Protestants but since I am a born again Christian chosen before the foundation of the world by God the Father to be in Christ I will speak for myself. I have been saved for over 43 years and I have heard of the Books of Enoch. In my research of those books however I have discovered that only Ethiopian Jews (Beta Israel) and the Ethiopian Orthodox Church consider the Books of Enoch to be inspired. While some Protestant Christian denominations may accept the Books of Enoch as having some historical or theological interest, they generally regard the Books of Enoch as non-canonical and/or non-inspired. Personally, I believe that these historical books are good reading but either reading them or not reading them will affect my relationship with God one way or the other unlike the inspired texts which lead us to a more excellent understanding of our God's will for our lives.

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There Are many books that the RCC Bible includes and the other Bibles don't. They are referred to as the Aprocraphal books. The books of Enoch and Macabees are amongst them. And, yes, there Is a lot of history in them, but also contain non-Scriptural information that contradicts the other books.

 

One of the beliefs included in those books, is that of purgatory. And That belief is contradicted by the rest of Scripture.

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There Are many books that the RCC Bible includes and the other Bibles don't. They are referred to as the Aprocraphal books. The books of Enoch and Macabees are amongst them. And, yes, there Is a lot of history in them, but also contain non-Scriptural information that contradicts the other books.

 

One of the beliefs included in those books, is that of purgatory. And That belief is contradicted by the rest of Scripture.

Re: Post #1 -- the RCC church is the only group that includes those extra books. My thought is that there's plenty to learn in the 66 books that Are inspired -- so I don't concern myself with the other books. They Are 'there' for anyone To read who wants to. Good to see you back.

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There Are many books that the RCC Bible includes and the other Bibles don't. They are referred to as the Aprocraphal books. The books of Enoch and Macabees are amongst them. And, yes, there Is a lot of history in them, but also contain non-Scriptural information that contradicts the other books.

 

One of the beliefs included in those books, is that of purgatory. And That belief is contradicted by the rest of Scripture.

 

Here are two other non-biblical teaching of the deuterocanonical books. Salvation by works such as found Tobit 12:9 which states "For almsgiving [works] saves one from death and expiates [removes] every sin.” Another is prayers for the dead as found in 2 Maccabees 12:39–46,"It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. The Roman Catholic Church did not officially canonize the Apocrypha until the Council of Trent (1546 AD). This was in part because the Apocrypha contained material which supported certain Catholic doctrines, such as purgatory, praying for the dead, and the treasury of merit all of which are un-biblical doctrines which smell like smoke.

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Oh now I understand. I most closely relate to Ethiopian Orthodox, I say this because there are no Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo churches where I live . I therefore practice my faith at home,communion with those of this faith and fellowship with those from other denominations. I spoke about Enoch in my opening hello, because Ethiopian Jews preserved his writings. I noticed many none Ethiopian Orthodox Christians have began much study concerning his writings and have sought Ethiopians concerning this. Of denominations who have , they have most closely related to those of varying Protestant sects, and yes, some other. But after the silence I received at my greeting, and reading others, I decided to investigate all your different sects views and I now understand the silence. It must be only those interested in Israel and in prophecy who do, not saying you do not , but just not as fervently as some . I have noticed those who call themselves Messianic are not all Jews, many profess Protestant fathers and mix their belief with Rabbinical Law. That is why I thought some here would be up to discussion. I hope I have not insulted anyone's sensitivities. It is hard to find real Ethiopian Orthodox forums . Much of it here you find, has been absorbed into Catholicism. Though Susenyos tried to make Catholicism the state religion in Ethiopia ,in 1632

he had to abdicate . Even with this , much of western orthodox which says it is Ethiopian is not.

 

And now I get why the "You have been banned for believing in a false prophet "flashed momentarily when I logged in. I was baffled at first. So I looked up some Protestant views concerning the Books of Enoch, they state they are not from him ,this concerning what they have researched of him but no proof against Ethiopian text. Perhaps what you have received is not but, what we have is. I wish not to offend you and will avoid the discussion here concerning one of our prized prophets. I was just hoping to share how he is one of the Witnesses of Revelation. And how the first Woe of Rev.12 is at hand, according to prophecy. I apologize for any wrong assumption about those of you of this forum. I now realize this is not up for discussion. But let me be clear I follow no false prophet. Peace in Christ.

Hi -- good to see you're back -- out of all the church belief groups I've heard of over the years -- Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church is a new one. I'll look that up.

 

The 'woes' in Revelation -- ch 11:14 "The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly."

 

Your comment about the 1st woe being in ch 12? The word 'woe' is used in verse 12 "Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell n them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."

