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CharlesC

Saved or not saved

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Have you ever wondered, about why the word saved seems so complex in Christianity. Once saved always saved, is a confusing statement. I mean, Jesus never stated that in exact words. See, theoredically the words mean, if truly born again, that you are saved. Not if you are not. So you sit in a church, listen to the sermon and think, Once saved always saved, sounds real good. I can get myself saved and thus go to church no more. License to sin. This is great.. but in reality, that will mean your religion is false. Your belief in God is false. No more reading the Bible. Oh boy, this is great news. But to the common sense person, that would make little sense at all. Why? Because if you truly believe one can be saved, thus break all God's commands and go to heaven, you are mistaken. So I sat there the longest time, thinking why would God allow such a statement to exist. A statement that could cause people to go the opposite direction and perhaps go to hell verses heaven.Well, maybe the Pharisees would believe something like this too. Thus fall into a trap. Not many people have read the Calvinist theory. It is a theory made up by man and is not Gods words.. Error is probable. But every man has not read the Calvinist theory and misunderstand the "Truly born" part. It really makes a difference. I see these errors and think, a man lived his entire adulthood away from God because some Pastor says, Once saved always saved. They live life sinfully and never study God's words. They follow man's laws and thus pay no attention to the Creator. Jude warns of such. But to be so foolish, to think, wow, no more church. These kind of people, I grew up around. So I know what they think is the truth. But their truth was a lie. I can see the truly born of God, regenerated, being truly saved. That means you are born again, you will listen to Jesus and follow him, you will obey, you will carry your cross, ect. if truly born again. That God is all that really matters to you. Pleasing Him. Not the self.. So perhaps the Calvinist theory is correct to an extent, because of the meaning truly born of God, regenerated. But all have not been taught this. So the think living a wild life and away from church is OK with God. I never was pleased to hear, Once saved always saved, because it gives a person a sense of doing as they please. I don't get this sense from reading the Bible. I obey the Lord.

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Yes, I agree that God gives freedom to all that they may have the choice to love Him or not, and to serve Him or not. Someone can be genuinely born again, but that does not take away their freedom to choose. They can choose even at the point of being born again to turn away from God and follow Him no more. God is loving and merciful and will not force anyone into heaven. He stands at the door of each person's heart and knocks, waiting patiently for them to open to Him (Revelation 3:20), and if they choose to evict Him He will comply, but will pursue them always. Of course that is not to say we don't have the assurance of salvation, because Jesus is our High Priest who intercedes on our behalf (Hebrews 4:14-16; Romans 8:33,34) and forgives us our sins (1 John 1:9). There are many verses in the Bible that we should look into:

 

"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." John 15:5,6

 

"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." 2 Peter 2:20-22

 

"And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard" Colossians 1:21-23

 

"Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." Romans 11:19-22

 

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." 1 John 5:11-13

 

All this implies that we have our part to do as we work out our own salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). Like you mentioned, we should delight to do God's commandments, read His word, and be in fellowship with His people through a church. "I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart." Psalm 40:8. Jesus says "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15. God bless you all.

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Someone can be genuinely born again, but that does not take away their freedom to choose. They can choose even at the point of being born again to turn away from God and follow Him no more.

A person who is born again has a new nature that cannot sin and he is also a member of the church, the body of Christ. Such a person will not want to turn away and couldn't even if he did want to. There are many who profess to be Christians, and who really believe they are Christians. For a person like this, believing in OSAS can be dangerous. Perhaps if you consider God's part in salvation, as well as the part of the person who is saved, you will understand this better.

