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Just Mike

Calvinism; here is a statement I read today.

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A person posted this recently "are some born already lost." I think this is worthy of Biblical proof, one way or the other. Would you please share your thoughts.

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I believe that statement would imply that some people, no matter what they choose to do, will be lost. But the Bible says otherwise: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16.

 

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38

 

"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." 1 Timothy 2:4-6

 

"That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us...we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent." Acts 17:27-30

 

Some might argue this and point to Romans 9:19-21, saying that God creates people to be lost in order to show His wrath, but verse 22 says "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." It is obvious that God endured with longsuffering toward those who hardened their hearts and became fit for destruction. God does not deliberately harden their hearts, rather He sends them truth, but they harden their hearts and choose not to obey and believe in God. "As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." Romans 9:33.

 

"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." Romans 3:22-24. God desires that all men be saved (2 Peter 3:9). God bless!

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I believe that statement would imply that some people, no matter what they choose to do, will be lost. But the Bible says otherwise: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16.

 

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38

 

"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." 1 Timothy 2:4-6

 

"That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us...we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent." Acts 17:27-30

 

Some might argue this and point to Romans 9:19-21, saying that God creates people to be lost in order to show His wrath, but verse 22 says "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." It is obvious that God endured with longsuffering toward those who hardened their hearts and became fit for destruction. God does not deliberately harden their hearts, rather He sends them truth, but they harden their hearts and choose not to obey and believe in God. "As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." Romans 9:33.

 

"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." Romans 3:22-24. God desires that all men be saved (2 Peter 3:9). God bless!

 

Romans 9:10 "And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; (11) for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, (12) it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." (13) "Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED,"

Romans 9:15 "For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

 

Romans 9:21-24 says "Or does the potter have a right over the clay, tp make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?" (22) What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?" (23) "And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, (24) even us, whom He called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles."

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Read Romans 9:10-33. These verses show God does loves some people, and hates others, even while yet in the womb. Some people are called, some are not Now the question? Is this predestination, or God knowing what each person is going to do?

 

I think Calvinist would say God makes these choices, Others will say that God knowing everything, knows the free will choice people will make

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Read Romans 9:10-33. These verses show God does loves some people, and hates others, even while yet in the womb. Some people are called, some are not Now the question? Is this predestination, or God knowing what each person is going to do?

 

I think Calvinist would say God makes these choices, Others will say that God knowing everything, knows the free will choice people will make

 

Yes, I would agree that God knows all things and declares the end from the beginning, and things that have not yet taken place (Isaiah 46:10). I don't believe God hates anyone, rather I believe He hates their sin (when God declares He hates Esau, He is speaking of the apostasy that would result from him and his descendants). An argument can be made for either side, but one has to believe either that God is love and wants all to be saved, or that He hates some and predestines them to be destroyed for no other reason than that He is God and can do what He wants. I prefer to believe the former and there are many scriptures to support that God loves all His creation and has made a way for all to be saved if they would but trust in Him and receive His salvation. God bless.

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A person posted this recently "are some born already lost." I think this is worthy of Biblical proof, one way or the other. Would you please share your thoughts.

 

You're touching upon the Reformed doctrine of "Double Predestination". Notice the doctrine of double predestination is conveyed in two ways, a positive - positive schema, and a positive - negative schema. Only the positive - negative schema is historically orthodox.

 

The Double-Predestination Distortion

 

The distortion of double predestination looks like this: There is a symmetry that exists between election and reprobation. God works in the same way and same manner with respect to the elect and to the reprobate. That is to say, from all eternity God decreed some to election and by divine initiative works faith in their hearts and brings them actively to salvation. By the same token, from all eternity God decrees some to sin and damnation (destinare ad peccatum) and actively intervenes to work sin in their lives, bringing them to damnation by divine initiative. In the case of the elect, regeneration is the monergistic work of God. In the case of the reprobate, sin and degeneration are the monergistic work of God. Stated another way, we can establish a parallelism of foreordination and predestination by means of a positive symmetry. We can call this a positive-positive view of predestination. This is, God positively and actively intervenes in the lives of the elect to bring them to salvation. In the same way God positively and actively intervenes in the life of the reprobate to bring him to sin.