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Oh now I understand. I most closely relate to Ethiopian Orthodox, I say this because there are no Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo churches where I live . I therefore practice my faith at home,communion with those of this faith and fellowship with those from other denominations. I spoke about Enoch in my opening hello, because Ethiopian Jews preserved his writings. I noticed many none Ethiopian Orthodox Christians have began much study concerning his writings and have sought Ethiopians concerning this. Of denominations who have , they have most closely related to those of varying Protestant sects, and yes, some other. But after the silence I received at my greeting, and reading others, I decided to investigate all your different sects views and I now understand the silence. It must be only those interested in Israel and in prophecy who do, not saying you do not , but just not as fervently as some . I have noticed those who call themselves Messianic are not all Jews, many profess Protestant fathers and mix their belief with Rabbinical Law. That is why I thought some here would be up to discussion. I hope I have not insulted anyone's sensitivities. It is hard to find real Ethiopian Orthodox forums . Much of it here you find, has been absorbed into Catholicism. Though Susenyos tried to make Catholicism the state religion in Ethiopia ,in 1632

he had to abdicate . Even with this , much of western orthodox which says it is Ethiopian is not.

 

And now I get why the "You have been banned for believing in a false prophet "flashed momentarily when I logged in. I was baffled at first. So I looked up some Protestant views concerning the Books of Enoch, they state they are not from him ,this concerning what they have researched of him but no proof against Ethiopian text. Perhaps what you have received is not but, what we have is. I wish not to offend you and will avoid the discussion here concerning one of our prized prophets. I was just hoping to share how he is one of the Witnesses of Revelation. And how the first Woe of Rev.12 is at hand, according to prophecy. I apologize for any wrong assumption about those of you of this forum. I now realize this is not up for discussion. But let me be clear I follow no false prophet. Peace in Christ.

How did you get connected with that particular church group? There apparently are two churches of that type in Central Texas.

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I was just wondering what the Protestant view is on the Book of Enoch, Enoch I, and Enoch II to be exact . I know you have many sects which vary , and not all hold the same opinion on everything.

But those here representing your particular denomination, what are your takes? Again hello, and God Bless!

 

i'm not sure I officially represent any particular denomination, however generally speaking the books of Enoch are considered interesting reading and historical documents of great value. However they are considered 'scripture' for the simple reason that the Jews didn't consider them scripture and that they are not consistent in teaching within those books is not entirely consistent with the rest of scripture - the possible reference in Jude not withstanding, they are not quote ever in the NT as scripture.

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Well I can't speak for all 900 million Protestants but since I am a born again Christian chosen before the foundation of the world by God the Father to be in Christ I will speak for myself. I have been saved for over 43 years and I have heard of the Books of Enoch. In my research of those books however I have discovered that only Ethiopian Jews (Beta Israel) and the Ethiopian Orthodox Church consider the Books of Enoch to be inspired. While some Protestant Christian denominations may accept the Books of Enoch as having some historical or theological interest, they generally regard the Books of Enoch as non-canonical and/or non-inspired. Personally, I believe that these historical books are good reading but either reading them or not reading them will affect my relationship with God one way or the other unlike the inspired texts which lead us to a more excellent understanding of our God's will for our lives.

 

Well, no you can not speak for all 900 million Protestants in the world.......and if that means anything to God. God is about quality not quantity. I have not stopped by here in a while, but when I did and saw this arrogant post , I could not resist sharing the gospel.

As for predestination , that is for God to know and one to find out. Yes Election takes place through one choosing to follow, but ones end only God knows for sure........ most important thing is humility, that is the sure way to run your race and win. The lack of humility in your post is very telling.

 

The Tongue's Answer is from the Lord Proverbs 16:17-18

…17The highway of the upright is to depart from evil; He who watches his way preserves his life. 18Pride goes before destruction, And a haughty spirit before stumbling. 19It is better to be humble in spirit with the lowly Than to divide the spoil with the proud.…

 

And we must never forget Judas, though called and elected failed! The point is humility, this the sure way that we remain in Christ.

1Peter 5:6

 

6Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, so that in due time He may exalt you.…

 

It seems you forget this and exalt yourself. Mother Miriam didn't even do this, and she was blessed among all. You could learn from her humility.

 

Now, as for Beta and Alpha, that too God decides and is also determined by humility toward God not ethnicity. And it is a people who are not a people whom God shall call His beloved actually, and this to teach Israel.

 

God's Mercy to Israel Hosea 2:22-23

…22And the earth will respond to the grain, to the new wine and to the oil, And they will respond to Jezreel. 23"I will sow her for Myself in the land. I will also have compassion on her who had not obtained compassion, And I will say to those who were not My people, 'You are My people!' And they will say, 'You are my God!'"