 

https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2011/10/27/salvation-from-gods-perspective/

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See, my point was can we truly say Once saved always saved, is 100% right. Is it accurate. A person gets saved and baptized, but does not truly believe in Jesus. Is that person saved. I say, no. Or take it that a person is saved and baptized, but later in life, apostates. Is that person saved. I think not. Perseverance has a lot to do with us being saved. Baptist would say, well they never believed. But some apostates did. It might be better, to study the Parable of the wheat and the Tares. About apostasy. A imposter. A fake Christian. He can be saved and baptized, but may not truly believe in Christ. A lot claim to believe in Christ but their hearts are far from Him. They honor him with their lips. That is what I mean about we really can't say, Once saved always saved, in the Calvinist theory. Because we know we are saved, but we don't know if the person beside you is.

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See, my point was can we truly say Once saved always saved, is 100% right. Is it accurate. A person gets saved and baptized, but does not truly believe in Jesus. Is that person saved. I say, no. Or take it that a person is saved and baptized, but later in life, apostates. Is that person saved. I think not. Perseverance has a lot to do with us being saved. Baptist would say, well they never believed. But some apostates did. It might be better, to study the Parable of the wheat and the Tares. About apostasy. A imposter. A fake Christian. He can be saved and baptized, but may not truly believe in Christ. A lot claim to believe in Christ but their hearts are far from Him. They honor him with their lips. That is what I mean about we really can't say, Once saved always saved, in the Calvinist theory. Because we know we are saved, but we don't know if the person beside you is.

Jesus either is or is not the Saviour of the world - has He failed is He failing will He fail - imho all the children of God will be saved and all devils and children of the devil damned - how has He succeeded or is succeeding if many are on the broad road - wincam

Edited by wincam

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See, my point was can we truly say Once saved always saved, is 100% right. Is it accurate. A person gets saved and baptized, but does not truly believe in Jesus. Is that person saved. I say, no. Or take it that a person is saved and baptized, but later in life, apostates. Is that person saved. I think not. Perseverance has a lot to do with us being saved. Baptist would say, well they never believed. But some apostates did. It might be better, to study the Parable of the wheat and the Tares. About apostasy. A imposter. A fake Christian. He can be saved and baptized, but may not truly believe in Christ. A lot claim to believe in Christ but their hearts are far from Him. They honor him with their lips. That is what I mean about we really can't say, Once saved always saved, in the Calvinist theory. Because we know we are saved, but we don't know if the person beside you is.

No Jesus did not fail. He is the Son of God. And my Bible states there is a lot of ways to tell if a Christian is not sincere. This is hating your brother. This is anyone not claiming Jesus came in the flesh. This is not obeying what Jesus commands. Any love of this world the love of the Father is not in him. Love one another as Jesus loved you. Have you not tested every spirit? Many false prophets have walked out among us. Test the spirit to see if it is from God.

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God says we should be humble. So I will be humble.. Sorry wincam

Edited by CharlesC
I feel like pleasing the Father in heaven..

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People who want to sin will believe whatever allows them to, but it's not Calvinism that they would be believing if they want to separate works from faith. And if someone leaves the Christian faith then it doesn't really matter if they believed in that if they were once saved they're always saved because they no longer believe in being saved by Christ anymore, so keeping salvation they don't even believe in would mean nothing to them. But true born again Christians don't leave the faith. Christ tells is that no one will snatch us out of his hand, but he we truly have faith and then walk away it's because we would have been deceived or snatched away by Satan, doesn't happen.

 

 

 

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I don't like the OSAS wording at all.For one who is the one "saving" and who determines it "always". This combination of letters means nothing, its just letters that a whole lot of people just don't understand or if they do, they find it difficult to believe.

 

The way I say it is "eternal security of the believer". I hope you will agree that is much more to the point. Some will ask what does that mean? For our security does not come from us, its Jesus and God that holds us in their had. In John says no one that remove us from His eternal secure tight keeping of us for ever. This is such a wonderful important doctrine, and so important that God has given us His Holy Spirit to each believer as a 'seal" of His promise.

Now what about people who come forward confesses Christ gets baptized and them goes out and lives the reat of his life like a h**l? Here is my thinking, faith that falters, had a flaw from the first. Simply put he had a false conversion.