 

This distortion of positive-positive predestination clearly makes God the author of sin who punishes a person for doing what God monergistically and irresistibly coerces man to do. Such a view is indeed a monstrous assault on the integrity of God. This is not the Reformed view of predestination, but a gross and inexcusable caricature of the doctrine. Such a view may be identified with what is often loosely described as hyper-Calvinism and involves a radical form of supralapsarianism. Such a view of predestination has been virtually universally and monolithically rejected by Reformed thinkers.

 

The Reformed View of Predestination

 

In sharp contrast to the caricature of double predestination seen in the positive-positive schema is the classic position of Reformed theology on predestination. In this view predestination is double in that it involves both election and reprobation but is not symmetrical with respect to the mode of divine activity. A strict parallelism of operation is denied. Rather we view predestination in terms of a positive-negative relationship.

 

In the Reformed view God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace. To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves. He does not monergistically work sin or unbelief in their lives. Even in the case of the “hardening” of the sinners’ already recalcitrant hearts, God does not, as Luther stated, “work evil in us (for hardening is working evil) by creating fresh evil in us.”2 Luther continued:

 

When men hear us say that God works both good and evil in us, and that we are subject to God’s working by mere passive necessity, they seem to imagine a man who is in himself good, and not evil, having an evil work wrought in him by God; for they do not sufficiently bear in mind how incessantly active God is in all His creatures, allowing none of them to keep holiday. He who would understand these matters, however, should think thus: God works evil in us (that is, by means of us) not through God’s own fault, but by reason of our own defect. We being evil by nature, and God being good, when He impels us to act by His own acting upon us according to the nature of His omnipotence, good though He is in Himself, He cannot but do evil by our evil instrumentality; although, according to His wisdom, He makes good use of this evil for His own glory and for our salvation.2

 

Thus, the mode of operation in the lives of the elect is not parallel with that operation in the lives of the reprobate. God works regeneration monergistically but never sin. Sin falls within the category of providential concurrence.

 

Source: https://www.christforums.org/forum/c...predestination

 

All men left to themselves perish. Everyone one of us was spiritually dead in sin and trespasses, and if God does not positively intervene (monergism) we shall all perish. That is, God monergistically intervenes in the lives of the Elect, and He passes over others, leaving them to themselves (depraved nature).

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Read Romans 9:10-33. These verses show God does loves some people, and hates others, even while yet in the womb. Some people are called, some are not Now the question? Is this predestination, or God knowing what each person is going to do?

 

I think Calvinist would say God makes these choices, Others will say that God knowing everything, knows the free will choice people will make

Foreknew.jpg.0827483ede75e9de975d8500f38b6e66.jpg

 

 

The chapter before, Romans 8:29 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

 

As you already indicated Romans 9 says before the twins Jacob and Esau had done anything good or bad, the emphasis is not on works. Lets turn back to Chapter 8:

 

There's nothing in Romans 8:29 to indicate the future works of people. The object of God’s foreknowledge in Romans 8:29 is people (those whom). To know in the Hebrew Scriptures is to know intimately, as Adam did Eve when they conceived their son (Genesis 4:1). The word is frequently used to describe God’s election of his people. Genesis 18:19 says of Abraham, “For I have chosen [known] him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.” The Lord knew of every child before he or she was born, so he must have something more intimate in mind when in speaking to Jeremiah when he said, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations” (Jeremiah 1:5). Similar uses abound in the Old Testament (c.f. Psalm 1:6, 144:3; Hosea 13:4-5, Amos 3:2).

 

In contrast to this loving knowledge of souls, God will declare to rebels “‘I never knew you” (Matthew 7:22, Matthew 25:11-12). Notice, the verse says, "I" and not "you". That is, Christ says He never knew them, and not that You or they never knew Him. Christ is obviously omniscient knowing them too much, therefore, it was a personal intimate knowledge that Christ did not have for them.

 

Foreknew can be used synonymously with foreloved. In Romans 8:29, therefore, God set His affections or foreloved "those whom" He predestined, that's the cause or reason, and not their future decisions or works.

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Read Romans 9:10-33. These verses show God does loves some people, and hates others, even while yet in the womb. Some people are called, some are not Now the question? Is this predestination, or God knowing what each person is going to do?