 

The Living Stone 1Peter 2:9-11

…9But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. 10Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. 11Beloved, I urge you as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from the desires of the flesh, which war against your soul.…

 

The point is all gentiles were not a people and are now, so you should be grateful that you as a gentile are called Beloved, you who are actually what you call"Beta" have been given the grace to know the One True God of Israel.

 

As for non-canonical, that is what Protestants have learned through the RCC. It is funny how you Protestants call the RCC the Harlot, but when convenient toss about non- canonical this or that. And I highly doubt, that someone with such arrogance concerning salvation -would know if Writings of Enoch are this or that. The bottom line is ancient Hebrews read and studied from the Books of Enoch, this way before the RCC or Protestants called them anything. Also, it is disingenuous for anyone to say that Jews did not study the book of Enoch, more correctly put is, not all Jews did. And at present, Christian Jews do and value these works as sacred.

I choose to hear what the Spirit says to the Churches than to presume anyone Beta or less. It is the Spirit of God which proves one as anything, not you. In case you have overlooked, in the Revelation Christ is speaking to all the churches not just some. You assume a lot about yourself and others, this speaks volumes perhaps you should be quiet and listen to what the Spirit is saying to your church.

 

Lastly, your post sounded very racist and dismissive to a fellow Christian, I will share this with you:

 

One in Christ Phillipians2:2-4

…2then make my joy complete by being of one mind, having the same love, being united in spirit and purpose. 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or empty pride, but in humility consider others more important than yourselves. 4Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.…

 

God Bless!

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
There Are many books that the RCC Bible includes and the other Bibles don't. They are referred to as the Aprocraphal books. The books of Enoch and Macabees are amongst them. And, yes, there Is a lot of history in them, but also contain non-Scriptural information that contradicts the other books.

 

One of the beliefs included in those books, is that of purgatory. And That belief is contradicted by the rest of Scripture.

 

With all due respect Sue, you speak falsehoods ,perhaps it is a lack of knowledge on your part therefore, not intentional. It is not the RCC who first spoke of a "passing through" place for souls who were not exactly aware of their faults and needed to pass through a fire cleansing to burn off- in essence imperfections.

This is an ancient Hebrew belief and all of the "Ancient Way" Churches believe it. The RCC calls it Purgatory only because of the purging quality of fire. It is a fire that simply removes unintended sin- for God is the only Judge of man's heart.

It is from Maccabees which Jews believe prayer for the dead is good.

 

2 Maccabees 12:43-45

 

 

 

43 He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to

Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the

resurrection. 44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been su-

perfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for

those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead,

so that they might be delivered from their sin.

 

The ancient Hebrews believed prayer for those who died was honorable.

 

The Orthodox and RCC also get the idea of Purgatory from here:

 

1Corinthians 3:14-16

 

Christ Our Foundation

 

…14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself

will be saved, but only as one being snatched from the fire. 16Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s

temple, and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?…

 

When is reward given? Is it given at the Judgement or the here and now- living present? Just because you do not hear the Word Purgatory does not mean the doctrine is not in the foundation.

Holy Trinity is not there as in word, but is clearly present in the foundation. " Baptizing In the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" equals Holy Trinity.

I know Protestant's say this makes Christ's work on the cross obsolete, my question is how?

It sounds like Mercy to me, are you sure all that you have built will survive the fire?

 

And before all else it was a foundational belief amongst all Jews, and is where the Orthodox and RCC got it from. I know the RCC likes to think it is the begin and end all of Christianity

but it brought in Hebrew scholars and Rabbi's to compile the Bible that Western civilization received and its beliefs and concept are founded by this. As I said the RCC simply called this fire purgatory,

and did so because one is only saved by being snatched out in time.

Perhaps dialogue is what is in order amongst denominations -not continual condemnation. Love and dialogue not self abased knowledge, but a desire to grow and learn together as a Christian community and hear

what the Spirit says to the churches. That sounds plural doesn't ? Maybe then people will leave behind nonsense and cling to only truth and be one mind.

 

Purgatory is not where the lukewarm go either, purgatory is unintentional sin........but since God is pure, it is only that which can enter heaven. Do you think you may have unintentional sin?

No doubt, one should strive here on earth and make sure all ones i's are dotted and t's are crossed, but sometimes people have missteps unintentionally and this is what purgatory addresses. One should do their purgatory on earth,

and some are blessed to.

