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jayhb1976

Easy believism

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How do you answer no to the question, is the law (morality/sanctification) necessary for salvation without sounding like an antinomian or easy believer?

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How do you answer no to the question, is the law (morality/sanctification) necessary for salvation without sounding like an antinomian or easy believer?

 

Firstly, law/ morality/ sanctification which related are not the same thing.

 

Secondly, Sanctification is part of the process of salvation (1 Cor 6:11) so I would never answer 'no' to the question 'is the sanctification necessary for salvation?' when clearly, according to Paul, it is.

 

Thirdly, I would ask if the questioner view salvation as momentary event (ie is conflating 'salvation' with 'Justification') rather then seeing it as a process beginning in regeneration and ending in glorification

 

And fourthly I might quote James 2:20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

 

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Ephesians 2:1-10 NASB

1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

 

It helps to remember what "SAVED" really is (according to God).

We do not perform good works in order to get saved, rather, we are saved to enable us to freely perform good works with no 'performance' strings attached.

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Firstly, law/ morality/ sanctification which related are not the same thing.

 

Secondly, Sanctification is part of the process of salvation (1 Cor 6:11) so I would never answer 'no' to the question 'is the sanctification necessary for salvation?' when clearly, according to Paul, it is.

 

Thirdly, I would ask if the questioner view salvation as momentary event (ie is conflating 'salvation' with 'Justification') rather then seeing it as a process beginning in regeneration and ending in glorification

 

And fourthly I might quote James 2:20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

 

How is sanctification part of the process when faith "alone" means "alone". I though the whole point of faith alone was, our actions don't mean anything or add anything to the gift of salvation. Jesus had done it all already.

 

Your position sounds catholic.

 

Thx

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Ephesians 2:1-10 NASB

1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

 

It helps to remember what "SAVED" really is (according to God).

We do not perform good works in order to get saved, rather, we are saved to enable us to freely perform good works with no 'performance' strings attached.

 

Enable does not follow that it is necessary or commanded of us to perform those good works.

It boils down to do we have to or not do good works?

Why say faith alone when it really isn't alone?

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Why say faith alone when it really isn't alone?

 

Just drop'n a little historical context for the phrase "Sola Fide" or by faith alone: The Catholic Church taught that we are justified by faith and the works that we produce, which the righteousness that God infuses in us through faith brings about. The reformers responded, “No, we are justified by faith alone, which lays hold of the alien righteousness of Christ that God freely credits to the account of those who believe”.

 

God bless,

William

 

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How is sanctification part of the process when faith "alone" means "alone".

 

Well, in the words of a quote that has been attributed to both Calvin and Luther, "faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is never alone" -

 

I though the whole point of faith alone was, our actions don't mean anything or add anything to the gift of salvation. Jesus had done it all already.

 

Forgive me, but you will have to point out to me where I spoke of our actions playing a part in our salvation?

 

I spoke about how sanctification is required for Salvation, but I made it clear from the citation of 1 Cor 6:11 exactly what i was talking about, let me quote it in full: "And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." - who is doing the washing, sanctification and justification - is it me, or is it God?

 

I also spoke about James 2:20 which says (if i may paraphrase) that the type of faith that isn't demonstrated by works is not a genuine faith.

 

Which of those statements implies that our actions play a part in our salvation?

 

Your position sounds catholic.

 

Thx

 

Then I would suggest you familiarize yourself with what the reformers taught and what the RCC continues to teach today because actually what i am saying stands in direct opposition to the teachings of Rome.

 

We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in the Lord Jesus Christ alone, and for the glory of God alone, and the means of that salvation is scripture alone. However the saved person is a new creation, we have our hearts of stone removed and replaced with hearts that have God's will written on them, we are known by our fruits - all that is to say that whilst salvation is all of God, and not of man, if there is no evidence of that work of grace in our lives (ie no sanctification) then it goes to show that we have not experienced that gracious work of Salvation. Remember Paul's words in Rom 6:1-2 - if we have died to sin, how can we continue in it?

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I spoke about how sanctification is required for Salvation, but I made it clear from the citation of 1 Cor 6:11 exactly what i was talking about, let me quote it in full: "And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." - who is doing the washing, sanctification and justification - is it me, or is it God?

 

I find debating Catholics unfruitful because we can never agree upon the terminology. The definitions of the words we are using mean something quite different to a Catholic so usually it results in Catholics and Protestants talking past one another.