 

I think Calvinist would say God makes these choices, Others will say that God knowing everything, knows the free will choice people will make

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"center","data-size":"custom","height":"425","width":"425","data-attachmentid":60586}[/ATTACH]

 

 

The chapter before, Romans 8:29 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

 

As you already indicated Romans 9 says before the twins Jacob and Esau had done anything good or bad, the emphasis is not on works. Lets turn back to Chapter 8:

 

There's nothing in Romans 8:29 to indicate the future works of people. The object of God’s foreknowledge in Romans 8:29 is people (those whom). To know in the Hebrew Scriptures is to know intimately, as Adam did Eve when they conceived their son (Genesis 4:1). The word is frequently used to describe God’s election of his people. Genesis 18:19 says of Abraham, “For I have chosen [known] him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.” The Lord knew of every child before he or she was born, so he must have something more intimate in mind when in speaking to Jeremiah when he said, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations” (Jeremiah 1:5). Similar uses abound in the Old Testament (c.f. Psalm 1:6, 144:3; Hosea 13:4-5, Amos 3:2).

 

In contrast to this loving knowledge of souls, God will declare to rebels “‘I never knew you” (Matthew 7:22, Matthew 25:11-12). Notice, the verse says, "I" and not "you". That is, Christ says He never knew them, and not that You or they never knew Him. Christ is obviously omniscient knowing them too much, therefore, it was a personal intimate knowledge that Christ did not have for them.

 

Foreknew can be used synonymously with foreloved. In Romans 8:29, therefore, God set His affections or foreloved "those whom" He predestined, that's the cause or reason, and not their future decisions or works.

I pray almost every night that my grand daughter (now 7 mths old) by "known" by God.

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[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"center","data-size":"custom","height":"425","width":"425","data-attachmentid":60586}[/ATTACH]

 

 

The chapter before, Romans 8:29 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

 

As you already indicated Romans 9 says before the twins Jacob and Esau had done anything good or bad, the emphasis is not on works. Lets turn back to Chapter 8:

 

There's nothing in Romans 8:29 to indicate the future works of people. The object of God’s foreknowledge in Romans 8:29 is people (those whom). To know in the Hebrew Scriptures is to know intimately, as Adam did Eve when they conceived their son (Genesis 4:1). The word is frequently used to describe God’s election of his people. Genesis 18:19 says of Abraham, “For I have chosen [known] him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.” The Lord knew of every child before he or she was born, so he must have something more intimate in mind when in speaking to Jeremiah when he said, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations” (Jeremiah 1:5). Similar uses abound in the Old Testament (c.f. Psalm 1:6, 144:3; Hosea 13:4-5, Amos 3:2).

 

In contrast to this loving knowledge of souls, God will declare to rebels “‘I never knew you” (Matthew 7:22, Matthew 25:11-12). Notice, the verse says, "I" and not "you". That is, Christ says He never knew them, and not that You or they never knew Him. Christ is obviously omniscient knowing them too much, therefore, it was a personal intimate knowledge that Christ did not have for them.

 

Foreknew can be used synonymously with foreloved. In Romans 8:29, therefore, God set His affections or foreloved "those whom" He predestined, that's the cause or reason, and not their future decisions or works.

 

William; I am going to have to reread your last two post's. In all honesty I am confused. I openly admit I do not some of the words you are using, I am going to have to look them up. Your command of the English language is excellent. I feel like a second grader reading a college level paper.

 

I am but at a basic understanding of Calvinism. I don't mean to cause you any issues, but I am overwhelmed right now. God bless you. Have you been to seminary William? You could easily been a professor with your knowledge. You are not only wise but gentle in spirit, its clear you are a man after Gods own heart.

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I believe that statement would imply that some people, no matter what they choose to do, will be lost. But the Bible says otherwise: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16.

 

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38

 

"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." 1 Timothy 2:4-6

 

"That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us...we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent." Acts 17:27-30

 

Some might argue this and point to Romans 9:19-21, saying that God creates people to be lost in order to show His wrath, but verse 22 says "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." It is obvious that God endured with longsuffering toward those who hardened their hearts and became fit for destruction. God does not deliberately harden their hearts, rather He sends them truth, but they harden their hearts and choose not to obey and believe in God. "As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." Romans 9:33.

 

"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." Romans 3:22-24. God desires that all men be saved (2 Peter 3:9). God bless!

 

Its not that no matter what they do that they will be lost, but it is what they will not and can not do. The "whosoever" are the elect because the elect are the only ones who believe. The word "world" doesn't necessarily mean all people at all times, it can also mean all nations, not just Jews.