 

Enoch 's writings are older than all biblical writings. And on at least 45 different occasions Christ spoke verbatim what Enoch spoke of Him and heard from heaven. It is interesting how you condemn, Jew, Orthodox, and RCC Christians who all have a belief

in common with Enoch- whose writings predate what you possess, and you think you are right . If all who predate you by thousands of years taught about the" passing through" as Jews refer to it,( purgatory), and you do not,

who is right? Can you say for sure you are right? If so please prove your point with scripture, as I have pointed out some reasons why Jews, Orthodox and RCC Christians believe in purgatory. God Bless!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by GodIsMyJudge

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Enoch 's writings are older than all biblical writings. And on at least 45 different occasions Christ spoke verbatim what Enoch spoke of Him and heard from heaven. It is interesting how you condemn, Jew, Orthodox, and RCC Christians who all have a belief

 

Can you please quote some of those 45+ occasions for analysis?

 

Do you also believe Jude quoted Enoch - maybe you can post the textual analysis that has led you to that conclusion if you do?

 

I would be very interested in interacting with these things :RpS_thumbsup:

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Well I can't speak for all 900 million Protestants but since I am a born again Christian chosen before the foundation of the world by God the Father to be in Christ I will speak for myself. I have been saved for over 43 years and I have heard of the Books of Enoch. In my research of those books however I have discovered that only Ethiopian Jews (Beta Israel) and the Ethiopian Orthodox Church consider the Books of Enoch to be inspired. While some Protestant Christian denominations may accept the Books of Enoch as having some historical or theological interest, they generally regard the Books of Enoch as non-canonical and/or non-inspired. Personally, I believe that these historical books are good reading but either reading them or not reading them will affect my relationship with God one way or the other unlike the inspired texts which lead us to a more excellent understanding of our God's will for our lives.

 

Well, no you can not speak for all 900 million Protestants in the world.......and if that means anything to God. God is about quality not quantity. I have not stopped by here in a while, but when I did and saw this arrogant post , I could not resist sharing the gospel.

As for predestination , that is for God to know and one to find out. Yes Election takes place through one choosing to follow, but ones end only God knows for sure........ most important thing is humility, that is the sure way to run your race and win. The lack of humility in your post is very telling.

 

The Tongue's Answer is from the Lord Proverbs 16:17-18

…17The highway of the upright is to depart from evil; He who watches his way preserves his life. 18Pride goes before destruction, And a haughty spirit before stumbling. 19It is better to be humble in spirit with the lowly Than to divide the spoil with the proud.…

 

And we must never forget Judas, though called and elected failed! The point is humility, this the sure way that we remain in Christ.

1Peter 5:6

 

6Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, so that in due time He may exalt you.…

 

It seems you forget this and exalt yourself. Mother Miriam didn't even do this, and she was blessed among all. You could learn from her humility.

 

Now, as for Beta and Alpha, that too God decides and is also determined by humility toward God not ethnicity. And it is a people who are not a people whom God shall call His beloved actually, and this to teach Israel.

 

God's Mercy to Israel Hosea 2:22-23

…22And the earth will respond to the grain, to the new wine and to the oil, And they will respond to Jezreel. 23"I will sow her for Myself in the land. I will also have compassion on her who had not obtained compassion, And I will say to those who were not My people, 'You are My people!' And they will say, 'You are my God!'"

 

The Living Stone 1Peter 2:9-11

…9But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. 10Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. 11Beloved, I urge you as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from the desires of the flesh, which war against your soul.…

 

The point is all gentiles were not a people and are now, so you should be grateful that you as a gentile are called Beloved, you who are actually what you call"Beta" have been given the grace to know the One True God of Israel.

 

As for non-canonical, that is what Protestants have learned through the RCC. It is funny how you Protestants call the RCC the Harlot, but when convenient toss about non- canonical this or that. And I highly doubt, that someone with such arrogance concerning salvation -would know if Writings of Enoch are this or that. The bottom line is ancient Hebrews read and studied from the Books of Enoch, this way before the RCC or Protestants called them anything. Also, it is disingenuous for anyone to say that Jews did not study the book of Enoch, more correctly put is, not all Jews did. And at present, Christian Jews do and value these works as sacred.

I choose to hear what the Spirit says to the Churches than to presume anyone Beta or less. It is the Spirit of God which proves one as anything, not you. In case you have overlooked, in the Revelation Christ is speaking to all the churches not just some. You assume a lot about yourself and others, this speaks volumes perhaps you should be quiet and listen to what the Spirit is saying to your church.

 

Lastly, your post sounded very racist and dismissive to a fellow Christian, I will share this with you:

 

One in Christ Phillipians2:2-4

…2then make my joy complete by being of one mind, having the same love, being united in spirit and purpose. 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or empty pride, but in humility consider others more important than yourselves. 4Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.…

 

God Bless!

 

 

 

Hi "GodIsMyJudge"

 

Why do you feel that "Benji" post was arrogant. -- He said he was speaking for himself - Not 900 million Protestants. There Are lots of Protestants in the world.

 

Election and predestination are Big topics. Lots of discussion in the past and more in the future.