 

Do you also find this a problem? For example, "the Protestants view of justification is God declares that a guilty person is righteous because of what Christ has done. Sanctification, then, is the process of being made more righteous throughout your life. The Catholic's view of justification is both a point and a process: What the Roman Catholic rejects is that there is an imputed righteousness of Christ to us at the moment of salvation, that we are counted as fully righteous in the sight of God”.

 

I bolded imputed, and was the reason why I included the historical context in post #6 where Roman Catholicism suggests "infuse" rather than "impute".

 

God bless,

William

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I spoke about how sanctification is required for Salvation, but I made it clear from the citation of 1 Cor 6:11 exactly what i was talking about, let me quote it in full: "And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." - who is doing the washing, sanctification and justification - is it me, or is it God?

 

I find debating Catholics unfruitful because we can never agree upon the terminology. The definitions of the words we are using mean something quite different to a Catholic so usually it results in Catholics and Protestants talking past one another.

 

Do you also find this a problem? For example, "the Protestants view of justification is God declares that a guilty person is righteous because of what Christ has done. Sanctification, then, is the process of being made more righteous throughout your life. The Catholic's view of justification is both a point and a process: What the Roman Catholic rejects is that there is an imputed righteousness of Christ to us at the moment of salvation, that we are counted as fully righteous in the sight of God”.

 

I bolded imputed, and was the reason why I included the historical context in post #6 where Roman Catholicism suggests "infuse" rather than "impute".

 

God bless,

William

Yes I do find the same problem

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Ephesians 2:1-10 NASB

1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

 

It helps to remember what "SAVED" really is (according to God).

We do not perform good works in order to get saved, rather, we are saved to enable us to freely perform good works with no 'performance' strings attached.

Faith without works is dead. We don't work to prove we are saved, it comes naturally because we are "newly created in Jesus Christ. Amen

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I spoke about how sanctification is required for Salvation, but I made it clear from the citation of 1 Cor 6:11 exactly what i was talking about, let me quote it in full: "And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." - who is doing the washing, sanctification and justification - is it me, or is it God?

 

I find debating Catholics unfruitful because we can never agree upon the terminology. The definitions of the words we are using mean something quite different to a Catholic so usually it results in Catholics and Protestants talking past one another.

 

Do you also find this a problem? For example, "the Protestants view of justification is God declares that a guilty person is righteous because of what Christ has done. Sanctification, then, is the process of being made more righteous throughout your life. The Catholic's view of justification is both a point and a process: What the Roman Catholic rejects is that there is an imputed righteousness of Christ to us at the moment of salvation, that we are counted as fully righteous in the sight of God”.

 

I bolded imputed, and was the reason why I included the historical context in post #6 where Roman Catholicism suggests "infuse" rather than "impute".

 

God bless,

William

Quite the same for those who are King Jame Only!

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Debate seems fruitless when there is no common agreement and full understanding of the terminology. Debates can quickly turn out to arguments. In every debate someone wins and someone looses. But seldom does the looser think they lost. I try to avoid debates and choose to dialogue instead.

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How do you answer no to the question, is the law (morality/sanctification) necessary for salvation without sounding like an antinomian or easy believer?

 

I would want to know why are you asking this? Instead of worrying about that remember that Jesus said if you love me you will obey my commandments. Obedience may not be necessary, but you shouldn't enjoy disobeying the one you love.

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I would want to know why are you asking this? Instead of worrying about that remember that Jesus said if you love me you will obey my commandments. Obedience may not be necessary, but you shouldn't enjoy disobeying the one you love.

 

Jesus said that if we love Him we will keep His commands, but He wasn' referrng to the 10 Commandments. 1 Cor 6:11 tells us that we are already sanctified, which means we are already made Holy, which means we are SET APART. God has set us apart from and above those who do not believe in Christ Jesus. AS HE IS, SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD 1 John 4:17.

 

Because we a ARE set apart, we should conduct ourselves as though we are set apart and we know it. Trouble is, most Christians don't know it in their heart so they have no idea how to act the part. So to speak. They look at righteousness and holiness as a goal to reach for instead of a starting post. Just imagine how far they could go in faith if only they quit trying so hard to get to the starting line, and trying to obtain what was already given to them as a free gift.

 

James' faith without works is so obvious, there is no need to complicate it. No matter what it is a person believes, they will have works that others can look to for evidence of what you believe. BUT IF ABRHAM WAS JUSTIFED BY WORKS, HE WOULD HAVE REASON TO BOAST, BUT NOT BEFORE GOD. God is not impressed with our works, or with anything to do with our flesh. He pays no attention to the flesh which is why He told us not to. He looks at the Spirit. He wants to be worshipped in spirit and in truth. James is not talking about be justified before God by our works, but before each other. SHOW ME YOUR FAITH.....AND I WILL SHOW YOU....