 

​​​​​​

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The chapter before, Romans 8:29 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

 

As you already indicated Romans 9 says before the twins Jacob and Esau had done anything good or bad, the emphasis is not on works. Lets turn back to Chapter 8:

 

There's nothing in Romans 8:29 to indicate the future works of people. The object of God’s foreknowledge in Romans 8:29 is people (those whom). To know in the Hebrew Scriptures is to know intimately, as Adam did Eve when they conceived their son (Genesis 4:1). The word is frequently used to describe God’s election of his people. Genesis 18:19 says of Abraham, “For I have chosen [known] him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.” The Lord knew of every child before he or she was born, so he must have something more intimate in mind when in speaking to Jeremiah when he said, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations” (Jeremiah 1:5). Similar uses abound in the Old Testament (c.f. Psalm 1:6, 144:3; Hosea 13:4-5, Amos 3:2).

 

In contrast to this loving knowledge of souls, God will declare to rebels “‘I never knew you” (Matthew 7:22, Matthew 25:11-12). Notice, the verse says, "I" and not "you". That is, Christ says He never knew them, and not that You or they never knew Him. Christ is obviously omniscient knowing them too much, therefore, it was a personal intimate knowledge that Christ did not have for them.

 

Foreknew can be used synonymously with foreloved. In Romans 8:29, therefore, God set His affections or foreloved "those whom" He predestined, that's the cause or reason, and not their future decisions or works.

 

William; I am going to have to reread your last two post's. In all honesty I am confused. I openly admit I do not some of the words you are using, I am going to have to look them up. Your command of the English language is excellent. I feel like a second grader reading a college level paper.

 

I am but at a basic understanding of Calvinism. I don't mean to cause you any issues, but I am overwhelmed right now. God bless you. Have you been to seminary William? You could easily been a professor with your knowledge. You are not only wise but gentle in spirit, its clear you are a man after Gods own heart.

Don't "sweat it" Justme. We are all over whelmed by various doctrines. It is confusing. So many contrary opinions. My advice: read a book on Systematic Theology... that will give you a good foundation.

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[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"center","data-size":"custom","height":"425","width":"425","data-attachmentid":60586}[/ATTACH]

 

 

The chapter before, Romans 8:29 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

 

As you already indicated Romans 9 says before the twins Jacob and Esau had done anything good or bad, the emphasis is not on works. Lets turn back to Chapter 8:

 

There's nothing in Romans 8:29 to indicate the future works of people. The object of God’s foreknowledge in Romans 8:29 is people (those whom). To know in the Hebrew Scriptures is to know intimately, as Adam did Eve when they conceived their son (Genesis 4:1). The word is frequently used to describe God’s election of his people. Genesis 18:19 says of Abraham, “For I have chosen [known] him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.” The Lord knew of every child before he or she was born, so he must have something more intimate in mind when in speaking to Jeremiah when he said, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations” (Jeremiah 1:5). Similar uses abound in the Old Testament (c.f. Psalm 1:6, 144:3; Hosea 13:4-5, Amos 3:2).

 

In contrast to this loving knowledge of souls, God will declare to rebels “‘I never knew you” (Matthew 7:22, Matthew 25:11-12). Notice, the verse says, "I" and not "you". That is, Christ says He never knew them, and not that You or they never knew Him. Christ is obviously omniscient knowing them too much, therefore, it was a personal intimate knowledge that Christ did not have for them.

 

Foreknew can be used synonymously with foreloved. In Romans 8:29, therefore, God set His affections or foreloved "those whom" He predestined, that's the cause or reason, and not their future decisions or works.

 

William; I am going to have to reread your last two post's. In all honesty I am confused. I openly admit I do not some of the words you are using, I am going to have to look them up. Your command of the English language is excellent. I feel like a second grader reading a college level paper.

 

I am but at a basic understanding of Calvinism. I don't mean to cause you any issues, but I am overwhelmed right now. God bless you. Have you been to seminary William? You could easily been a professor with your knowledge. You are not only wise but gentle in spirit, its clear you are a man after Gods own heart.

If it wasn't for men like R.C. Sproll and Bottner I'd be confused by most of this probably. If anything theological terminology was one of the most confusing things for me.

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William; I am going to have to reread your last two post's. In all honesty I am confused. I openly admit I do not some of the words you are using, I am going to have to look them up. Your command of the English language is excellent. I feel like a second grader reading a college level paper.