 

Humility Is a good virtue. How about we are to love the Lord our God with all our heart, mind and soul and our neighbor as ourselves. Our neighbors being those around us where we live, work, socialize with -- even on Forums.

 

You mentioned Mother Miriam? She was the daughter of Amram and Jochebed, and sister of Moses and Aaron.

 

I think you mean Mary the Mother of Jesus -- that is RCC thought, though.

 

Your comment about all Gentiles -- maybe you're referring to Jews?

 

The book of Enoch is not included in the nonRCC Bibles. I've never read the extra Books -- though I've heard that they are okay historically -- The Macabees tell of the history between the Old and New Testaments.

 

I was just rereading your first post and wondering what the Protestant view is on the several Books of Enoch -- apparently you haven't liked the response.

 

Your background is Etheopian Orthodox -- interesting -- how did you get into that particular religious belief system.

 

I Do remember your comment about Revelation 12 and the 1st Woe -- Revelation 12 is about The woman and the dragon. The 3 woes are mentioned in last verse of Rev. 8 and the end of the 1st woe is past in mid chapter 9.

 

Trust you've been having a good day today :)

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First of all Sue D. Miriam or Miriyam with a y is Mary's Hebrew name, like Yeshua is for Jesus. And I am not addressing RCC books, but what present day Christian Jews and Orthodox Ethiopian are reading from, and if you can not see the obvious in Benji's post than let God be the judge of that as well.

Humility-key. I am not going to reiterate the obvious.

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Can you please quote some of those 45+ occasions for analysis?

 

Do you also believe Jude quoted Enoch - maybe you can post the textual analysis that has led you to that conclusion if you do?

 

I would be very interested in interacting with these things :RpS_thumbsup:

 

I will post this introduction to the arguments against and for from a brother in the faith, who shares both sides and is for the Writing's of Enoch.

 

DEFENDING THE BOOK OF ENOCH- TORAH DRIVEN LIFE:

 

The following are actual objections to the Book of Enoch, along with responses.

 

 

 

Objection: “To the Biblically ignorant reader, the Book of Enoch might have an appeal; but to a believer grounded in the Scriptures, the Book of Enoch is packed full of heresy.”

 

Response: Many have claimed the Book of Enoch to be “full of heresy,” but few offer any factual evidence to support this claim. The fact is that the Book of Enoch was hidden away from the Roman church for centuries. The result of this is that there is much in the Book of Enoch that did not directly influence the doctrines that make up the beliefs of the modern church. As such, it is not the Scriptures themselves that the Book of Enoch is “contradicting,” but the beliefs of the modern church that were formed over the span of time that the Book of Enoch was absent from the libraries of church literature.

 

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

 

Objection: “If the Book of Enoch were valid, composing well over 100 chapters, there should be numerous New Testament references to it; but there aren’t… In sharp contrast to the Book of Enoch, the New Testament often quotes the Book of Genesis.”

 

Response: Contrary to popular belief, the Book of Enoch is referenced in the New Testament at least 40 times. Several of these are even direct quotations, though not specifically attributed to Enoch. One of these instances, Jude 1:14-15, is a direct quotation, attributed specifically to Enoch himself. Several “New Testament” concepts are found to have their source in the Book of Enoch: the springs of living waters, (John 4:13-14 / Enoch 48:1) the new heaven and new earth, (Revelation 21:1 / Enoch 91:16-17) and several of the Beatitudes. (Matthew 5, Luke 6 / Enoch 5:7, Enoch 94:8)

 

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

 

Objection: “The Book of Enoch uses unfamiliar terminology, referring to the ‘Lord of Spirits’ and the ‘Head of Days.’ These terms are foreign to the Word of God.”

 

Response: An avid scholar would understand that the Book of Enoch has gone through several linguistic filters that are foreign to the Hebrew Scriptures. Terms like “Lord of Spirits” and “Head of Days” are found in the Word of God, but in different forms; “Lord of Spirits,” for instance, is translated from the Hebrew as “the Lord of Hosts;” “Head of Days” is likewise found in the Bible translated as “Ancient of Days.”

 

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

 

Objection: “The Messiah is not directly mentioned… It is worthy to note that Christ’s deity is not evidenced in the Book of Enoch.”