 

We sometimes act out of character, of course, but the norm for any of us is for our actions to line up with what it is we believe. And that is a universal truth, whether we are believing Christ is God, or if we believe there is no God and no judgment to come, our actions will line up with what we believe. That's what James is talking about. Besides, John 6:29 tells us that our faith is the works that God would have us do.

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Jesus said that if we love Him we will keep His commands, but He wasn' referrng to the 10 Commandments. 1 Cor 6:11 tells us that we are already sanctified, which means we are already made Holy, which means we are SET APART. God has set us apart from and above those who do not believe in Christ Jesus. AS HE IS, SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD 1 John 4:17.

 

Because we a ARE set apart, we should conduct ourselves as though we are set apart and we know it. Trouble is, most Christians don't know it in their heart so they have no idea how to act the part. So to speak. They look at righteousness and holiness as a goal to reach for instead of a starting post. Just imagine how far they could go in faith if only they quit trying so hard to get to the starting line, and trying to obtain what was already given to them as a free gift.

 

James' faith without works is so obvious, there is no need to complicate it. No matter what it is a person believes, they will have works that others can look to for evidence of what you believe. BUT IF ABRHAM WAS JUSTIFED BY WORKS, HE WOULD HAVE REASON TO BOAST, BUT NOT BEFORE GOD. God is not impressed with our works, or with anything to do with our flesh. He pays no attention to the flesh which is why He told us not to. He looks at the Spirit. He wants to be worshipped in spirit and in truth. James is not talking about be justified before God by our works, but before each other. SHOW ME YOUR FAITH.....AND I WILL SHOW YOU....

 

We sometimes act out of character, of course, but the norm for any of us is for our actions to line up with what it is we believe. And that is a universal truth, whether we are believing Christ is God, or if we believe there is no God and no judgment to come, our actions will line up with what we believe. That's what James is talking about. Besides, John 6:29 tells us that our faith is the works that God would have us do.

 

I wasn't arguing or debating that God sanctifies us. Even more of a reason that out of gratitude and love we should walk in a way to please Him. I don't want to obey in order to win his approval. I want to obey because I already have his approval

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How do you answer no to the question, is the law (morality/sanctification) necessary for salvation without sounding like an antinomian or easy believer?

 

The Mosaic Law is void! Including the ten written in stone which Paul said si a ministry of death! Teh law was never designed to save, maintain salvation or prove salvation. It was meant to protect Israel while it was in effect and also to show man cannot be good enough to get saved on their own (driver people to faith)

 

I do not commit murder because teh Mosaic Law says to not commit murder- but Jesus said do not commit murder. Remember the church has no Sabbath day!

[h=1]Philippians 1:6-7 King James Version (KJV)[/h]

6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ

 

Any good deeds I do are the result of my being given a divine nature and eternal life!

 

 

 

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How do you answer no to the question, is the law (morality/sanctification) necessary for salvation without sounding like an antinomian or easy believer?

 

Easy believism is a moral evil in the kingdom! It is not just walking teh aisle and saying a prayer- it is a turning over ones life to Christ!

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I wasn't arguing or debating that God sanctifies us. Even more of a reason that out of gratitude and love we should walk in a way to please Him. I don't want to obey in order to win his approval. I want to obey because I already have his approval

 

Oh, I know. You just touched on a subject I'm passionate about and I just had to say something.

 

But you are right on, that we obey because we already have His approval. Obeying, helping others, praying for others, blessing others, that's what He puts in our heart. He gives us the heart do do the works, He works thru us to do the works, then He blesses us for doing those works. I think He sometimes will use any excuse to bless us. He's a giver.

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I spoke about how sanctification is required for Salvation, but I made it clear from the citation of 1 Cor 6:11 exactly what i was talking about, let me quote it in full: "And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." - who is doing the washing, sanctification and justification - is it me, or is it God?

 

I find debating Catholics unfruitful because we can never agree upon the terminology. The definitions of the words we are using mean something quite different to a Catholic so usually it results in Catholics and Protestants talking past one another.

 

Do you also find this a problem? For example, "the Protestants view of justification is God declares that a guilty person is righteous because of what Christ has done. Sanctification, then, is the process of being made more righteous throughout your life. The Catholic's view of justification is both a point and a process: What the Roman Catholic rejects is that there is an imputed righteousness of Christ to us at the moment of salvation, that we are counted as fully righteous in the sight of God”.