 

I am but at a basic understanding of Calvinism. I don't mean to cause you any issues, but I am overwhelmed right now. God bless you. Have you been to seminary William? You could easily been a professor with your knowledge. You are not only wise but gentle in spirit, its clear you are a man after Gods own heart.

 

No problem, brother, lemme emphasize the simple basic T in TULIP while attempting to leave out all the theological jargon. The only emphasis I am keeping in mind while writing this out is to keep pointing towards God rather than man.

 

"Total depravity," also called "total inability," asserts that as a consequence of the fall of man into sin, every person is enslaved to sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God but rather to serve their own interests and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures. (The term "total" in this context refers to sin affecting every part of a person, not that every person is as evil as they could be). This doctrine is derived from Augustine's explanation of Original Sin. While the phrases "totally depraved" and "utterly perverse" were used by Calvin, what was meant was the inability to save oneself from sin rather than being absent of goodness.

 

We are stating that by nature the human will possesses no inclination to holiness until born again.

 

Therefore, lets ask the question, if the natural man has no inclination towards holiness or God, then will man left to himself perish?

 

If yes, then we must ask whether God passes them by in this condition and/or fails in His attempt to save them?

 

The Positive-Negative schema of double predestination states that God intervenes in the lives of the Elect bringing them to salvation (positive). And God passes by the reprobate, leaving them to depravity, a will enslaved to sin (negative) where they continue on towards their very own destruction.

 

Now I ask can we place the blame on the shoulders of God in the case of the non-elect reprobate? After all, God does not save them, He passes them by, so do we blame Him or does all accountability and responsibility rests on the shoulders of the reprobate? Lets clarify the question, is God unrighteous if He condemns the reprobate to eternal damnation for all their sins, even their original sin?

 

My answer is no, the reprobate are held accountable for, and responsible for all their sins. Nobody can say God forced me to sin, because we are sinners by nature. Nobody acts contrary to their nature, unless a supernatural intervention occurs (monergism). Otherwise, we force our sense of "fairness" upon God and object to His grace which is unmerited favor to those whom He chooses. We become like the vessels of clay objecting to the potter, blaming everyone but ourselves for our sins.

 

I believe the negative schema of double predestination attempts to answer these points and questions, whereas some leave it simply to mystery.

 

God bless,

William

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The chapter before, Romans 8:29 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

 

As you already indicated Romans 9 says before the twins Jacob and Esau had done anything good or bad, the emphasis is not on works. Lets turn back to Chapter 8:

 

There's nothing in Romans 8:29 to indicate the future works of people. The object of God’s foreknowledge in Romans 8:29 is people (those whom). To know in the Hebrew Scriptures is to know intimately, as Adam did Eve when they conceived their son (Genesis 4:1). The word is frequently used to describe God’s election of his people. Genesis 18:19 says of Abraham, “For I have chosen [known] him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.” The Lord knew of every child before he or she was born, so he must have something more intimate in mind when in speaking to Jeremiah when he said, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations” (Jeremiah 1:5). Similar uses abound in the Old Testament (c.f. Psalm 1:6, 144:3; Hosea 13:4-5, Amos 3:2).

 

In contrast to this loving knowledge of souls, God will declare to rebels “‘I never knew you” (Matthew 7:22, Matthew 25:11-12). Notice, the verse says, "I" and not "you". That is, Christ says He never knew them, and not that You or they never knew Him. Christ is obviously omniscient knowing them too much, therefore, it was a personal intimate knowledge that Christ did not have for them.

 

Foreknew can be used synonymously with foreloved. In Romans 8:29, therefore, God set His affections or foreloved "those whom" He predestined, that's the cause or reason, and not their future decisions or works.

 

William; I am going to have to reread your last two post's. In all honesty I am confused. I openly admit I do not some of the words you are using, I am going to have to look them up. Your command of the English language is excellent. I feel like a second grader reading a college level paper.

 

I am but at a basic understanding of Calvinism. I don't mean to cause you any issues, but I am overwhelmed right now. God bless you. Have you been to seminary William? You could easily been a professor with your knowledge. You are not only wise but gentle in spirit, its clear you are a man after Gods own heart.

@Fastfredy0, just curious, on "contrary opinions" do you consider a truth exegeted or inferred from Scripture to be an opinion? Hope you don't mind me asking?