 

Response: This objection is not remotely true; in fact, huge portions of the text are directed toward exalting the character and personage of the Messiah. The following Messianic titles are referenced in the Book of Enoch:

  • Elect One (Enoch 39:6, 40:6, 45:3-5, 49:2-4, 51:1-3, 52:6-9, 53:6, 55:4, 56:6, 61:5, 61:8-11, 62:1)
  • Son of Man (Enoch 46:2-4, 48:2, 60:10, 62:5-9, 62:14, 63:11, 69:26-30, 70:1, 71:14-16)
  • Anointed / Messiah (Enoch 48:10, 52:4)

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

 

Objection: “Many terms from the Biblical Book of Revelation are quoted in the Book of Enoch…”

 

Response: The Book of Revelation was written about 90 A.D. The best of Biblical scholars date the Book of Enoch to the second century B.C.. Even the portion of the book reckoned as being part of the very latest authorship is now considered to predate the New Testament. In the words of James H. Charlesworth in The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha and the New Testament, “…no specialists now argue that I Enoch 37-71 is a Christian and postdates the first century.” So, if anything, the Revelation of John is quoting from the Book of Enoch. I prefer to think that both the Revelation of John and the Book of Enoch are quoting from God.

 

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

 

Objection: “The King James translators, 48 scholarly men skilled in the Hebrew and Greek languages, didn’t believe the work was inspired by God.”

 

Response: The King James translators worked from 1604 through 1611. The Book of Enoch was considered “lost” from approximately through 1773, when it was rediscovered in several Ethiopian manuscripts. Hence, the King James translators did not even have access to any manuscripts of the Book of Enoch.

 

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

 

Objection: “The sons of God are the godly line who have come down from Adam through Seth, and the daughters of men belong to the line of Cain. What you have here now is an intermingling and intermarriage of these two lines, until finally the entire line is totally corrupted (well, not totally; there is one exception). That is the picture that is presented to us here.”

 

Response: The above thought process is an interpretation of Genesis 6:2 that is not based in reality. The passage states, “That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.” In the above thought process, the “sons of God” are understood to be the descendants of Seth, whereas the “daughters of man” are considered the descendants of Cain, but there are a handful of reasons why this thought process is not accurate. First, the phrase “sons of God” is used elsewhere in Hebrew literature only when referring to angelic beings. Second, the action taking place in Genesis 6:2 was so grievous in God’s sight that it caused Him to say only a few passages later, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the surface of the ground… for I am sorry that I have made them.” Yet this destructive proclamation is on the back of God having commanded mankind to “Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it.” (Genesis 1:28) It is inconceivable that God was so grieved by human reproduction that He saw fit to destroy the world.

 

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

 

Objection: “Jesus and the apostles never called it scripture.”

 

Response: There is actually a very strong example of Yeshua referring to the Book of Enoch as Scripture. In Matthew 22:29-30, Yeshua first chided the Sadducees for their lack of understanding of “the Scriptures,” then proceeded to teach a concept that is only found in the Book of Enoch.

 

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

 

Objection: “A few early church fathers highly valued the book of Enoch but they never referred to it as scripture.”

 

Response: This statement is simply incorrect. Church father Tertulian writes as follows in his 2nd century work, On the Apparel of Women I 3:1-3, “I am aware that the Scripture of Enoch…” Church father Origen appealed to the Book of Enoch as having the same canonical authority as he does the Book of Psalms in De Principiis IV. Irenaeus, in his work The Proof of the Apostolic Preaching 18, records a condensed retelling of Enoch 6-8. Lastly, the author of the Letter of Barnabas (not the Barnabas mentioned in the book of Acts) quotes Enoch multiple times along side the canonical Scriptures. To say that the early church fathers unanimously did not regard Enoch as Scripture is a blatant misrepresentation of historical fact.

 

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

 

Objection: “One reason most Christian do not accept the Book of Enoch is that the Jewish teachers did not accept it as part of the Bible. It is not part of what Christians call the Old Testament.”

 

Response: This is yet another baseless objection. Of the Jewish sects of the first century, the ideas of what exactly constituted the “canon” of Scriptures varied from group to group. The ancient Pharisees used a set of books that is very similar the books that make up what we call today the Tanakh, or Old Testament, plus perhaps the Book of Sirach. The Essenes, on the other hand, accepted in their sacred library at Qumran an entire collection of holy texts, among which were the books of Tobit, Jubilees, Sirach, and even Enoch. To suggest that the ancient Jews did not accept the Book of Enoch is erroneous; it is better said that while some ancient Jews did not accept the Book of Enoch, others, in fact, did.

 

God Bless!

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There Are many books that the RCC Bible includes and the other Bibles don't. They are referred to as the Aprocraphal books. The books of Enoch and Macabees are amongst them. And, yes, there Is a lot of history in them, but also contain non-Scriptural information that contradicts the other books.

 

One of the beliefs included in those books, is that of purgatory. And That belief is contradicted by the rest of Scripture.

 

With all due respect Sue, you speak falsehoods ,perhaps it is a lack of knowledge on your part therefore, not intentional. It is not the RCC who first spoke of a "passing through" place for souls who were not exactly aware of their faults and needed to pass through a fire cleansing to burn off- in essence imperfections.

