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Can I ask a question that really makes me question my own understanding? Toward the end of the Gospel of John, after the resurrection, according to Mary Magdaline "Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” Why would Jesus refer to the apostles as "brothers"? If Jesus=God, I think he would not refer to them as brothers - especially if he created them.

 

There are countless discussions of how Jesus=God. Does the above passage trouble anyone else? It makes me think there are two things: The Son or Word and the person of Jesus. Can we have a discussion about this topic?

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Can I ask a question that really makes me question my own understanding? Toward the end of the Gospel of John, after the resurrection, according to Mary Magdaline "Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” Why would Jesus refer to the apostles as "brothers"? If Jesus=God, I think he would not refer to them as brothers - especially if he created them.

 

There are countless discussions of how Jesus=God. Does the above passage trouble anyone else? It makes me think there are two things: The Son or Word and the person of Jesus. Can we have a discussion about this topic?

 

Hi jpeter, first off, WELCOME TO CF :RpS_smile:

 

As for your OP, I believe the verse you are referring in it, John 20:17, deserves its ranking as one of the most difficult verses in the NT to properly exegete, but we can certainly discuss it if you'd like to. For me that will have to happen tomorrow however, because of the late hour here, so I look forward to talking to you then (Dv).

 

God bless you! (Numbers 6:24-26)

 

--David

p.s. - here's the short excerpt from one of my commentaries that I mentioned below:

 

I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God—words of incomparable glory! Jesus had called God habitually His Father, and on one occasion, in His darkest moment, His God. But both are here united, expressing that full-orbed relationship which embraces in its vast sweep at once Himself and His redeemed. Yet, note well, He says not, Our Father and our God. All the deepest of the Church fathers were wont to call attention to this, as expressly designed to distinguish between what God is to Him and to us—His Father essentially, ours not so: our God essentially, His not so: His God only in connection with us: our Father only in connection with Him. ~Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., & Brown, D. (1997). Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (Vol. 2, p. 169).

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Hi jpeter, first off, WELCOME TO CF :RpS_smile:

 

As for your OP, I believe the verse you are referring in it, John 20:17, deserves its ranking as one of the most difficult verses in the NT to properly exegete, but we can certainly discuss it if you'd like to. For me that will have to happen tomorrow however, because of the late hour here, so I look forward to talking to you then (Dv).

 

God bless you! (Numbers 6:24-26)

 

--David

 

Jesus says "your Father" because God is our Father. Jesus says my Father because God is the Father of the Son of God in the Godhead.

 

Am I missing something?

 

God bless,

William

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Jesus says "your Father" because God is our Father. Jesus says my Father because God is the Father of the Son of God in the Godhead.

 

Am I missing something?

 

God bless,

William

 

Hi William, I don't think so. By itself, that verse presents a number of challenges, not the least of which is the Lord's comment to Mary about not clinging to Him (when He seems to do just the opposite a little while later in John with St. Thomas). I'm going to add a short except to my post above about the "My Father/your Father//My God/your God" part. I look forward to discussing this further, but it's going to have to be tomorrow when I do so.

 

--David

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Toward the end of the Gospel of John, after the resurrection, according to Mary Magdaline "Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” Why would Jesus refer to the apostles as "brothers"? If Jesus=God, I think he would not refer to them as brothers - especially if he created them.

 

John 20:17 demonstrates that the Lord Jesus is a man while John 20:28 demonstrates that the Lord Jesus is God.

https://www.christforums.org/forum/c...-in-john-20-28

 

Those who believe in the biblical doctrine of the Trinity would expect to find some passages which teach the Lord Jesus is a man and other passages which teach the Lord Jesus is God.[*1] These do not contradict one another, but rather they complement each other.

1. Otto Hofius: He spoke of God as his Father ("my Father") and as the Father of the disciples ("your Father"). But he never joined with them together in a common "our Father" (the Lord's Prayer is a prayer for the disciples to use!) (NIDNTT 1:619, Father)

2. A. W. Pink: But mark His precision: He did not say "Our Father, and our God." He still maintains His pre-eminency, His uniqueness, for God is His Father and God in a singular and incommunicable manner.

http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/awp/john-20.html

 

 

[*1] Colossians 2:9 teaches that the Lord Jesus is both God and man.

https://www.christforums.org/forum/christian-community/god/60188-jesus-as-both-god-and-man-colossians-2-9

Edited by Faber
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Can I ask a question that really makes me question my own understanding? Toward the end of the Gospel of John, after the resurrection, according to Mary Magdaline "Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” Why would Jesus refer to the apostles as "brothers"? If Jesus=God, I think he would not refer to them as brothers - especially if he created them.

 

There are countless discussions of how Jesus=God. Does the above passage trouble anyone else? It makes me think there are two things: The Son or Word and the person of Jesus. Can we have a discussion about this topic?

 

Hi Peter:

 

Let me try to clear up your quandry.

 

God is both a title and a description of "nature". so Jesus can be god(nature) and call His Father God (title)

 

Though the trinity is equal in its nature (they are all equally divine and share the exact same "Godness" if you will). However they are not equal in position. the bible makes it clear that teh Father is above all !