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I agree, with you, justme. Thank you, brother in Christ.

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People who want to sin will believe whatever allows them to, but it's not Calvinism that they would be believing if they want to separate works from faith. And if someone leaves the Christian faith then it doesn't really matter if they believed in that if they were once saved they're always saved because they no longer believe in being saved by Christ anymore, so keeping salvation they don't even believe in would mean nothing to them. But true born again Christians don't leave the faith. Christ tells is that no one will snatch us out of his hand, but he we truly have faith and then walk away it's because we would have been deceived or snatched away by Satan, doesn't happen.

 

 

 

 

Theophilus at post No 3 makes a lot of sense and here we have it again no one will snatch us out of His hand - Jesus as Creator foreknew our faults and failings and rebellions and sins and insults to God - but this is love that He still went ahead and created us in spite of our sins and insults and in further love this is how we are saved in spite of ourselves imho - wincam

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Yes, I agree that God gives freedom to all that they may have the choice to love Him or not, and to serve Him or not. Someone can be genuinely born again, but that does not take away their freedom to choose. They can choose even at the point of being born again to turn away from God and follow Him no more. God is loving and merciful and will not force anyone into heaven. He stands at the door of each person's heart and knocks, waiting patiently for them to open to Him (Revelation 3:20), and if they choose to evict Him He will comply, but will pursue them always. Of course that is not to say we don't have the assurance of salvation, because Jesus is our High Priest who intercedes on our behalf (Hebrews 4:14-16; Romans 8:33,34) and forgives us our sins (1 John 1:9). There are many verses in the Bible that we should look into:

 

"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." John 15:5,6

 

"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." 2 Peter 2:20-22

 

"And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard" Colossians 1:21-23

 

"Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." Romans 11:19-22

 

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." 1 John 5:11-13

 

All this implies that we have our part to do as we work out our own salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). Like you mentioned, we should delight to do God's commandments, read His word, and be in fellowship with His people through a church. "I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart." Psalm 40:8. Jesus says "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15. God bless you all.

Interesting... how many times can a person be born again? In theory, that is no limit? Hmmm, can a person be born again, again, again, again, again, again,again, again, again, again, again, again,again, again, again, again, again, again ??????

 

I suppose that a person born again, again, again, again, again, again, again ...must also spiritually die again, again, again, again, again, again, again

 

Does anyone here know of a person that has been born again multiple times? There must be examples.

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But even the Calvinist point of view, states one truly born of God. Or truly regenerated. Not everyone is. They walk away from there true commitment and follow their own desires. Thus they give up their love for God and putting trust in worldly possessions, lust, envy, greed, idols, their church beliefs and running off with new ones. A truly born again Christian can't loose his or her security. But one that does not truly believe has no security. Either they believe or not. We can't have it both ways. Now there are those whom repent and thus are back in good settings with God. But a lot can't repent neither. It says so in the Bible. Because of hardening of the heart. I can't assume that anything written in the Bible is not correct. It is, but interpretation is the main thing. We all interpret it a little differently. In all Christianity, we will have true Christians and fake Christians. It is a fact. Jesus said so. So we all should agree with this statement. Jesus is correct about everything. Jesus is the Father. Imposters called fake Christians are among the true Christians. So this is true, because Jesus claimed it true. The wheats and the tares. And Jesus stated, Whom is not against us is for us.

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Once saved always saved, is a confusing statement.

 

I agree. Many people suggest from the statement alone that man can pray a one time sinner's prayer, produce no fruit, or make a one time altar call and be eternally secure.