This is an ancient Hebrew belief and all of the "Ancient Way" Churches believe it. The RCC calls it Purgatory only because of the purging quality of fire. It is a fire that simply removes unintended sin- for God is the only Judge of man's heart.

It is from Maccabees which Jews believe prayer for the dead is good.

 

2 Maccabees 12:43-45

 

 

 

43 He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to

Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the

resurrection. 44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been su-

perfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for

those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead,

so that they might be delivered from their sin.

 

The ancient Hebrews believed prayer for those who died was honorable.

 

The Orthodox and RCC also get the idea of Purgatory from here:

 

1Corinthians 3:14-16

 

Christ Our Foundation

 

…14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself

will be saved, but only as one being snatched from the fire. 16Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s

temple, and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?…

 

When is reward given? Is it given at the Judgement or the here and now- living present? Just because you do not hear the Word Purgatory does not mean the doctrine is not in the foundation.

Holy Trinity is not there as in word, but is clearly present in the foundation. " Baptizing In the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" equals Holy Trinity.

I know Protestant's say this makes Christ's work on the cross obsolete, my question is how?

It sounds like Mercy to me, are you sure all that you have built will survive the fire?

 

And before all else it was a foundational belief amongst all Jews, and is where the Orthodox and RCC got it from. I know the RCC likes to think it is the begin and end all of Christianity

but it brought in Hebrew scholars and Rabbi's to compile the Bible that Western civilization received and its beliefs and concept are founded by this. As I said the RCC simply called this fire purgatory,

and did so because one is only saved by being snatched out in time.

Perhaps dialogue is what is in order amongst denominations -not continual condemnation. Love and dialogue not self abased knowledge, but a desire to grow and learn together as a Christian community and hear

what the Spirit says to the churches. That sounds plural doesn't ? Maybe then people will leave behind nonsense and cling to only truth and be one mind.

 

Purgatory is not where the lukewarm go either, purgatory is unintentional sin........but since God is pure, it is only that which can enter heaven. Do you think you may have unintentional sin?

No doubt, one should strive here on earth and make sure all ones i's are dotted and t's are crossed, but sometimes people have missteps unintentionally and this is what purgatory addresses. One should do their purgatory on earth,

and some are blessed to.

 

Enoch 's writings are older than all biblical writings. And on at least 45 different occasions Christ spoke verbatim what Enoch spoke of Him and heard from heaven. It is interesting how you condemn, Jew, Orthodox, and RCC Christians who all have a belief

in common with Enoch- whose writings predate what you possess, and you think you are right . If all who predate you by thousands of years taught about the" passing through" as Jews refer to it,( purgatory), and you do not,

who is right? Can you say for sure you are right? If so please prove your point with scripture, as I have pointed out some reasons why Jews, Orthodox and RCC Christians believe in purgatory. God Bless!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi -- Scripture teaches that 'absent from the body is being present with the Lord' -- On the cross -- the repentant thief was told by Christ that that very day, he would be with Him in paradise.

 

Luke 16:19 The rich man and Lazarus -- vs 22 The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. vs 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away......

 

A person can get lots of ideas from Scripture that are not intended to be there. Verses need to be taken in context of the paragraph and/ or chapter to get their intended meaning.

 

1 Corinthians 3 Also states that in vs 11 "For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ." It is not Peter or any other person. It is Jesus Christ the Son of God.

 

I've never heard a Protestant say that the cross of Christ is obsolete. The cross of Christ / His bodily resurrection provides our salvation.

 

And, yes, the Godhead -- Trinity = God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit. Without it there is no salvation. God's mercy - absolutely.

 

The intention is Not to condemn Anyone. But there Is but one way John 14:6 Jesus Christ is telling us that "I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Me." Jesus Christ.

 

Jesus Christ is the one and only mediator between mankind and God. The cross of Christ is our bridge to God. Our sins were paid for on the cross -- nothing else is needed to purge any sins of any kind.

 

Jesus Christ suffered greatly / His blood was shed / for us/ on that cruel cross.

 

The only other suffering will be experienced in eternal hell and that will be forever. Just as eternal as Heaven will be. ( the New Jerusalem).

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First of all Sue D. Miriam or Miriyam with a y is Mary's Hebrew name, like Yeshua is for Jesus. And I am not addressing RCC books, but what present day Christian Jews and Orthodox Ethiopian are reading from, and if you can not see the obvious in Benji's post than let God be the judge of that as well.

Humility-key. I am not going to reiterate the obvious.

Mary is in the New Testament - Greek language. Miriam was in the Old Testament -- Hebrew.

 

Well -- those books you've named are in the RCC Bible between the Old Testament and the New Testament but only in the RCC Bible.