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Read Romans 9:10-33. These verses show God does loves some people, and hates others, even while yet in the womb. Some people are called, some are not Now the question? Is this predestination, or God knowing what each person is going to do?

 

I think Calvinist would say God makes these choices, Others will say that God knowing everything, knows the free will choice people will make

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The chapter before, Romans 8:29 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

 

As you already indicated Romans 9 says before the twins Jacob and Esau had done anything good or bad, the emphasis is not on works. Lets turn back to Chapter 8:

 

There's nothing in Romans 8:29 to indicate the future works of people. The object of God’s foreknowledge in Romans 8:29 is people (those whom). To know in the Hebrew Scriptures is to know intimately, as Adam did Eve when they conceived their son (Genesis 4:1). The word is frequently used to describe God’s election of his people. Genesis 18:19 says of Abraham, “For I have chosen [known] him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.” The Lord knew of every child before he or she was born, so he must have something more intimate in mind when in speaking to Jeremiah when he said, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations” (Jeremiah 1:5). Similar uses abound in the Old Testament (c.f. Psalm 1:6, 144:3; Hosea 13:4-5, Amos 3:2).

 

In contrast to this loving knowledge of souls, God will declare to rebels “‘I never knew you” (Matthew 7:22, Matthew 25:11-12). Notice, the verse says, "I" and not "you". That is, Christ says He never knew them, and not that You or they never knew Him. Christ is obviously omniscient knowing them too much, therefore, it was a personal intimate knowledge that Christ did not have for them.

 

Foreknew can be used synonymously with foreloved. In Romans 8:29, therefore, God set His affections or foreloved "those whom" He predestined, that's the cause or reason, and not their future decisions or works.

@Fastfredy0, I think reminding God of His promises is right in our prayers. I think God uses ordinary means (prayers) to prepare us for His glory which can be known during fulfillment of His promises Acts 2:38-39; Acts 16:31 for example. Recommended reading: https://www.ligonier.org/blog/pray-your-childrens-salvation/

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The chapter before, Romans 8:29 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

 

As you already indicated Romans 9 says before the twins Jacob and Esau had done anything good or bad, the emphasis is not on works. Lets turn back to Chapter 8:

 

There's nothing in Romans 8:29 to indicate the future works of people. The object of God’s foreknowledge in Romans 8:29 is people (those whom). To know in the Hebrew Scriptures is to know intimately, as Adam did Eve when they conceived their son (Genesis 4:1). The word is frequently used to describe God’s election of his people. Genesis 18:19 says of Abraham, “For I have chosen [known] him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.” The Lord knew of every child before he or she was born, so he must have something more intimate in mind when in speaking to Jeremiah when he said, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations” (Jeremiah 1:5). Similar uses abound in the Old Testament (c.f. Psalm 1:6, 144:3; Hosea 13:4-5, Amos 3:2).

 

In contrast to this loving knowledge of souls, God will declare to rebels “‘I never knew you” (Matthew 7:22, Matthew 25:11-12). Notice, the verse says, "I" and not "you". That is, Christ says He never knew them, and not that You or they never knew Him. Christ is obviously omniscient knowing them too much, therefore, it was a personal intimate knowledge that Christ did not have for them.

 

Foreknew can be used synonymously with foreloved. In Romans 8:29, therefore, God set His affections or foreloved "those whom" He predestined, that's the cause or reason, and not their future decisions or works.

 

William; I am going to have to reread your last two post's. In all honesty I am confused. I openly admit I do not some of the words you are using, I am going to have to look them up. Your command of the English language is excellent. I feel like a second grader reading a college level paper.

 

I am but at a basic understanding of Calvinism. I don't mean to cause you any issues, but I am overwhelmed right now. God bless you. Have you been to seminary William? You could easily been a professor with your knowledge. You are not only wise but gentle in spirit, its clear you are a man after Gods own heart.

Fastfredy0, just curious, on "contrary opinions" do you consider a truth exegeted or inferred from Scripture to be an opinion? Hope you don't mind me asking?

 

I don't mind anyone asking and I always look forward to your perspective on matters.

I am not sure I understand the question. But this is my answer as I understand the question.

 

Given that definition of an "opinion" is a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge; thus anyone's idea on a subject is an opinion. Regardless of whether the opinion is based on truth or fairy tales or scripture, it is still an opinion/judgment.