 

But even the Calvinist point of view, states one truly born of God. Or truly regenerated. Not everyone is. They walk away from there true commitment and follow their own desires. Thus they give up their love for God and putting trust in worldly possessions, lust, envy, greed, idols, their church beliefs and running off with new ones. A truly born again Christian can't loose his or her security. But one that does not truly believe has no security. Either they believe or not. We can't have it both ways. Now there are those whom repent and thus are back in good settings with God. But a lot can't repent neither. It says so in the Bible. Because of hardening of the heart. I can't assume that anything written in the Bible is not correct. It is, but interpretation is the main thing. We all interpret it a little differently. In all Christianity, we will have true Christians and fake Christians. It is a fact. Jesus said so. So we all should agree with this statement. Jesus is correct about everything. Jesus is the Father. Imposters called fake Christians are among the true Christians. So this is true, because Jesus claimed it true. The wheats and the tares. And Jesus stated, Whom is not against us is for us.

 

As you probably know, Calvinist do not teach OSAS but rather "Perseverance of the Saints". Although both teach eternal security Perseverance of the Saints emphasizes man's accountability and responsibility as well as monergism. Here's an article on the subject which you may find of interest: https://www.christforums.org/forum/s...-of-the-saints

 

God bless,

William

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Someone can be genuinely born again, but that does not take away their freedom to choose. They can choose even at the point of being born again to turn away from God and follow Him no more.

A person who is born again has a new nature that cannot sin and he is also a member of the church, the body of Christ. Such a person will not want to turn away and couldn't even if he did want to. There are many who profess to be Christians, and who really believe they are Christians. For a person like this, believing in OSAS can be dangerous. Perhaps if you consider God's part in salvation, as well as the part of the person who is saved, you will understand this better.

 

https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2011/10/27/salvation-from-gods-perspective/

A born-again believer Does have the Holy Spirit indwelling them. As Ephesians 4:30 says " And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." A believer doesn't loose his old nature -- the old and new natures are challenging the believer. We won't be living in sinless perfection until we are with Jesus Christ / are taken up to be with Him. The believer Is part of the body of Christ. There will be fruits of the Spirit being shown in the believer's life. Love,joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness , goodness, etc. If those fruits are not evident in a person's life -- 'by their fruits we shall know them'. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit will Give a person the desire to please God. The person who doesn't show this desire -- a loving, caring person Should approach that person privately and make sure that the person understands salvation. Actually OSAS is a wonderful assurance -- the Holy Spirit will never leave us -- His indwelling us is Not dependent on our good works any more than our salvation is.

 

Lots of people have "knowledge" About Jesus Christ / God but are not challenged about their acceptance of Him on a Personal level. A person believes in their Heart and confesses with their mouth, the Lord Jesus. 1 Corinthians 15: 1-4 also Is salvation -- 'saved'.

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See, my point was can we truly say Once saved always saved, is 100% right. Is it accurate. A person gets saved and baptized, but does not truly believe in Jesus. Is that person saved. I say, no. Or take it that a person is saved and baptized, but later in life, apostates. Is that person saved. I think not. Perseverance has a lot to do with us being saved. Baptist would say, well they never believed. But some apostates did. It might be better, to study the Parable of the wheat and the Tares. About apostasy. A imposter. A fake Christian. He can be saved and baptized, but may not truly believe in Christ. A lot claim to believe in Christ but their hearts are far from Him. They honor him with their lips. That is what I mean about we really can't say, Once saved always saved, in the Calvinist theory. Because we know we are saved, but we don't know if the person beside you is.

 

The difference is. Who does the saving? I believe it’s All God. Romans 8:28-30. Titus 3 5. We had our freedom and until the veil was lifted we chose sin. So unless God chooses to Call us and remove the veil to open the eyes of our heart through the Holy Spirit we are Hell bound at our death. We can no more choose to be resurrected spiritually than we could resurrect ourselves physically. Once we are born again the Holy Spirit comes inside and begins to regenerate us until we are glorified. Jesus will not lose anyone who God calls to him. The Holy Spirit will preserver and turn us back to our Savior one way or another. Amazing Grace ! Thank you God for your mercy to have saved a wretch like me! The old has passed away and all things have become new! I am so humbled !