 

Sorry about what you seem to be reading into his post.

 

Sort of wondering why you are so emphatic regarding humility. Apparently I'm missing the obvious. Are you referring to the Beatitudes in Matthew 5 -- Sermon on the Mount?

 

And , yes, there are many passages about humility --humbleness -- James 4:6.

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Sue D. also, just simply making dialogue, that all of us may be knowledgeable and fruitful in God. I do believe in predestination and Election because it is in the foundation.

God Works In All Things Roman8:29-31

…29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those He predestined He also called, those He called He also justified, those He justified He also glorified. 31What then shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?…

 

What I was addressing in Benji's post is a lack of humility. Benji did the attacking, against Enoch, Ethiopian Jews, and I am sure he does this to all other Christian Denominations that do not believe as he does. I am simply supporting doctrines believed by others with scripture.......false representation is wrong.

Romans 8:33-34

 

33Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us.

 

 

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What I was addressing in Benji's post is a lack of humility.
That is not your job. If you feel there is a problem then alert a moderator.

 

Benji did the attacking, against Enoch, Ethiopian Jews, and I am sure he does this to all other Christian Denominations that do not believe as he does.
Do not assume you know what others do or will do. Benji expressed his views just as you have pressed yours.

 

Let the moderators do their job. You are new here and not off to a great start. Keep your personal opinions about others to yourself.

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Sue D. also, just simply making dialogue, that all of us may be knowledgeable and fruitful in God. I do believe in predestination and Election because it is in the foundation.

God Works In All Things Roman8:29-31

…29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those He predestined He also called, those He called He also justified, those He justified He also glorified. 31What then shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?…

 

What I was addressing in Benji's post is a lack of humility. Benji did the attacking, against Enoch, Ethiopian Jews, and I am sure he does this to all other Christian Denominations that do not believe as he does. I am simply supporting doctrines believed by others with scripture.......false representation is wrong.

Romans 8:33-34

 

33Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us.

 

In defense of 'Benji" you Did ask for the Protestant view of those books of Enoch -- you simply don't like his response. You felt he was attacking -- he wasn't -- he was responding to your request. You know him through that one post.

 

Election -- God knows who His elect are - chosen by Him from the beginning -- actually from before the foundation of the world. But He / God is the Only One who knows who they are. We - are told to go throughout the world and make disciples of all peoples, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

And, yes, excellent verses. "To be conformed to the image of His Son......" Absolutely.

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Reformed Statement of Faith

  1. The Bible, having been inspired by God, is entirely trustworthy and without error. Therefore, we are to believe and obey its teachings. The Bible is the only source of special revelation for the church today.

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Posted (edited)
Reformed Statement of Faith
  1. The Bible, having been inspired by God, is entirely trustworthy and without error. Therefore, we are to believe and obey its teachings. The Bible is the only source of special revelation for the church today.

 

 

Edited by Becky
Statement of Faith is not up for debate.

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Reformed Statement of Faith
  1. The Bible, having been inspired by God, is entirely trustworthy and without error. Therefore, we are to believe and obey its teachings. The Bible is the only source of special revelation for the church today.

Amen! I totally 1,000,000,000,000% agree.

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That is not your job. If you feel there is a problem then alert a moderator.

 

Do not assume you know what others do or will do. Benji expressed his views just as you have pressed yours.

 

Let the moderators do their job. You are new here and not off to a great start. Keep your personal opinions about others to yourself.

 

No assumption, it is in writing. You obviously feel it is Christian like to call Ethiopian Jews Beta Israel and with one broad brush stroke assume Enoch is false without clear evidence, and use RC opinion to support it, then tell me this is a Protestant forum??????? I am fully aware this is a protestant forum, and yes I did ask, I am simply giving answers to what is falsely assumed. As for moderators doing their jobs,this post has remained as it is for a while. For me to point out a lack of humility on his part- is just stating the obvious. I have a right to defend doctrine supported by the foundation. What fault would you find in that? The only fault would be PRIDE toward one doing so. Is there something wrong with using scripture based rebuttals? Simply rejecting books because that do not fit ones narrative is disingenuous, and then to quote RC canon is also. All these books are Hebrew ......have you even read Enoch or Maccabees or Tobit, ex..... for yourself? Once you do then at least you will be knowledgeable and can determine if the RCC is right or wrong . Benji quotes their stance, because it suited him to, then says- though they admitted 2Maccabees later they only did so to defend their stance on Purgatory. I am saying the Jews and orthodox taught this before the RCC that is all. The NT supports the doctrine and simply saying you do not agree with it because it does not fit your narrative is just as bad as saying the RCC only include 2 Maccabees because it fits theirs. No proof, no scriptural rebuttal simply opinion. God Bless!

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