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The chapter before, Romans 8:29 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

 

As you already indicated Romans 9 says before the twins Jacob and Esau had done anything good or bad, the emphasis is not on works. Lets turn back to Chapter 8:

 

There's nothing in Romans 8:29 to indicate the future works of people. The object of God’s foreknowledge in Romans 8:29 is people (those whom). To know in the Hebrew Scriptures is to know intimately, as Adam did Eve when they conceived their son (Genesis 4:1). The word is frequently used to describe God’s election of his people. Genesis 18:19 says of Abraham, “For I have chosen [known] him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.” The Lord knew of every child before he or she was born, so he must have something more intimate in mind when in speaking to Jeremiah when he said, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations” (Jeremiah 1:5). Similar uses abound in the Old Testament (c.f. Psalm 1:6, 144:3; Hosea 13:4-5, Amos 3:2).

 

In contrast to this loving knowledge of souls, God will declare to rebels “‘I never knew you” (Matthew 7:22, Matthew 25:11-12). Notice, the verse says, "I" and not "you". That is, Christ says He never knew them, and not that You or they never knew Him. Christ is obviously omniscient knowing them too much, therefore, it was a personal intimate knowledge that Christ did not have for them.

 

Foreknew can be used synonymously with foreloved. In Romans 8:29, therefore, God set His affections or foreloved "those whom" He predestined, that's the cause or reason, and not their future decisions or works.

 

William; I am going to have to reread your last two post's. In all honesty I am confused. I openly admit I do not some of the words you are using, I am going to have to look them up. Your command of the English language is excellent. I feel like a second grader reading a college level paper.

 

I am but at a basic understanding of Calvinism. I don't mean to cause you any issues, but I am overwhelmed right now. God bless you. Have you been to seminary William? You could easily been a professor with your knowledge. You are not only wise but gentle in spirit, its clear you are a man after Gods own heart.

As an example: 1 Corinthians 7:25-40 Now concerning the betrothed, I have no command from the Lord, but I give my judgment as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy. And then there's 1 Corinthians 7:6 Now as a concession, not a command, I say this.

 

The above are considered by some to be the greatest "opinion pieces" in Scripture. I was just curious as to whether you distinguish an opinion that is in harmony with Scripture as truth, rather than dismissing it because it was not written "as is per verbatim" in Scripture? That's why you struck my curiosity. I have ran into some people that have dismissed the above Scriptures based on the fact that they are an opinion piece. Of course, I don't think you meant dismiss something because it is an opinion, that is, if we are to keep in the spirit of the Bereans.

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The chapter before, Romans 8:29 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

 

As you already indicated Romans 9 says before the twins Jacob and Esau had done anything good or bad, the emphasis is not on works. Lets turn back to Chapter 8:

 

There's nothing in Romans 8:29 to indicate the future works of people. The object of God’s foreknowledge in Romans 8:29 is people (those whom). To know in the Hebrew Scriptures is to know intimately, as Adam did Eve when they conceived their son (Genesis 4:1). The word is frequently used to describe God’s election of his people. Genesis 18:19 says of Abraham, “For I have chosen [known] him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.” The Lord knew of every child before he or she was born, so he must have something more intimate in mind when in speaking to Jeremiah when he said, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations” (Jeremiah 1:5). Similar uses abound in the Old Testament (c.f. Psalm 1:6, 144:3; Hosea 13:4-5, Amos 3:2).

 

In contrast to this loving knowledge of souls, God will declare to rebels “‘I never knew you” (Matthew 7:22, Matthew 25:11-12). Notice, the verse says, "I" and not "you". That is, Christ says He never knew them, and not that You or they never knew Him. Christ is obviously omniscient knowing them too much, therefore, it was a personal intimate knowledge that Christ did not have for them.

 

Foreknew can be used synonymously with foreloved. In Romans 8:29, therefore, God set His affections or foreloved "those whom" He predestined, that's the cause or reason, and not their future decisions or works.

 

William; I am going to have to reread your last two post's. In all honesty I am confused. I openly admit I do not some of the words you are using, I am going to have to look them up. Your command of the English language is excellent. I feel like a second grader reading a college level paper.

 

I am but at a basic understanding of Calvinism. I don't mean to cause you any issues, but I am overwhelmed right now. God bless you. Have you been to seminary William? You could easily been a professor with your knowledge. You are not only wise but gentle in spirit, its clear you are a man after Gods own heart.