 

in 1 Cor. 15; 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

 

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

 

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

 

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

 

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

so while they are equal in essence or nature- the son is inferior to the Father in position and the Spirit is inferior in position to the Son!

So there really is no conflict when Jesus is called God in JOhn 1:1 and yest calls the Father His god!

 

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Jesus says in Matthew 12:50 "For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." We are adopted into the Family of God (Ephesians 1:5), in which we become God's sons and daughters, which makes us brothers and sisters to Christ because He is the Son of God. Us being brothers to Christ does not make Him any less God the Son. Rather, it makes Christ all and in all (Colossians 3:11), but still subject to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:27).

 

Read Hebrews 2:10-18 and 3:1-6. I believe the main reason Jesus is our brother is because He had to be made like us in every way in order to be a merciful and faithful high priest, but He is still a part of the Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), just as those who are redeemed are called children of God: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2. God bless!

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In a nut shell

We believe there is only one God

Jesus (the Word) was God's first expression in creation

Also the Word had to become flesh (body) to be our kinsman redeemer

The word redeemed means to buy back - not purchase new - so if we were 'redeemed then we were forknown before the foundation of the world because we are part of God - part in the sense that we were in His thinking....

This is not to be confused with salvation which happens at the great white throne on judgement day.

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In a nut shell

We believe there is only one God

Jesus (the Word) was God's first expression in creation

Also the Word had to become flesh (body) to be our kinsman redeemer

The word redeemed means to buy back - not purchase new - so if we were 'redeemed then we were forknown before the foundation of the world because we are part of God - part in the sense that we were in His thinking....

This is not to be confused with salvation which happens at the great white throne on judgement day.

Jesus Christ is the 2nd person of the Godhead. The Godhead has always been.

 

A person becomes a believer / salvation takes place in the person in the here and now. A believer will be growing closer and closer to Christ-likeness. Our salvation will be complete when we are with Christ.

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In a nut shell

We believe there is only one God

Jesus (the Word) was God's first expression in creation

Also the Word had to become flesh (body) to be our kinsman redeemer

The word redeemed means to buy back - not purchase new - so if we were 'redeemed then we were forknown before the foundation of the world because we are part of God - part in the sense that we were in His thinking....

This is not to be confused with salvation which happens at the great white throne on judgement day.

Woa....

 

Jesus was God's first expression in creation? What do you mean by that? By that are you saying Jesus did not always exist prior to creation?

 

Also, we are part of God, and being in his thoughts are not the same thing. That's very dangerous and starts to sound like some heretical teaching.

 

Also, salvation happens at the moment of conversion.

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...

so while they are equal in essence or nature- the son is inferior to the Father in position and the Spirit is inferior in position to the Son!

So there really is no conflict when Jesus is called God in JOhn 1:1 and yest calls the Father His god!

 

I wouldn't use the term "inferior" here, and I accept that you have good intention in your post.

 

But I just wanted to say that the "positions" within the Godhead have nothing to do with rank, power or hierarchy, but a working relationship.

The Father, the Son and the Spirit may also, and could also assume different roles, and be named accordingly - the Father, Son or Spirit.

 

For example, the Spirit is the Spirit of the Father as well as of the Son. This doesn't automatically nullify his individual personality and equal standing within the Godhead, as some falsely teach.

 

We find in scripture that these titles, even the name "God" are applicable to all three, and the Bible even names the Son "Father." The Spirit is also referred to as "God."

So the names are not due to rank as defined by our world and its sub standards.

 

Speaking of birth, there are some people who like to mess with the Bible and say that the Son was born of the Father in some distant time. Which is nonsense, because the Word or the Son, was God and is God, "without beginning or ending," "from everlasting to everlasting."

The only time that Jesus was "begotten" of God, was when he chose to became human. (For Bible students, these terms are always used in the New T in relation to Jesus' humanity, but not his divinity).

 

When Jesus draws our attention to the "position" of the Father etc, he is talking about the order and harmony in the relationship, because none of the Godhead are interested in assuming a higher order. They all are meek and They are Givers in the supreme sense, which is demonstrated by their perfect unselfishness.

 

This harmonious order and relationship will never be changed by God, so we don't dare change it by, for instance, worshiping the Spirit, or declaring that we have direct access to the Father without Christ, etc.

 

When it comes to power, They are all equal in power. That isn't too hard to work out mathematically. God is infinite. All three are infinite. And infinity is candidly described in the Bible as "Life" or the "Living God."

Everything else, like creation, has absolutely no sustenance of its own, even though God made the universe a perfectly balanced economy of energy.

 

A study of the roles within the Godhead in creation shows that the Father gave all power to the Son. This doesn't mean that the Son is powerless or has less power at all, but that the Son gave up his own power equal to the Father, in order that creation might exist.

Because if none of the Godhead gave up their power, even momentarily as required, the creation intended would have absolutely no place to exist, simply because the power of God consumes anything inferior to it, and it required one of the Godhead to surrender his eternal power, in order for there to be any room for creation.