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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We enter a morgue and find several corpses lying naked on metal tables. We walk to the first corpse and hang a sign around its neck that says "alive". We go to the second corpse and completely cover it in wax and makeup to change the pale blue complexion to something that looks natural. The third corpse is covered in makeup, dressed in clothes and propped up in a chair in a natural pose with a drink in its hand. God raises the fourth corpse from the dead, it dresses itself.

 

All four 'corpses' claim to be alive and have some evidence to support the claim, but how many of them really are alive and how many are still just corpses pretending to be alive?

(Salvation is like that. One fake is pretty much like another, but the real thing leaves a permanent change on a whole different level.)

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I believe when we call ourselves saved, we are prophesying the future. Jesus says he that endures to the end shall be saved. I think it is OK with God to call ourselves saved as long as we keep the proper mental attitude. Once our hearts are fixed (like David) on Jesus, nothing will prevent us from finishing. When God calls things that are not as though they were, He is also prophesying the future. Think about it.

 

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John 3:1-8 (NKJV)

There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.

This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."

Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"

Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

 

 

When you are born physically! Is that a prophecy of the future or did it happen when you took your first breath? When you are born again spiritually by God's mercy and not by works ! Is that a prophecy or is it when you have confessed with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus rose from the dead. My friend you can not believe in your heart that Jesus rose from the dead without the Holy Spirit being present and you will know it when it happens.

 

 

 

 

 

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John 3:1-8 (NKJV)

There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.

This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."

Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"

Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

 

 

When you are born physically! Is that a prophecy of the future or did it happen when you took your first breath? When you are born again spiritually by God's mercy and not by works ! Is that a prophecy or is it when you have confessed with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus rose from the dead. My friend you can not believe in your heart that Jesus rose from the dead without the Holy Spirit being present and you will know it when it happens.

 

 

 

 

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it pleaseth... so is everyone that is born of the Spirit." Jesus used the wind to illustrate how the Spirit regenerates. The wind is an element which man can neither harness nor hinder. The wind neither consults man's pleasure nor can it be regulated by his devices. So it is with the Spirit. The wind blows when it pleases, where it pleases, as it pleases. So it is with the Spirit. The wind is regulated by Divine wisdom, yet, so far as man is concerned, it is absolutely Sovereign in its operations. So it is with the Spirit. Sometimes the wind blows so softly it scarcely rustles a leaf; at other times it blows so loudly that its roar can be heard for miles. So it is in the matter of the new birth; with some the Holy Spirit deals so gently that His work is imperceptible to human onlookers; with others His action is so powerful, radical, revolutionary, that His operations are patent to many. Sometimes the wind is purely local in its reach, at other times widespread in its scope. So it is with the Spirit: today He acts on one or two souls, tomorrow He may, as at Pentecost, "prick in the heart" a whole multitude. But whether He works on few or many He consults not man. He acts as He pleases. The new birth is due to the Sovereign will of the Spirit

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Jesus says he that endures to the end shall be saved.

Will they be saved because they endure or do they endure because they are saved?

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Will they be saved because they endure or do they endure because they are saved?

The $64,000 question.

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Well, I agree, the spirit is like you claim. It is like the wind, we can't see it or harness it. But you can tell by the fruits of the spirit. The spirit is invisable to us, but the change in our lives is visible.

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My salvation is highly visible to me. It is apparent in my lifestyle. I referred it to a future event because if God reneges on His word, then we are dead indeed. I do not worry about God keeping His word: I know He will. I refute the idea that we are already immortal. I'm convinced that once we die, we are asleep in our graves awaiting resurrection. :RpS_thumbsup:

Edited by deade
Clarity

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Thanks for the clarification! The Holy Spirit although invisible , lives inside of me and is my Paraclete. Most of His guidance comes when I spend time in the Word! However I still refuse to listen at times because of my pride and sinful nature ! Struggle with it from time to time. Hopefully there is enough good fruit to pick.

 

 

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