 

I bolded imputed, and was the reason why I included the historical context in post #6 where Roman Catholicism suggests "infuse" rather than "impute".

 

God bless,

William

I do not find that problem. but then I talk with the average pew catholic who has little to no knowledge of the theology of catholicism. I just talk about the love of Christ! Being a former Catholioc I also will take out, dust off and use my old catholic language. Like Paul I endeavor to become all things to all men in order to save some.

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Easy believism is a moral evil in the kingdom! It is not just walking teh aisle and saying a prayer- it is a turning over ones life to Christ!

 

So you don' believe, "any who believes in Me will have eternal life?" Or "whosoever believes in Him will have everlasting life." Too easy?

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So you don' believe, "any who believes in Me will have eternal life?" Or "whosoever believes in Him will have everlasting life." Too easy?

 

It depends on what you mean by the word "believe". Many believe that it means a mental assent that certain facts are true. In this sense, even Satan believes but he certainly isn't saved. The faith that saves involves acknowledging that we are sinners and surrendering control of our lives to Jesus Christ. Many "gospel" preachers say little or nothing about our sins but simply present Christ as a way to have a better life. The result of this kind of preaching is people who think they are saved but who are really still sinners bound for Hell.

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It depends on what you mean by the word "believe". Many believe that it means a mental assent that certain facts are true. In this sense, even Satan believes but he certainly isn't saved. The faith that saves involves acknowledging that we are sinners and surrendering control of our lives to Jesus Christ. Many "gospel" preachers say little or nothing about our sins but simply present Christ as a way to have a better life. The result of this kind of preaching is people who think they are saved but who are really still sinners bound for Hell.

 

 

Where does Scripture tell us to mention other people's sins? I haven't seen it. I mean in the new covenant I haven't seen it. It's

Everywhere in the OLD covenant.

 

 

Satan can' get saved even if he kept the law perfectly and started doing good works. Jesus came as a man to die for man. So, not sure what your point is there.

 

I think you misunderstand what Salvation is. It includes eternal life, but there are so many other promises included in "salvation" . ETERNAL life is promised by Christ Himself for just believing in Him. All those other prerequisites you'e puttng on there may be for salvation (wholeness in this life, here on earth), but not for eternal life.

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Easy believism is a moral evil in the kingdom! It is not just walking teh aisle and saying a prayer- it is a turning over ones life to Christ!

 

So you don' believe, "any who believes in Me will have eternal life?" Or "whosoever believes in Him will have everlasting life." Too easy?

Well teh 'easy- believism" that many churches teach is not biblical belief. the easy belief is walk the aisle, say a prayer and you are saved.

 

Biblical belief is a trust that produces a new nature, a new way of living and a new goal in life. It may not manifest itself strong at first- but someone who has turned to Christ will produce fruit that remains. Many times we cannot tell who is saved and trapped in carnality from one who is unsaved- and I am glad it is not our job to discern that!

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How do you answer no to the question, is the law (morality/sanctification) necessary for salvation without sounding like an antinomian or easy believer?

 

Firstly, law/ morality/ sanctification which related are not the same thing.

 

Secondly, Sanctification is part of the process of salvation (1 Cor 6:11) so I would never answer 'no' to the question 'is the sanctification necessary for salvation?' when clearly, according to Paul, it is.

 

Thirdly, I would ask if the questioner view salvation as momentary event (ie is conflating 'salvation' with 'Justification') rather then seeing it as a process beginning in regeneration and ending in glorification

 

And fourthly I might quote James 2:20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

Sanctify

The KJV translates Strong's G37 in the following manner: sanctify (26x), hallow (2x), be holy (1x).

 

Outline of Biblical Usage

 

to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow

 

to separate from profane things and dedicate to God

 

consecrate things to God

 

dedicate people to God

 

to purify

 

to cleanse externally

 

to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin

 

to purify internally by renewing of the soul

 

Seems clear that we have a part to play. The law was the rules. Sanctification is a process.

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

 

1 Peter 3:15

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

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Debate seems fruitless when there is no common agreement and full understanding of the terminology. Debates can quickly turn out to arguments. In every debate someone wins and someone looses. But seldom does the looser think they lost. I try to avoid debates and choose to dialogue instead.

Then don't debate! But talk to people. It is not about winning or losing a verbal joust, but seeking to show someone the way to Jesus! the Lord is not intimidated or aghast at what anyone believes! He is willing to take them right where they are at and with patience and love slowly teach them truth and let the error depart!

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