 

Such a change and exchange of power, is beyond our imagination, in fact it is so great and spontaneous, that only One equal with the Father and the Son - the Spirit, is the mediator of that transaction. And we find that what is true in creation is also true in salvation, that the Holy Spirit is the mediator for Christ on earth, and that Christ is the mediator for the world.

 

As the Spirit of God prepares the way for the light of creation, so the spirit prepares the hearts of the people to receive Christ the Light.

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This was very nicely done. Praise God.

 

 

 

I think though the only thing I disagree with is this part concerning the Holy Spirit.

"This harmonious order and relationship will never be changed by God, so we don't dare change it by, for instance, worshiping the Spirit, or declaring that we have direct access to the Father without Christ, etc."

 

The Holy Spirit is the proper recipient of worship.

 

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...” Why would Jesus refer to the apostles as "brothers"? If Jesus=God, I think he would not refer to them as brothers - especially if he created them.

 

...

 

It's a really good question, and the answer is a growing one, and as deep as the Love of God...the mystery of the incarnation...

 

The Son is the source of humanity, of human nature, he made human nature, just like he made the nature of animals etc.

God gives variety and individuality, even through common factors.

 

By becoming human, and having the human nature common to all, he was participating in human life as we do, and is our brother by birth into the race.

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....

 

The Holy Spirit is the proper recipient of worship.[/left]

 

Could you explain that to me please?

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The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit ought to be worshiped.

In terms of worshiping God in the name of the Holy Spirit this is to be done in water baptism in the name of the Triune God (cf. Matthew 28:19). Furthermore, John worships the Holy Spirit in that He is mentioned (along with the Father and the Son) as the source of "grace and peace" in the blessing pronounced in the beginning of the book of Revelation (Revelation 1:4). So if I say "May the grace of our Triune God be upon you" or "May the grace of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit be upon you," I am making a prayer to all 3.

 

 

I read in your profile that you belong to the Seventh Day Adventists. I found this from a SDA webs site:[*1]

"God is...worthy of worship... (Matt. 28:19)."

 

Do you agree with the article?

 

 

 

 

[*1] The full article (though brief) can be found here:

 

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15 hours ago, Faber said:

This was very nicely done. Praise God.

 

 

 

I think though the only thing I disagree with is this part concerning the Holy Spirit.

 

"This harmonious order and relationship will never be changed by God, so we don't dare change it by, for instance, worshiping the Spirit, or declaring that we have direct access to the Father without Christ, etc."

 

The Holy Spirit is the proper recipient of worship.

 

 

 

Can you give me any verse that says we are to worship the Holy Spirit? God the Father is our proper recipient of our worship as I read and understand the Bible. 

Jesus never prayed to the Holy Spirit or worshipped the Holy Spirit. 

 

I honestly doubt anyone can adequately describe the Trinity. In Deut. 29:29 it tells us there are some things that are known by God only, I think the Trinity  is a perfect example of us not knowing completely, and leaving that to YAHWEH.

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I have already given several verses that teach the Holy Spirit is the proper recipient of worship.

 

When you write, "God the Father is our proper recipient of worship" does it follow that the Lord Jesus is not our proper recipient of worship?

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The Three are One. We do not divide them for the purpose of worship. We worship the One.

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15 hours ago, Just Mike said:

Can you give me any verse that says we are to worship the Holy Spirit? God the Father is our proper recipient of our worship as I read and understand the Bible. 

Jesus never prayed to the Holy Spirit or worshipped the Holy Spirit. 

 

 

 I agree, there is no biblical example of worship addressing the Spirit - in worship we come to the Father, through the Son, by the Spirit.

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On 4/29/2018 at 3:06 PM, Faber said:

The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit ought to be worshiped.

In terms of worshiping God in the name of the Holy Spirit this is to be done in water baptism in the name of the Triune God (cf. Matthew 28:19). Furthermore, John worships the Holy Spirit in that He is mentioned (along with the Father and the Son) as the source of "grace and peace" in the blessing pronounced in the beginning of the book of Revelation (Revelation 1:4). So if I say "May the grace of our Triune God be upon you" or "May the grace of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit be upon you," I am making a prayer to all 3.

 

 

I read in your profile that you belong to the Seventh Day Adventists. I found this from a SDA webs site:[*1]

"God is...worthy of worship... (Matt. 28:19)."

 

Do you agree with the article?

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On 4/29/2018 at 3:06 PM, Faber said:

Do you agree with the article?

No I didn't read the article because I pretty much agree with you. 

But I was thinking that people must have different ideas about worship, even as applied to Holy Spirit worship, and I don't doubt that you would be aware of extremes in that area. But what you have put forward indicates a reverence for the Holy Spirit, as to God, and that is the tenor of the scriptures for sure.

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1 hour ago, reformed baptist said:

 

 I agree, there is no biblical example of worship addressing the Spirit - in worship we come to the Father, through the Son, by the Spirit.

 Is it proper to worship the Son?

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50 minutes ago, Faber said:

 Is it proper to worship the Son?

 

Yes

 

In scripture we clearly see the Son being worshiped - can you point to a text where we see the see the Spirit worshiped? 

 

I'm not talking about a text when you see the Spirit's name invoked in prayer, but where you see the Spirit being worshiped.  

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