Aside: I favor the attitude of the Bereans – the “show me the proof” guys

 

Concerning the two passages in 1 Cor. 7 … They confounded me for a long time. I understood these passages as an insertion of a man’s opinion into scripture and thought that didn’t “feel right”. Later, I read a commentary that said something like … Paul left the scene (Arabia, to lazy to look it up) for 3 years in which he got direct revelation from Christ. Subsequently, Paul writes Corinthians and sometimes he writes from what Christ (2nd member of Trinity) told him directly; where Paul writes that it is “not from the Lord” it means Christ did not tell him this directly; rather, it is the Spirit that is inspiring him to write it. (Technically, I think the scripture says the Spirit inspires the writer (Paul) to write what Christ tells the Spirit…so indirectly it is Christ telling Paul what to write but I digress.)

 

Maybe to the crux of the question …

“I was just curious as to whether you distinguish an opinion that is in harmony with Scripture as truth,”

… no I do not regard an opinion in harmony with scripture to necessarily be truth. Why … I can have two contrary opinions that harmonize with scripture; they both can’t be true. As an example, and as you know, a commentary will often present contrary explanations that both harmonize with scripture. Aside: If an opinion does not harmonize with scripture then it cannot be true.

 

“rather than dismissing it because it was not written "as is per verbatim" in Scripture?”

.. I would not use the word “dismiss”. I try to weigh the opinions based on my bias’ (which I dislike but I am stuck with it, knowledge, reliance of superior theologians, etc. I have a strong preference for a literal interpretation but realize there is topology, parables and analogies. If it is not literal I subjectively delegate the opinion to be of less significance as it is difficult to verify.

 

Everyone’s theology is wrong, they just don’t know where. I wish the Spirit would harmonize our opinions ... Sproul said something like the Spirit doesn't harmonize because of our sin nature ... sigh

 

Enjoyed the conversation.

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Thank you brother, I have downloaded a lot on Calvinism. I bought a two volume set Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion. Do you know anything of these books? It is quite lengthy 1724 pages. I am just looking over it slightly for now.

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Calvin's Institutes is a great place to start and well worth the effort to read. It was used of God (among other works) to bring me to the Doctrines of Grace. Also it will show you what Calvin taught as compared to many of the later distortions of his doctrines.Also any commentaries by Calvin that you can procure are well worth the investment.

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Thank you brother, I have downloaded a lot on Calvinism. I bought a two volume set Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion. Do you know anything of these books? It is quite lengthy 1724 pages. I am just looking over it slightly for now.

It's a Systematic Theology book. It organizes the bibles into various topics.

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Calvin's Institutes is a great place to start and well worth the effort to read. It was used of God (among other works) to bring me to the Doctrines of Grace. Also it will show you what Calvin taught as compared to many of the later distortions of his doctrines.Also any commentaries by Calvin that you can procure are well worth the investment.

 

I am not sure if I will live long enough to read all of it. Maybe the Rapture will happen and that will be that.

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I am not sure if I will live long enough to read all of it. Maybe the Rapture will happen and that will be that.

 

Yeah, where are the Cliffnotes when you need them. ;)

 

Here is a link to a much shorter "Reformed Theology for Dummies" (actually called the Heidelberg Catechism).

It is free, online, easy to read and I like the way it discusses things.

After that you can move on to the Westminster Confession of Faith, which is much less fun to read but covers EVERYTHING in a lot more detail (and as an added bonus, you can stand on it and remain safe from any flood*). [*just my opinion]

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Thank you brother, I have downloaded a lot on Calvinism. I bought a two volume set Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion. Do you know anything of these books? It is quite lengthy 1724 pages. I am just looking over it slightly for now.

Enjoy your reading of Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion. And yes, I own the book but have to complete it. Very insightful.

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Yeah, where are the Cliffnotes when you need them. ;)

 

Here is a link to a much shorter "Reformed Theology for Dummies" (actually called the Heidelberg Catechism).

It is free, online, easy to read and I like the way it discusses things.

After that you can move on to the Westminster Confession of Faith, which is much less fun to read but covers EVERYTHING in a lot more detail (and as an added bonus, you can stand on it and remain safe from any flood*). [*just my opinion]

 

Thank you I put in my "favorites" box. It looks interesting, however my 2 volume set has an appeal all of its own. Sorta of a challenge to read all 1,700 pages before the Lord returns. Blessings and thanks.

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